Spooky dreams (not about the Amish) (Full Version)

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TheHeretic -> Spooky dreams (not about the Amish) (2/14/2011 8:04:22 PM)

A question first. In the stories you share with your family, how many people have heard the one about aunt X dreaming that cousin Y got killed by a train, and it happened at 8:30 the next morning? Or that cousin Y was electrocuted trying to fix an antique model train a week later? Or a whole lot more mundane accounts, but spooky enough that the story made the rounds? Even if you would automatically dismiss such a tale, do you still hear them from time to time?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Anecdotes are not evidence. If prophetic dreams and visions happened in the distant past then why aren't they happening now? Show me even one case where someone clearly prophecied an event before it occured.




Ok, Ken. Here's a nice study for you.

http://www.goertzel.org/dynapsyc/2000/Precog%20Dreams.htm

Lots of math and graphs. They do a nice job of pulling out the explanations to establish that "some" precognitive dreams can be explained away. Here was the criteria they started with;
Criteria

1.Dream must be told or recorded before its fulfillment

2.Dream must include enough details to render chance fulfillment unlikely

3.The possibility of interference from actual knowledge must be excluded

4.Self-fulfilling prophecies must be excluded

5.Telepathic influences can not explain the occurrence of the precognitive dream

(I bolded 5, because that's just funny!)

Here's a clip

quote:

Experimental Laboratory Studies
The research group at the Maimonides hospital in New York carried out studies on telepathy and dreaming (Ullman, Krippner & Vaughan, 1977) and two studies on precognitive dreams (Krippner et al., 1971; 1972). Participant in both studies was Malcolm Bessent, an English “sensitive” with a history of reported spontaneous precognitive dreams. After eight sleep laboratory nights with REM awakenings for dream collection, a word from the dream element list of Hall and Van de Castle’s (1966) book was chosen at random. An experimenter created a multi-sensory environment around this word, using items which were directed to visual, auditory, gustatory, olfactory and tactile-kinesthetic inputs to which the subject was exposed. Three independent judges rated each of the eight dream protocols against the eight words/descriptions of the multi-sensory experience. Five out of eight trials were rated correctly (p = .00018; Krippner et al., 1971). The second study with a slightly different design also yielded five hits (p = .0012; Krippner et al., 1972). Among the most impressive hit was the following dream account which was rated with an average agreement of 98.3 % by the three judges:

“Bob Morris does research on animal behavior and more specifically birds.... He’s been doing various research and studies with birds and he’s taken me out to see his sanctuary place where all the birds are kept.... I remember seeing various different kinds of doves. Ring-tailed doves, ordinary doves, Canadian geese...” (Krippner et al., 1972, p. 278, third dream report, post-sleep interview)

The subsequent waking experience consisted of a slide show with various pictures of birds selected at random.

Despite the fact that the above phenomena were studied in an artificial rather than a natural context, the two studies showed positive results. However, both studies used only a single subject and future research is needed therefore to expand these findings.


What? You thought I was going to lead with the Bishop who dreamed that Franz Ferdinand was going to be killed?

*edit to add the link. Whoops!




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Spooky dreams (not about the Amish) (2/14/2011 8:23:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

A question first. In the stories you share with your family, how many people have heard the one about aunt X dreaming that cousin Y got killed by a train, and it happened at 8:30 the next morning? Or that cousin Y was electrocuted trying to fix an antique model train a week later? Or a whole lot more mundane accounts, but spooky enough that the story made the rounds? Even if you would automatically dismiss such a tale, do you still hear them from time to time?


I won't even bother retelling in this forum the story of the time  my grandmother (aged 5 at the time) dreamed that her younger brother, Harry, drowned in the well. I can recite a dozen similar accounts from my family history, but there doesn't seem to be much point to discussing them here.

Good luck with your thread, though. You're far more optimistic than I'll ever be.




TheHeretic -> RE: Spooky dreams (not about the Amish) (2/14/2011 8:24:44 PM)

No need to join the fray, Panda, and thank you for your answer. [:)]




DomKen -> RE: Spooky dreams (not about the Amish) (2/14/2011 8:27:26 PM)

Rather than going over in tedious detail the failings of this experiment I recommend Hansel's 'The Search for Psychic Power' and Marks 'Psychology of the Psychic.'




Arpig -> RE: Spooky dreams (not about the Amish) (2/14/2011 8:49:41 PM)

quote:

A question first. In the stories you share with your family, how many people have heard the one about aunt X dreaming that cousin Y got killed by a train, and it happened at 8:30 the next morning? Or that cousin Y was electrocuted trying to fix an antique model train a week later? Or a whole lot more mundane accounts, but spooky enough that the story made the rounds? Even if you would automatically dismiss such a tale, do you still hear them from time to time?
Nope, no such wacko stories in my family, I guess we are just a reality-based family




TheHeretic -> RE: Spooky dreams (not about the Amish) (2/14/2011 9:18:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Rather than going over in tedious detail the failings of this experiment I recommend Hansel's 'The Search for Psychic Power' and Marks 'Psychology of the Psychic.'



LOL, Ken. So you've got the whole thing dismissed before I ever get the link put in, huh? It speaks volumes for your credibility before we even get off the line.

I'm not expecting totality here, Arpig. Thanks.




DomKen -> RE: Spooky dreams (not about the Amish) (2/14/2011 9:26:44 PM)

I actually went ahead and looked up the group's previous paper, it is availabe online after all. It didn't take much reading for the details to ring a bell and I simply pulled the various skeptic books on so called psi experiments off the shelf and found two that discuss the Maimonides experiments in detail.

There is a reason that no one is seriously pursuing these experiments that were done in the late 60's and early 70's. They were quite flawed in both the experimental design and in the data collection.




Kirata -> RE: Spooky dreams (not about the Amish) (2/14/2011 10:46:00 PM)


~ FR ~

Google Tech Talks: Science and the Taboo of PSI

K.




Kirata -> RE: Spooky dreams (not about the Amish) (2/14/2011 10:56:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Rather than going over in tedious detail the failings of this experiment I recommend Hansel's 'The Search for Psychic Power' and Marks 'Psychology of the Psychic.'

Rather than going into the tedious details, I recommend my cat.

K.




TheHeretic -> RE: Spooky dreams (not about the Amish) (2/15/2011 6:40:04 AM)

I'm going to have to make time to watch that, Kirata. Not this morning, I'm afraid.




TheHeretic -> RE: Spooky dreams (not about the Amish) (2/15/2011 6:55:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


~ FR ~

Google Tech Talks: Science and the Taboo of PSI

K.




I'm about a half hour into this great lecture, Kirata, but something struck me from the six or seven minute mark. He shows a news story declaring that if psi phenomena are real, they "will" show up on this new test. Why exactly would they make such an assumption?




Aylee -> RE: Spooky dreams (not about the Amish) (2/15/2011 7:35:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

A question first. In the stories you share with your family, how many people have heard the one about aunt X dreaming that cousin Y got killed by a train, and it happened at 8:30 the next morning? Or that cousin Y was electrocuted trying to fix an antique model train a week later? Or a whole lot more mundane accounts, but spooky enough that the story made the rounds? Even if you would automatically dismiss such a tale, do you still hear them from time to time?
*edit to add the link. Whoops!


Fast Reply

I really have no idea if there are such stories in my family.

That being said, I put the phenomenon down to the same thing as knowing who is calling before you answer the phone (without the aid of caller ID), being angry and a street light going out while you are walking or driving under it, and I cannot think of a third example off the top of my head right now, but I am sure that it exists.

Occam’s razor and all. . .

Simply, it is the fact of something actually happening at these times that makes us remember them or think of them as important. We do not tend to think about or notice when we get it wrong.

How many dreams have you had where someone you know dies? I have had a metric ton of them. None have come true at this point. If someday one does that will merely mean that I dreamed correctly one time in a hundred-thousand or more. This is not statistically significant.




windchymes -> RE: Spooky dreams (not about the Amish) (2/15/2011 8:57:15 PM)

These aren't family stories, and no one died, but I've had two "psychic" dreams, for lack of a better term, in my lifetime.

The first one is kind of dumb, but maybe slightly significant: I was taking a correspondence course and I dreamed that I got my test back through the mail with comments written in the margins in green ink, and I did. Green ink isn't all THAT common, though comments in the margins are, I know.

The big one was the time I dreamed I bought four scratch-off lottery tickets and won $100,000 on one of them. I was having a jolly time spending the money until I woke up. Luckily, I told people about the dream during the day, so I had witnesses, and that night on my way home I decided to stop and buy four tickets, just like in the dream. The last one was a $500 winner. Not $100K, but in those days as a single mom, and right before Christmas, it was a fortune.




TheHeretic -> RE: Spooky dreams (not about the Amish) (2/15/2011 9:37:11 PM)

Coincidence and happenstance only take us so far, Aylee.

To answer my own question, yes, such stories are there in the oral tradition of my family. Mom and her sisters were tight-knit and gossipy. When an aunt was completely freaked out about dreaming of encountering a big spider in her living room, then moving the sofa to get a cat toy and finding one later that day, we all heard about it, some nodding, some dimissing, and at least one evil nephew storing away the knowledge that she was afraid of spiders [;)].

Such dreams are in my own life experience as well. Dreams of odd situations, unusual events would linger with me, and the circumstances met. Insignificant, random stuff. So and so was in the house, and such and such gets broken. It wasn't a case of having a whole range of dreams to rifle through the memories of, to find an, "aha!" These were dreams that were remembered at the time of waking, and felt somehow different.
Even though I largely stopped remembering dreams at all by my late 20's, the best of the bunch was when I was 35. My alarm went off one morning. I sat up, turned it off, and instead of getting up to make coffee, I laid back down, fell asleep instantly, and had a bizarre and vivid dream. I was seeing through another person's eyes, driving a big old 70's sedan, pulling a trailer, and the trailer started fishtailing, ultimately overturning, and taking the car with it. I startled awake at the moment in the dream when the driver's side of the car lifted away from the pavement. It was such an unusual sort of dream that I recounted it to my stepmother over coffee (I had just moved, and was sofa surfing until I found decent work), and again to the mega-bitch dispatcher at my temp job, driving the delivery van.
That afternoon, returning from Las Vegas, I found myself in an incredibly tight near-miss crash with an old 1970's car towing an old travel trailer, that unfolded exactly as it had in my dream.

Call me a liar, or crazy, or delusional. This is the Pit of P&R, I've been called worse.




Aylee -> RE: Spooky dreams (not about the Amish) (2/16/2011 5:54:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Coincidence and happenstance only take us so far, Aylee.

Call me a liar, or crazy, or delusional. This is the Pit of P&R, I've been called worse.


I have no need to call you any of those things. I just do not think that the number of "right" dreams is statistically significant compared to the number of "wrong" dreams.

I just do not believe in all that stuff. Ghosts, alien visitation, telepathy, et cetera. If you think that dreams can have significance, then more power to you. I will remain skeptical.

It is really okay in my world for not everyone to believe the same things that I believe in. [:)]




TheHeretic -> RE: Spooky dreams (not about the Amish) (2/16/2011 6:52:45 AM)

That was a good video, Kirata. Thanks for the link. At the end of his lecture, he brings up the old rule that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I'll go along with that, but not from the typical perspective.

What I think is the extraordinary claim is that humans are just so super-smart and cool, that only a few hundred years of our science has everything all figured out, and that anything which doesn't fit inside our nifty new box must be excluded from the realm of reality. Now that requires a leap of faith!




came4U -> RE: Spooky dreams (not about the Amish) (2/16/2011 7:43:15 AM)

Dreams can be less reliable of a future event if a person doesn't know how to interpret them.  I'd suggest only writing down very few interesting, odd and key points, to see what happens and then if and when something of similarity occurs you know the pattern to look for.

I am more of a remote viewer (aka, any past, present or future events/locations) arrive when I am awake.  It helps to talk to the person
for a few minutes--not knowing where they live, sex, name, etc. Disastrous events of magnitude/population come rarely in a flashing thought (ie: the Crash on the Hudston miracle was so odd, birds, plane crash, water) that I ignore/dismiss them as just frikn weird. 

But, if you are interested, you can study 'Remote Viewing' itself as a livelihood or for recreation by Ingo Swann, the father of remote viewing (aka, the real man who stared at goats) who went on to be the leading force behind the CIA's 20 year long black budget (now public) program that they say is now 'unused'. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRj7sXEgZCA&feature=related

If you in another case want me to view you (free, of course) to see if I pick up anything, let me know. I tend to see future events on cue, or not at all, location, situational habitat, etc.  I have been known to be wrong, but known to be right more. 

The whole concept is possible naturally to everyone, if open to it and an interesting field of interest for anyone who is or isn't into believing in telepathy vs. the supernatural (in this case, I say supernatural as in the using the means of instruments of an occult of any form). I, personally, do not delve into the supernatural. Noting good can come of it-ever.

btw, if windchimes actually thought about it deeply, you are more than likely MORE intuitive than you gives herself credit for (if you were to document the little things that may 'seem' irrelevant at the time, more). Don't forget though, human reasoning gets in the buggered way and mistranslates what we perceive in dreams vs the thoughts and visions while awake).  The 'gift' is trying to decipher the difference in the planned perception your own being/mind/soul is telling you, knowing what is relevant or not and that takes practice, patience and study of your own predictive-positive patterns.  You are a pre-cog of the 'tangible' vs those who predict or presently see events of non-negotiable 'otherly' (perhaps it is only a personal gift) pre-cog.  To test yourself would be to see if your ability would feel or foresee events that effect others.  But, hell, no need.  If that is what you get, it is still 99% more of what others receive, so your system works just fine.  But, if you want to test yourself with practice, do study on it further.

and to the OP, Heretic.

your only problem is you think about the whole ideal too much, the anticipation of getting a 'viewing', the meaning of and looking for the realization in an end result.  That in itself clouds the issue with the possibility of creating events out of the though of events via the subliminal dream-event.  In other words, you THINK too much.  Doing that, you likely miss 70% of any true and dire information necessary for every day events that are to unfold.

Aylee is not a skeptic, but a rational, yet passionate, compassionate observer--in which most of the population is.  A 'debunker', on the other hand is directly obsessed with denying the existence of such premonitions/un-natural events because they are not into the whole issue because very few instances have been personal enough to believe, which is fine.  Circumstances of 'seeing' are too far and few between that to some it will never be realized that they are a valuable resource for their own well-being and others.




windchymes -> RE: Spooky dreams (not about the Amish) (2/16/2011 9:18:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

btw, if windchimes actually thought about it deeply, you are more than likely MORE intuitive than you gives herself credit for (if you were to document the little things that may 'seem' irrelevant at the time, more). Don't forget though, human reasoning gets in the buggered way and mistranslates what we perceive in dreams vs the thoughts and visions while awake).  The 'gift' is trying to decipher the difference in the planned perception your own being/mind/soul is telling you, knowing what is relevant or not and that takes practice, patience and study of your own predictive-positive patterns.  You are a pre-cog of the 'tangible' vs those who predict or presently see events of non-negotiable 'otherly' (perhaps it is only a personal gift) pre-cog.  To test yourself would be to see if your ability would feel or foresee events that effect others.  But, hell, no need.  If that is what you get, it is still 99% more of what others receive, so your system works just fine.  But, if you want to test yourself with practice, do study on it further.



Oh, I've thought about it very deeply throughout my life and credit myself with being very intuitive. I'm so intuitive that I know if I write a big post about how intuitive I thought I really was and its effects on both myself and others around me, I know I'd be raked over the coals, so I just don't talk about it much.

I do keep an open mind and am always open to debunking. [:)]




GotSteel -> RE: Spooky dreams (not about the Amish) (2/16/2011 9:18:51 AM)

Before noticing this thread I posted a response in the amish thread which I think would be more appropriate here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Anecdotes are not evidence. If prophetic dreams and visions happened in the distant past then why aren't they happening now? Show me even one case where someone clearly prophecied an event before it occured.

Well there was Paul the psychic octopus.




came4U -> RE: Spooky dreams (not about the Amish) (2/16/2011 9:36:48 AM)

quote:

Oh, I've thought about it very deeply throughout my life and credit myself with being very intuitive. I'm so intuitive that I know if I write a big post about how intuitive I thought I really was and its effects on both myself and others around me, I know I'd be raked over the coals, so I just don't talk about it much.

I do keep an open mind and am always open to debunking.


Yes, it is something rare to publicly admit so without sounding like a kook. I do agree.  You don't have to necessarily do that, if you choose to hone in on your own skills, that is private and personal indeed. 

Debunking IS good.  It keeps a person on the side of sanity and reality as they know it, as trends and population know it.  Debunking is nature's way of ridding of frauds, I agree, it is a healthy thing to do. But, in this topic, it is hard as hard to prove as it is to debunk when it comes down to it, unless it directly effects a person.

I am not ashamed to notify I have a few weird skills in this department, but I can also be easily debunked because people do or look for quite the opposite or attract what I do say.  I am learning now to document, proven and time-stamped perceived events in writing (email not to be opened etc) to bypass this phenomenon of 'created-chance'. 

I am open to debunkers, but the best guide for anyone's future successes or failures, accidents or misfortune is--themselves.




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