RE: FemDoms and Feminism.

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Vendaval -> RE: FemDoms and Feminism. (5/5/2006 5:56:33 PM)
You know, so many of the people I went to high school with got caught in the cycle of drugs, alcohol, gangs, and the juvenile justice system. Graduation seemed to be a meaningless step along with the 18th birthday into either the welfare system or to being an on-going guest of the Dept of Justice. I was determined not to be another dead-beat statistic. I started working as soon as I turned 18 years of age and was not too proud to work at low-paying service jobs. I worked in restaurants, hotels, retail, clerical, factory, etc. And off and on I put myself through community college for all the undergraduate work. There were 3 times in my life I was working 7 days a week AND going to school. For the better part of a school year I slept in shifts, 3-4 hours of sleep in the morning, go to classes, another 3-4 hours of sleep in the evening, get up and work the graveyard shift. And out of all those jobs over all those years guess how many had insurance? 4, that's right, only 4 of them. 1 was dental only, the other 3 were medical. The other times I had no coverage and had to take care of Myself, guess where I went? Planned Parenthood. I got the yearly gynocological exam and birth control pills, treatment for nasty PMS and a bladder infection. They were the ones that caught the early signs of high blood pressure. One of my friends found a lump in her breast. She had the nurse at Planned Parenthood examine her and was referred to a doctor who treated the lump. Thankfully it was only a blocked milk duct, nothing cancerous. She was able to have it removed as an outpatient procedure, a minor surgery with no complications. The staff at Planned Parenthood was courteous and friendly, the nurse who did the exams was female, and they had a sliding scale for payment. I am so grateful to this organization! Yes, it is really a nasty mess when the people who are willing to work and DO work, cannot get health care. And because women are the ones who carry the primary responsibility for preventing pregnancy and taking care of children, we get hit with a double shot. "Don't agonize, organize!" - famous quote Vendaval quote: ORIGINAL: Lashra I think healthcare is a big issue that needs to be addressed in this country (USA) so many people cannot get healthcare because they don't have insurance. Now addressing the issue of healthcare for women, I honestly think sometimes we are still seen as second class citizens. I refuse to go to male doctors anymore because I had too many misdiagnosis and some were just plain rude with no bedside manner.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: FemDoms and Feminism. (5/5/2006 8:22:43 PM)
I wish they had a male birth control pill. I'm sure this would cease being a issue, hell the problem then would be global depopulation. As far as womens issues I don't care at all, to tell you the truth, go run to your organizations, and fix it, why not start your own companies. As far as the current situation with abortion as this is a man/woman issue, I'm completely against abortion except the few percent of cases, were it actually is incest, rape, mutilated baby, or danger to the mother. But who am I to tell a woman she can't pay someone to kill her baby.

Dustyn -> RE: FemDoms and Feminism. (5/5/2006 8:30:41 PM)
And the highlighted portion is the crux of the whole situation. Should I, who have never met you, have the right to tell your daughter (your in a general sense) that she can't have an abortion? The only other entity that should have anything to say, in the least, is the fetus, and well, no one has figured out a way to have a chat with the damned thing yet. Should we tell women that their right to do as they wish with their body is suspended until the fetus is capable of conversing intelligently? - Dustyn quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou I wish they had a male birth control pill. I'm sure this would cease being a issue, hell the problem then would be global depopulation. As far as womens issues I don't care at all, to tell you the truth, go run to your organizations, and fix it, why not start your own companies. As far as the current situation with abortion as this is a man/woman issue, I'm completely against abortion except the few percent of cases, were it actually is incest, rape, mutilated baby, or danger to the mother. But who am I to tell a woman she can't pay someone to kill her baby.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: FemDoms and Feminism. (5/5/2006 9:08:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dustyn And the highlighted portion is the crux of the whole situation. Should I, who have never met you, have the right to tell your daughter (your in a general sense) that she can't have an abortion? The only other entity that should have anything to say, in the least, is the fetus, and well, no one has figured out a way to have a chat with the damned thing yet. Should we tell women that their right to do as they wish with their body is suspended until the fetus is capable of conversing intelligently? - Dustyn quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou I wish they had a male birth control pill. I'm sure this would cease being a issue, hell the problem then would be global depopulation. As far as womens issues I don't care at all, to tell you the truth, go run to your organizations, and fix it, why not start your own companies. As far as the current situation with abortion as this is a man/woman issue, I'm completely against abortion except the few percent of cases, were it actually is incest, rape, mutilated baby, or danger to the mother. But who am I to tell a woman she can't pay someone to kill her baby. Apparently you can't read, the very sentence you highlighted says. Who am I to tell a woman she can't pay someone to kill her baby. That means I don't agree with it on a personal level but I'm not going to tell anybody they can't do it.

MsMacComb -> RE: FemDoms and Feminism. (5/5/2006 10:20:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou I wish they had a male birth control pill. I'm sure this would cease being a issue, hell the problem then would be global depopulation. As far as womens issues I don't care at all, to tell you the truth, go run to your organizations, and fix it, why not start your own companies. They do. Its called a vasectomy. [:)] As to your second comment and you stating you don't care. Consider that the main issue is that they are cutting funding a care for people like your mother, sister, daughter, wife, girlfriend, grandmother and so forth. You can play hardass all you want but I am pretty sure you would be devasted if you found out that a treatment, a procedure or a medicine that could have saved anyone of the people I mentioned's life but instead due to their being unfair and cheap that persons life was cut short by 5 years, or 25 years, or 50 years.[;)]

Dustyn -> RE: FemDoms and Feminism. (5/6/2006 2:42:52 AM)
I kind of gathered that you, personally, don't endorse the concept of abortion, but you are also intelligent enough to not try dictating to others that they should feel the way you do... I'm pretty much the same way... I, personally, wouldn't want the girl to get the abortion, if it were mine, but it is ultimately her choice, not mine... Try reading what I wrote... I just took it and expanded it to the entire concept as an argument in favor of abortion, instead of keeping it on an interpersonal level... You just went one way, and I went the other, and neither signaled the lane change... nothing major... - Dustyn

NeedToUseYou -> RE: FemDoms and Feminism. (5/6/2006 5:43:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsMacComb quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou I wish they had a male birth control pill. I'm sure this would cease being a issue, hell the problem then would be global depopulation. As far as womens issues I don't care at all, to tell you the truth, go run to your organizations, and fix it, why not start your own companies. They do. Its called a vasectomy. [:)] As to your second comment and you stating you don't care. Consider that the main issue is that they are cutting funding a care for people like your mother, sister, daughter, wife, girlfriend, grandmother and so forth. You can play hardass all you want but I am pretty sure you would be devasted if you found out that a treatment, a procedure or a medicine that could have saved anyone of the people I mentioned's life but instead due to their being unfair and cheap that persons life was cut short by 5 years, or 25 years, or 50 years.[;)] I was saying that in terms of a temporary birth control pill. Women can get their uterus taken out or ovaries, but I don't think that's what most people think of when they hear the word birth control Yeah, I know a pill is not a 100% but 99% would be a start, plus if the woman took hers well, it'd be even lower chance. As far as me not caring about medical care in regards to women. Well, I just care about medical care in general as in everybody. My mommy would be concerned if I got prostate cancer and didn't get treatment for lack of insurance. I'd be concerned if she lacked medical care as well, It's disturbing how everyone focuses on one group all the time and then is suprising when someone gets tired of it. How many threads can clutter the bored about the beaten down majority. Women outnumber men, they can vote, they can work, they can do everything men can do. Women are the majority, if you want you can take over all of government you could, but apparently they don't. Here's a link to the population census http://www.census.gov/statab/www/pop.html You outnumber us by millions. LOL. It's true I really don't care about any one group, if the context is women's health care I don't care. If it was just health care, then I'd care.

Amaros -> RE: FemDoms and Feminism. (5/6/2006 11:34:20 AM)
quote: The thought of "visitation rights " for rapists or those performing incest (which are rapists too, I know) is horrific. I generally support the pro-life stance when looking at "convenience" abortions, which make up the majority of them... I don't like the idea of abortions in rape/incest situations, but I understand them. This is pretty much my take on the subject, which is that abortion is a piss-poor form of birth control. At the same time, the pro-life faction continues to prove over and over again that their agenda is not so much anti-abortion as it is anti sex - they oppose to attempts to promote the use of birth control, which is the only realistic way to reduce the incidence of non-emergency abortions, with as much, if not more vigor than they oppose abortion itself. Opposition to the "morning after" pill is a case in point - the egg may not even become fertilized for up to 48 hours after sex, and yet this is somehow still called "abortion". Research indicates that the earlier birth control is taught to males, the more likely it is to be used - i.e., if you wait until males are sexually active, there is little liklihood they will use a condom - and male attitudes are one thing that never seems to be discussed. Peer pressure, date rape, alchohol and other forms of coercion are likely suspects in the bulk of non-emergency abortions, and these things all tend to be underreported. Abstinence programs were heavily promoted a few years ago, until it was revealed that they were no more effective against teen pregnency rates than birth control classes - consider the psychology at work here. Peer pressure, hormones, and lack of adult supervision - hours worked have increased steadily as compensation levels have dropped over the last Twenty years - all conspire to create opportunities for sexual activity. Not that things were any different in "the good old days" - it would be very interesting to contrast marriage and first child birth certificates since the turn of the century, I suspect that one would find a less than 9 month gap at least 50% of the time. The only way to reduce unwanted pregnency is to promote birth control, and to do it early enough that it will be effective - just assume that at some point, it's gonna seem "like a good idea", and make sure that when it does, the participants have options. The choice of whether or not to use birth control is a much easier choice than whether or not to abort, I don't understand why anyone would want deny the former in order to force the latter on anybody.

MsMacComb -> RE: FemDoms and Feminism. (5/6/2006 2:21:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Amaros This is pretty much my take on the subject, which is that abortion is a piss-poor form of birth control. At the same time, the pro-life faction continues to prove over and over again that their agenda is not so much anti-abortion as it is anti sex - they oppose to attempts to promote the use of birth control, which is the only realistic way to reduce the incidence of non-emergency abortions, with as much, if not more vigor than they oppose abortion itself. Opposition to the "morning after" pill is a case in point - the egg may not even become fertilized for up to 48 hours after sex, and yet this is somehow still called "abortion". Research indicates that the earlier birth control is taught to males, the more likely it is to be used - i.e., if you wait until males are sexually active, there is little liklihood they will use a condom - and male attitudes are one thing that never seems to be discussed. Peer pressure, date rape, alchohol and other forms of coercion are likely suspects in the bulk of non-emergency abortions, and these things all tend to be underreported. Abstinence programs were heavily promoted a few years ago, until it was revealed that they were no more effective against teen pregnency rates than birth control classes - consider the psychology at work here. Peer pressure, hormones, and lack of adult supervision - hours worked have increased steadily as compensation levels have dropped over the last Twenty years - all conspire to create opportunities for sexual activity. Not that things were any different in "the good old days" - it would be very interesting to contrast marriage and first child birth certificates since the turn of the century, I suspect that one would find a less than 9 month gap at least 50% of the time. The only way to reduce unwanted pregnency is to promote birth control, and to do it early enough that it will be effective - just assume that at some point, it's gonna seem "like a good idea", and make sure that when it does, the participants have options. The choice of whether or not to use birth control is a much easier choice than whether or not to abort, I don't understand why anyone would want deny the former in order to force the latter on anybody. Education and availabilty of birth control is the key (as you mentioned). When I was in my late 30s I finally found out what had happened to one of my grandmothers sisters. My family is one of those that prefers to "hide" everything, keep up appearances, social standing, live in denial, most are very religious etc. However, I was always very surprised that my grandmother who passed away a few years ago at 96 years of age was pro-choice. Now being a good old german Lutheran, a farmers wife and retired school teacher one would assume pro-life all the way. I always knew that her one sister had died when she was in her early 20s (so this would have been about 60-70 years ago) and was told by my mother that it was some wierd disease. Turns out it was from an abortion so after knowing her younger sister died from this my grandmother had a different view. My point is that these days some people (public agendas) act like teen pregnancy, birth control issues, abortions etc are somethin new. They arent. The one main difference is its more widespread due to per captia growth (more people) and isnt kept in the closet as much as it used to be.

KittenWithaTwist -> RE: FemDoms and Feminism. (5/6/2006 9:16:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level quote: ORIGINAL: MsMacComb You know thats something I wondered about with the new South Dakota law (assuming its upheld). If the mother doesnt want the child, the law says she can't abort, is she in a sense "owned" by the state? If so, are they going to pay for her and the childs living expenses? There will be "back room" abortions, and there will be many more children given up for adoption. I think alot of people also hope there will be an increase in responsibility and common sense.... And there will be problems and tragedies. I don't have a magic cure-all for any of life's ills, abortion included. But it would help if society/government put a serious effort into sex education and birth control, and if individuals of both sexes would think before acting, meaning keep your fucking pants up and dresses down if you aren't protected, or ready to be a parent emotionally and financially. I don't want to pay to raise your kids, and I don't want to see unborn children killed because the mother and/or father doesn't want them. Solutions, anyone? Are you ready to be a parent, emotionally and financially, every time you have sex? Condoms break, bc pills are only 82-97% effective. As they sometimes say, "Nature finds a way". Personally, I'd rather there not be the need for "back room" abortions with wire hangers. It horrifies me that someone would need to resort to that because it is illegal for her to cross state lines to get an abortion, and she cannot (for whatever reason) bring the child to term. Unfortunately, the government is trying to outlaw abortion AND sex education. So, not only will young people not be educated about condoms, female condoms, spermicide, and birth control, they'll have no help if something does go wrong. It's impossible to stop teens from having sex. They're rebellious, exploring their bodies, and think they're "in love" at fifteen, sixteen, seventeen. Many young women nowadays believe that oral sex isn't "really doing it" and don't realize that they could catch many STDs that way. The solution to your problem is to allow the freedom to choose. I don't know that I could ever have an abortion, personally. However, I support ANYONE's right, for any reason, to abort a fetus. It's their choice. It's their body. If they're going through a program like Planned Parenthood, they're using private funds to have it done. People seem to believe that abortions are a free ride out of Babyville. A woman I know had an abortion...she remembers it with sadness every year. It's something that pulls at you, emotionally. It hurts. It isn't a morning after pill, or your annual depo shot. It can be difficult, and sometimes, necessary. After all, would you rather see those babies given up at fire stations, thrown in the trash, killed and dumped, or shoved into the horrible foster care system?

KittenWithaTwist -> RE: FemDoms and Feminism. (5/6/2006 9:26:45 PM)
They're working on a few, actually. I've already read about the shot, but it has to be injected twice or three times a month as I recall. There's always a vasectomy.

KittenWithaTwist -> RE: FemDoms and Feminism. (5/6/2006 9:29:33 PM)
You realize they don't castrate you when you have a vasectomy, right? It's reversible. A hysterectomy isn't reversible.

Vendaval -> RE: FemDoms and Feminism. (5/6/2006 9:40:08 PM)
ORIGINAL: MsMacComb Education and availabilty of birth control is the key (as you mentioned). When I was in my late 30s I finally found out what had happened to one of my grandmothers sisters. My family is one of those that prefers to "hide" everything, keep up appearances, social standing, live in denial, most are very religious etc. However, I was always very surprised that my grandmother who passed away a few years ago at 96 years of age was pro-choice. Now being a good old german Lutheran, a farmers wife and retired school teacher one would assume pro-life all the way. I always knew that her one sister had died when she was in her early 20s (so this would have been about 60-70 years ago) and was told by my mother that it was some wierd disease. Turns out it was from an abortion so after knowing her younger sister died from this my grandmother had a different view. :nods: Right, these problems have always been part of human societies. I am so sorry to hear what happened to your aunt. It used to be in the U.S. that girls who were pregnant before marriage were sent away to have their babies, forced to give them up for adoption and the records sealed, and then brought home to live with the shame. Nothing happened to the father. The other scenario was that if the poverty and other circumstances were dire; they might loose their fertility or die from a self-induced or illegal abortion performed by an untrained and/or unscrupulous nurse and/or doctor. My point is that these days some people (public agendas) act like teen pregnancy, birth control issues, abortions etc are somethin new. They arent. The one main difference is its more widespread due to per captia growth (more people) and isnt kept in the closet as much as it used to be. [/quote] One point that I seldom hear mentioned is that if you go back 2 or 3 generations people were married and having families while in their teenage years. The hormones start up even earlier now and at the same time the social expectation is to finish high school at least, college if you are lucky, and then start a family. Sex education has to include contraception and family planning, not abstinence only. Mistakes happen, contraception may not be used properly, condoms can break, some people are very fertile, young people get caught up in the moment, date rape happens, and so does rape from strangers, people the victim knows, and incest. Regards, Vendaval

NeedToUseYou -> RE: FemDoms and Feminism. (5/6/2006 10:09:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist You realize they don't castrate you when you have a vasectomy, right? It's reversible. A hysterectomy isn't reversible. yeah I know that, I guess the comparison should have been clamping off a womans tubes. My point only was really was there is no current non-surgical equivalent to birth control for men, as there are for women, and how I clearly stated "pill" in my post and she for some reason mentions vasectomy as if that's a equivalent mechanism. Sorta being snarky I guess, suggesting 100% birth control would be taking a womans uterus out.

JohnWarren -> RE: FemDoms and Feminism. (5/6/2006 10:18:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist You realize they don't castrate you when you have a vasectomy, right? It's reversible. A hysterectomy isn't reversible. First and third statements correct. Second is correct only under circumstances. One factor is if the vas are simply cut or sections are removed. The latter makes reconnection impossible. When I had my operation the doctor asked if I wanted a simple cut or a section removed. My answer was take all you want... we can have spagetti later

MsMacComb -> RE: FemDoms and Feminism. (5/6/2006 10:36:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JohnWarren My answer was take all you want... we can have spagetti later Oh, thats just wrong on so many levels, lol.

Level -> RE: FemDoms and Feminism. (5/7/2006 4:08:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist The solution to your problem is to allow the freedom to choose. No it isn't, unfortunately. The unborn child is still being killed. I don't know that I could ever have an abortion, personally. However, I support ANYONE's right, for any reason, to abort a fetus. It's their choice. It's their body. I believe there are TWO bodies involved, and one of them dies. Here's a link.... look at the one at 6 weeks... eyes, ribs.... it's not an alligator, or a tree branch... it's a human being. http://www.realalternatives.org/pregnant/fetaldevelopment.htm If they're going through a program like Planned Parenthood, they're using private funds to have it done. Maybe so, but quite a few people would like to see tax dollars spent on having it done, which makes me furious. People seem to believe that abortions are a free ride out of Babyville. A woman I know had an abortion...she remembers it with sadness every year. It's something that pulls at you, emotionally. It hurts.There's a reason for the sadness and the hurt. Her child's life was taken. It isn't a morning after pill, or your annual depo shot. It can be difficult, and sometimes, necessary. As the earlier post I put up showed, the "hard cases" make up about 7% of the 40 million abortions performed in the U.S. since 1973. After all, would you rather see those babies given up at fire stations Hell Yes...., thrown in the trash-- no, but after they're aborted, I guess that's where they end up anyway....., killed and dumped-- see previous answer....., or shoved into the horrible foster care system.... hmm, death or foster care?

meatcleaver -> RE: FemDoms and Feminism. (5/7/2006 4:51:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist The solution to your problem is to allow the freedom to choose. I'm all for the right of women to choose, it is after all their body. However, I really struggle with the idea of abortion used as late contraception, particularly in a society where it isn't necessary. As Level says, there are two people involved and to me, my believing in a woman's right to choose takes any moral responsibility away from me. It's an easy option. If abortion is fine, why isn't infanticide fine? There seems little difference to me. Inconvenience is inconvenience and why should there be a difference if the child is in the mother's womb or out of it? One of the main problems I can see is that we live in a society where the cult of the individual is paramount. I do think men should be made to take more responsibility and not be allowed to walk away but doing that would infringe on the right of the individual. Legitamizing abortion as a right is a gross rationalisation of a society that claims on the whole to be humanist. I don't have any answers so I take the easy route but I'm well aware it is one of ignoring an issue rather than facing up to the reality of the situation which is in reality legalised murder. Yep, I realise that might come across as a provocation but in my eyes that is how it is. I have found myself in this situation not long ago and I realised if the mother so wished she could have an abortion regardless of my feelings. Thankfully she chose to have the child and I am more than happy to make the sacrifices to make sure the mother and my daughter are well cared for and financially stable. Even though for a lot of the time we are 8,000 miles apart, I feel blessed that we made the right choice and didn't take the easy route. I accept it is a bigger burden on the mother than me but I would gladly have the child with me if the mother didn't want her but as soon as the child was born, I could see that was not an option for me, she loved it immediately.

Level -> RE: FemDoms and Feminism. (5/7/2006 4:58:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist The solution to your problem is to allow the freedom to choose. I'm all for the right of women to choose, it is after all their body. However, I really struggle with the idea of abortion used as late contraception, particularly in a society where it isn't necessary. As Level says, there are two people involved and to me, my believing in a woman's right to choose takes any moral responsibility away from me. It's an easy option. If abortion is fine, why isn't infanticide fine? There seems little difference to me. Inconvenience is inconvenience and why should there be a difference if the child is in the mother's womb or out of it? One of the main problems I can see is that we live in a society where the cult of the individual is paramount. I do think men should be made to take more responsibility and not be allowed to walk away but doing that would infringe on the right of the individual. Legitamizing abortion as a right is a gross rationalisation of a society that claims on the whole to be humanist. I don't have any answers so I take the easy route but I'm well aware it is one of ignoring an issue rather than facing up to the reality of the situation which is in reality legalised murder. Yep, I realise that might come across as a provocation but in my eyes that is how it is. I have found myself in this situation not long ago and I realised if the mother so wished she could have an abortion regardless of my feelings. Thankfully she chose to have the child and I am more than happy to make the sacrifices to make sure the mother and my daughter are well cared for and financially stable. Even though for a lot of the time we are 8,000 miles apart, I feel blessed that we made the right choice and didn't take the easy route. I accept it is a bigger burden on the mother than me but I would gladly have the child with me if the mother didn't want her but as soon as the child was born, I could see that was not an option for me, she loved it immediately. You have my respect for your actions on this. And I strongly agree with you about making the fathers be more responsible, there's no reason it should all fall in the mother's lap. Level

OnyxGoddess -> RE: FemDoms and Feminism. (5/7/2006 6:03:02 AM)
I'm a pro-choicer. Why do women always have to bear the brunt/blame/responsibility for everything? We don't want her to have an abortion but we won't make the men stand up to thier role in the dance. What about women whose husbands/boyfriends leave in the middle of the pregnancy? How unfair is that to her? ( i do not believe in abortions after 8wks) Nor do i believe in abortion as birth control. Other methods are far cheaper and less damaging to the body. We have so many children in foster care for whatever reason that need homes and nobody wants them. We're paying the cost of those mothers who didnt want children but didnt abort them. And nobody is in a rush to adopt half the children in foster care. They would rather adopt abroad simply because it's easier. Which of the two evils do we want? Abortion or a slew of children who are unwanted and know it and have to become adults in this society. And why is it a man is just about free to roam all over and do as he pleases but a woman is constantly being scrutinized and her right to just ...EXIST as she wants a problem? I don't just mean abortion but EVERYTHING?

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