That deep-seated kinky "essence" (Full Version)

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ThePeripatetic -> That deep-seated kinky "essence" (2/17/2011 11:39:03 PM)

This thread is inspired in part by the numerous posts I've come across where the OP asks one of the following loaded questions, “How do I know whether I'm submissive or a Dominant?” and/or the question, “What caused you to realize that you are a sub or Dom?”

The usual responses I see to these questions from many of the forum regulars is something along the lines of, “I was born this way” or any number of variations on this theme. I think for many folks in the lifestyle, that “hunger”, or “spirit”, or “essence” (whatever the heck you want to call it!) to either submit or dominate is deeply engrained into one's psyche, sexuality, personality. It's not easily quantified, explained, or rationalized.

“It's just who I am” often goes the refrain.

What I'm curious to know is whether that “hunger” for submission and/or Dominance can ever be acquired later in life and/or “developed” where it was once thought not to exist? In a sense, yes, I'm asking about “vanillas” being “converted”. But I'm trying to enquire about something that runs a bit deeper than just “kinky conversion”.

Here's an example to help clarify. I've had a few vanilla girlfriends who I've opened up to, with varying degrees, about my kinky proclivities. And to varying degrees they've been accepting and willing to play around a bit.

But I never saw “that Femdom look” in their eyes. It was never more than a game to them. I always had the distinct impression that our kinky play was more or less an effort to appease my fantasies. I'm certainly thankful that they were open-minded and I'm sure these women had fun “playing” but... I don't want to just “play” at kink! It's more than a game in my mind.

So I guess I'm asking whether that D/s “essence”, that “je ne sais quoi” of BDSM, is truly something you either have or you don't? Do you bother pursuing relationships with “vanillas” perhaps thinking that they have an inner-kinky animal just dying to be released? Or have you found that this is too much wasted effort and only date other kinky persons?

And if you happen to be a “vanilla convert”, do you think it was a matter of you just discovering what had been lying dormant? Or did someone help mold and guide you toward that “essence”? Perhaps it was all just a game at first but then you hit a point where it “clicked” and suddenly became more than a game?



62704 -> RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" (2/18/2011 12:41:12 AM)

Dormant, huh. That part of me wasn't sleeping, so much as chewing on the bars of its cage while the rest of me tried to pretend it wasn't there. But yes, for me it was a matter of recognizing who I was versus who I was trying to be.

I suspect that 'essence' you refer to gets shaped much like most other personality traits. It's pretty easy to look back at my family and see where I get it from.

I'd venture a guess that few if any converts were wine from water. But grapes? Much more likely.



gungadin09 -> RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" (2/18/2011 2:36:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic
The usual responses I see to these questions from many of the forum regulars is something along the lines of, “I was born this way” or any number of variations on this theme.

...I've had a few vanilla girlfriends who I've opened up to, with varying degrees, about my kinky proclivities. And to varying degrees they've been accepting and willing to play around a bit.

But I never saw “that Femdom look” in their eyes. It was never more than a game to them. I always had the distinct impression that our kinky play was more or less an effort to appease my fantasies. I'm certainly thankful that they were open-minded and I'm sure these women had fun “playing” but... I don't want to just “play” at kink! It's more than a game in my mind.

...Do you bother pursuing relationships with “vanillas” perhaps thinking that they have an inner-kinky animal just dying to be released? Or have you found that this is too much wasted effort and only date other kinky persons?


i was born this way, i only discovered that there was a name for it recently. i've started meeting people, going to play parties, checking things out. But for me all that is just a kind of research. i'm not interested in "play". i'm interested in a relationship. This is just my way of getting there, becoming more educated, trying things on to see if they fit.

So i guess i'm still looking for my true kinky self. Having said that, sex and kink aren't the biggest factors for me in a relationship. And i think that i could be happy in the right vanilla relationship. If i had to choose between someone i loved and being kinky, i would choose the person. Although it would be nice to have both.

pam



IrishMist -> RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" (2/18/2011 4:40:41 AM)

quote:

So I guess I'm asking whether that D/s “essence”, that “je ne sais quoi” of BDSM, is truly something you either have or you don't? Do you bother pursuing relationships with “vanillas” perhaps thinking that they have an inner-kinky animal just dying to be released? Or have you found that this is too much wasted effort and only date other kinky persons?

And if you happen to be a “vanilla convert”, do you think it was a matter of you just discovering what had been lying dormant? Or did someone help mold and guide you toward that “essence”? Perhaps it was all just a game at first but then you hit a point where it “clicked” and suddenly became more than a game?

Hmmm.
My answer here will differ quite a bit from the norm in that my kink is more or less in line with my personality; both of which are deeply embedded within violence.
To that end, yes, I WAS born this way (violent) BUT, BDSM gave me an outlet for that violence, which led to my acceptance of me being a masochist.
So, for me, I think it was a combination of the two. Something that 'I have' but also something that was discovered.

Pursuing of relationships...I tend to gravitate towards others who match my personality. I am attracted to violence/violent men. They feed my kink in a way that no one else can. However, I don't limit my possibilities. I have found that violence exists in all persons; kinky and non kinky (and there is no offense meant by that statement ) [:)]



Buzzzz -> RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" (2/18/2011 4:45:48 AM)

I believe it is a little of both. "born this way" means it is just there, then you have to be exposed to some events that make a "click" in your head/soul and makes you want more



Palliata -> RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" (2/18/2011 5:47:13 AM)

I feel like this is like most things - propensity makes it a possibility, environment makes it a reality. I think it's going to be challenging to 'turn' someone even if they have the propensity, but perhaps not impossible. I would question how ethical it is to try and change someone unless they very definitely want to be changed - people have a right to be what they are, and you shouldn't try to make them into what you want them to be unless they firmly decide to take that path... and even then ?



ThePeripatetic -> RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" (2/18/2011 6:08:56 AM)


So I'm in the same boat in regard to "being born this way". This aspect of my personality and sexuality existed for me before I knew what to call it, and before it even became sexual really. And I hear similar stories when I talk to any of my kinky friends. Their interest and desire for kink and D/s extends pretty far back in their lives. Anyone who I know who has a deep-seated "hunger" for either submission or Dominance had that hunger before they knew all the terminology, techniques, etc. of the lifestyle. So yes, the various motions and features of BDSM developed with time for most of us but at the core, the "hunger" or "essence" seems to always be there.


But then there are my mostly vanilla friends (and some old girlfriends) who have maybe stumbled upon some BDSM-related stuff, thought "Hey, that looks fun", and then have played around a bit. It's more or less a little something-something to spice things up in the bedroom. But for these individuals, I've never seen that deep-seated "essence" of D/s. I've never seen the "look" in their eyes that says they need either submission or Dominance.

I'm sure there are examples of individuals who were just skipping along with their vanilla lives and then something or someone came along to flip that kinky "switch". However, when I talk about this kind of "conversion", I mean in the sense that they came to a point where they truly craved either submission or Dominance. It wasn't just a matter of playing around with some BDSM to make their partner happy, it became a deep-seated desire for them personally. I'm sure it has happened but I just have a difficult time imagining such a scenario because it's so foreign to my own situation.

I hope this is making sense to someone. I'm having difficulty trying to encapsulate these rather abstract ideas while burdened by the confines of the English language. If someone is picking up what I'm laying down feel free to jump in and help me out.



LadyPact -> RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" (2/18/2011 6:14:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic
So I guess I'm asking whether that D/s “essence”, that “je ne sais quoi” of BDSM, is truly something you either have or you don't?

I don't think I'd entirely agree with that.  I've known too many folks who would fall into the category of what gets termed "later in life" Dominant or submissive folks who weren't always that way from puberty and discovered it at a later time.  I'm not a believer in the 'you're either born that way or you're not' camp.

quote:

Do you bother pursuing relationships with “vanillas” perhaps thinking that they have an inner-kinky animal just dying to be released?

No, I don't.  If it weren't specifically for the BDSM or D/s element, I wouldn't even have a reason to be poly.  If that weren't a part of the picture, I'd have been satisfied just to be married to My husband.

quote:

Or have you found that this is too much wasted effort and only date other kinky persons?

Technically, I don't "date".  When I do meet new folks, it's because we both have an interest in S/m.  Everybody that I'm playing with now, I've met through one munch or another.  There's more than enough folks out there who are interested in the same things that I am readily available.  No conversion necessary.

quote:

And if you happen to be a “vanilla convert”, do you think it was a matter of you just discovering what had been lying dormant?

I really don't know how I lean on this one.  I still had the same personality traits.  It wasn't like I suddenly acquired being good at being 'in charge' at twenty-eight.  It's a fine hair to split, but to Me, there really is a difference between having a Dominant personality and being a Dominant.  I'm the same person in My marriage, which is an equal relationship as I am in My dynamic with clip.  The only difference is that there is an element of authority in one and not the other.

quote:

Or did someone help mold and guide you toward that “essence”?

While I could be considered one of the 'converted' I don't especially consider Myself 'molded'.  In My opinion, some Dominant women spend that first year coming into their own, rather than the stereotype that some folks expect them to be.  Granted, in My first dynamic, I really didn't know squat.  I did spend a lot of time educating Myself.

quote:

Perhaps it was all just a game at first but then you hit a point where it “clicked” and suddenly became more than a game?

I'd say this more about sadism than Dominance.  I was more than well aware that sadism was something that other people enjoyed.  I didn't have My 'aha' moment until a few years later.  I still feel that was something that I had to come to on My own.




ThePeripatetic -> RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" (2/18/2011 6:16:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Palliata

I feel like this is like most things - propensity makes it a possibility, environment makes it a reality. I think it's going to be challenging to 'turn' someone even if they have the propensity, but perhaps not impossible. I would question how ethical it is to try and change someone unless they very definitely want to be changed - people have a right to be what they are, and you shouldn't try to make them into what you want them to be unless they firmly decide to take that path... and even then ?


Just to be clear, my purpose in writing this thread isn't to advocate for converting or changing someone. I'm right there with you on the ethics of trying to change someone. I have no desire to force-feed kink.

I've actually walked away from a couple of relationships or potential relationships in the past year or so because I definitely was questioning the ethics of trying to "push" kink. I think that's some of where I'm coming from in posting this. I'm at a cross-roads right now where I'm questioning whether I should even bother to date "vanilla". I'm not sure I would be true to myself or true to my partner if I dated someone who had little or no interest in D/s.



CreativeDominant -> RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" (2/18/2011 7:51:31 AM)

It was not until 15 years ago that I recognized myself as a "Dominant" male. I had always been a "dominant" person but, as I have stated on here before, most of my relationships were based on "true equality". Ummmmmmmm, yeah. Part of the problem with those was that, while equality exists, a relationship in which both partners' oars carry the same weight and each partner has their own direction for the relationship to go is a perilous journey until one "yields" to the other. If you came of age in the 60's and 70's,, it was the man who was expected to give. The few relationships in which the women deferred to me...while not structured in a D/s manner...were the ones that the most success was seen.

Due to dissatisfaction within my marriage and a growing hunger for the more "traditional" relationship, I went searching online. When I found a BDSM chatroom, I felt something "click". Being the anal, research-oriented fool I am, I began to dig. And everything I read, every conversation I had began to bring out the "Dominant" within the "dominant" person.

I tried to bring my wife along. Slowly. I saw it as the only way to save our marriage because she would not go to counseling and MY counselor told me that if I could not find a way to bring my long-dormant views of how a relationship should be structured to the table and have at least part of them recognized, then the marriage was doomed unless I wanted to go back to the way it had been. I did not so I tried. It did not work.

Not saying that vanilla conversion cannot work...or that there was not some element of "conversion" in MY own journey. I just do not care to be the one doing the conversion.



leadership527 -> RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" (2/18/2011 9:53:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic
What I'm curious to know is whether that “hunger” for submission and/or Dominance can ever be acquired later in life and/or “developed” where it was once thought not to exist? In a sense, yes, I'm asking about “vanillas” being “converted”. But I'm trying to enquire about something that runs a bit deeper than just “kinky conversion”.
Yes within limits and depending on what, exactly you're talking about.

quote:

So I guess I'm asking whether that D/s “essence”, that “je ne sais quoi” of BDSM, is truly something you either have or you don't? Do you bother pursuing relationships with “vanillas” perhaps thinking that they have an inner-kinky animal just dying to be released? Or have you found that this is too much wasted effort and only date other kinky persons?

Again, it depends. If you're looking for that mystical BDSM "je ne sais quo", then the answer is that it can't be taught or acquired or nurtured in any way whatsoever. Either the dom stepped right off the pages of a fantasy novel or they're not true. I think that is EXACTLY due to deliberately mystifying the "thing" until nobody knows what it is (je ne sais quoi) then complaining about it's lack of existence.

Out in the real world though, humans are nature's quintessential learning machines. It is a fool's errand to suggest that a human cannot adapt to most situations given time and willingness. Granted, there are limits to how malleable any given personality can be. But I do not ascribe to the black & white value system that happens in BDSM circles. It just doesn't match my actual observation of humans.

quote:

And if you happen to be a “vanilla convert”, do you think it was a matter of you just discovering what had been lying dormant? Or did someone help mold and guide you toward that “essence”? Perhaps it was all just a game at first but then you hit a point where it “clicked” and suddenly became more than a game?

The actual dominance part was innate in me. And, just to be clear, what I mean by "dominance" isn't sadism. I mean the ability to tell someone else, Carol or really anyone else, what to do and make it stick (more often than not anyway). Some of the other parts have definitely been nurtured and in some cases created out of whole cloth from nothing. For instance, never once did it occur to me in my entire life that I'd like to actually own another human being. Yet now it is one of my great joys in life despite having no pragmatic purpose or value. Again, step away from BDSM-land for a moment. Take a look at what we actually know about humans. The answer to your question ought to be self-evident when not wrapped up in mysticism. Humans grow and adapt and respond to the stimuli in their lives over time. Well, they do if they're still breathing.

EDITED TO ADD: About pursuing vanillas, understand that I not kinky so I'm looking for "submissive". Conveniently that also includes whatever kink I may want kind of by definition. Accordingly it's almost certain that I'd find any new partner... either a 3rd poly or else a replacement for Carol... from the vanilla circles. If I was looking for someone more steeped in the BDSM "lifestyle" then I'd look among BDSM'ers.



lally2 -> RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" (2/18/2011 10:33:05 AM)

i think with questions like these people can only speak for themselves, rather than generically.  seems to me people arrive for as many different reasons are there are people.

for me there was never a time when i wondered if i might be domme or sub, my wiring is sub and there isnt an ounce of me that would be enamored by a man who wished to be submissive to me. 

as for kink, i think plenty of people have a kink or two that may make them top or bottom in the BDSM vernacular, but that doesnt make them Dominant or submissive, just means theyre kinky.

i think it is a personality thing, for it to be genuine and sustainable. 



LillyBoPeep -> RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" (2/18/2011 10:40:43 AM)

i think it's something you come with a propensity for. any number of stimuli (even ones people consider "bad") can set it off. i try not to think about the possible origins of my tastes because i dont want to link something i enjoy to something i find reprehensible. that would be like taking a big step backwards as far as self-awareness/-acceptance goes.
i grew up in a rural, old-fashioned, religious family where female subservience was basically expected, so i rebelled against that because i don't believe in gender-based hierarchies. at the same time, i recognized that i felt really happy when i was doing something for someone else, or when following someone who i felt was really capable. i just didn't want to voice that because it was already expected and i was determined to fight the trend.
so in that sense, my environment provided some sort of stimulus, but something about my nature caused me to rebel, even though the gist of what i was rebelling against was something i could relate to, without the religious/gender-specific overtones.
i realised what i was rebelling against was lack of "fairness" -- i.e. men who had an expectation of what women should do for them, without doing anything for anyone, but not necessarily against submission -- big difference that i learned in my first explicit power-exchange relationship. i thought i was basically vanilla; i was pretty sure i was vanilla, but i found that i really wasn't and never was. =p

masochism came a lot easier -- there were certain painful situations i found myself in when growing up that i would just sit and "experience," if that makes any sense. i dont know where it came from, though i have ideas, but again -- i choose not to link something i enjoy to something i am horrified by, soooo there's that.but i think from the first time i had sexual fantasies, there was an element of S&M or bondage or something to it. i can remember trying to tie my wrists to my headboard REALLY early on, and not knowing why but thinking it was fun. =p hahaha
after we got the internet out there, i stumbled across kinky porn and found that other people were tying each other up, too. =p

i think, even for people who discover things late in life, there has always been the propensity, but they didn't have the chance to really explore it until later. i do think there are elements of every expression of sexuality that are innate to some degree. about a week ago, i chatted with an older sub guy who was amazed by all these younger people who seem to "know what they want;" but before the internet, it was harder for people to find others like them, and i think they hid out because of shame. i imagine older sub males had it the worst (and sub males in general probably still have the hardest time =p), because they were struggling against a culture that was telling them "You're a MAN, damn it!"
the internet has made things so much more accessible for people, which makes things easier. without the internet, i probably wouldn't have found out about kink and the lifestyle until much MUCH later.

as far as vanilla conversion goes, i haven't seen a lot of people really have success with that. it might be easier to get someone to placate your fantasies for a little while, but making a lifestyle out of it? i just haven't seen that go well with vanilla conversions (though i won't say i'm any kind of expert -- DEEEEFINITELY not =p). what i respond to the most from men is Dominance/leadership qualities and an active brain; the kink/BDSM stuff is icing on top. i do, however, admit that i really enjoy the kink, and so i choose to try to date kinky people, rather than men who happen to be dominant but also vanilla. And yeah -- the "ethics" of trying to convert someone... i don't even want to think about any of that.

but in general, i'm not a fan of "do nothing" sorts -- a lot of people seem to think that being Dominant means you don't have to do anything, or the expression of Dominance is chained to doing or not doing certain actions or activities, rather than simply being a natural aspect of the personality. i like cooking for a guy who can cook, i love cleaning and doing laundry for a guy who will do it; i don't like doing it for someone who thinks he "can't" or "shouldn't." =p i want to serve a Man, not be his mother. =p



TotalDiscipline -> RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" (2/18/2011 11:53:04 AM)

I have no clue what I am..neither do I want a theory behind it.
Am I dominant? that is for others to decide. I don't care much.



SailingBum -> RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" (2/18/2011 1:06:54 PM)

I dont agree with the premise that ppl are born that way. Do you really believe that ppl are born to be say the president or ditch digger? It boils down to a life choices that we make as we muddle thru life. If you subscribe to the theory that ppl are born that way how do you explain a switch???? It's all your life experiences that make you who you are.

BadOne



TotalDiscipline -> RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" (2/18/2011 1:11:16 PM)

agree with that.

Always saw "I am a born ..." as a replacement for "True"



ThePeripatetic -> RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" (2/18/2011 1:34:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

I dont agree with the premise that ppl are born that way. Do you really believe that ppl are born to be say the president or ditch digger? It boils down to a life choices that we make as we muddle thru life. If you subscribe to the theory that ppl are born that way how do you explain a switch???? It's all your life experiences that make you who you are.

BadOne


I see your point and I agree to an extent. I think there's definitely a combination of nature and nurture. As to what the ratio is, hell if I know. In response to your question about switches, again, hell if I know. They're an anomaly.

quote:

It's all your life experiences that make you who you are.
But I don't subscribe to this point. I could decide from today onwards that I'm going to be a Dom. I can start training with some Dom friends. Work on my most commanding voice, practice my single-tail skills, etc. etc. Basically invest a lot of time and energy into becoming the best damn Dom I can be. But I guarantee you that 5, 10, 15 years down the road I'm still going to be a shitty dominant. I'm not "wired" that way. Never have been and never will be.

Now what exactly that is, whether it's me being "born this way", don't know for sure. I don't know what you would call it.





Reform -> RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" (2/18/2011 2:22:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic
So I guess I'm asking whether that D/s “essence”, that “je ne sais quoi” of BDSM, is truly something you either have or you don't? Do you bother pursuing relationships with “vanillas” perhaps thinking that they have an inner-kinky animal just dying to be released? Or have you found that this is too much wasted effort and only date other kinky persons?


It probably is something you just have, however if you have been led to believe what the media tells you about kink (that you're sick, wrong, perverted), you may shy away from it. My boy was very shy and nervous to try anything kinky because of past barriers he had put up. Now he's doing quite well that I've helped tear some of them down.

I don't date, so I don't date kinky. I ended up with a great guy who I noticed some sub tendencies in, and tried converting him. My converting him meant I had to convert myself into a domme (making me a switch) at the same, so it's been a pretty fun ride.

quote:


And if you happen to be a “vanilla convert”, do you think it was a matter of you just discovering what had been lying dormant? Or did someone help mold and guide you toward that “essence”? Perhaps it was all just a game at first but then you hit a point where it “clicked” and suddenly became more than a game?


I'm answering for him because he doesn't visit sites like this, but yes, I'd say it was a matter of time. He had his own kinks and perversions that weren't BDSM, but it was very easy to put that spin on the play we were already doing. I still wouldn't say we're in the "lifestyle" or anything, but every day it feel like more is clicking into place.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum
I dont agree with the premise that ppl are born that way. Do you really believe that ppl are born to be say the president or ditch digger? It boils down to a life choices that we make as we muddle thru life. If you subscribe to the theory that ppl are born that way how do you explain a switch???? It's all your life experiences that make you who you are.

BadOne


Even though I'm a switch I'd still say I was born this way, even though my desire to switch was a thought I acted upon. I have been a masochist since I can remember, and I was a bossy as hell little kid. All the ingredients were there for the making, I just had to stir in the right way ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic
I see your point and I agree to an extent. I think there's definitely a combination of nature and nurture. As to what the ratio is, hell if I know. In response to your question about switches, again, hell if I know. They're an anomaly.


An anomaly? As in we don't make sense? Do you have any specific questions for switches I might be able to answer?



LillyBoPeep -> RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" (2/18/2011 3:07:53 PM)

i think with something like sadism/masochism, you can be born with a propensity for it, or with neuro-transmitters that somehow affect the way you process/think about sensations.
but being Dominant or submissive is a personality thing, and personalities have SOME input from genetics, but are also built out of experience/reaction to stimuli.
that's basically the gist of my long, rambling post. i think we can have an inclination toward certain personality traits, and those are either encouraged or discouraged by our environment and experiences.



gungadin09 -> RE: That deep-seated kinky "essence" (2/18/2011 3:14:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

I dont agree with the premise that ppl are born that way. Do you really believe that ppl are born to be say the president or ditch digger? It boils down to a life choices that we make as we muddle thru life.

And, yet, faced with similar circumstances, different people will make different choices. Why is that, if it's not because of who we are?

If you subscribe to the theory that ppl are born that way how do you explain a switch????

Why can't a switch be "born that way"?

It's all your life experiences that make you who you are.

BadOne


Personally, i think who we are is a combination of nature and nurture. In my case i explain my fascination with kink as being an genetic predisposition that needed to be acted upon by my experiences in order to bring it out.

pam



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