Submission vs. Surrender (Full Version)

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LillyBoPeep -> Submission vs. Surrender (2/18/2011 8:35:59 PM)

Roight, so i am stealing a topic from (that F-word site) because I've been thinking about it off and on for the past couple of hours, wrote a rambling journal about it, and I wanted to see what the denizens of CM would come up with about it.

What is your opinion of the concept of surrender? On the other site, LuckyAlbatross gave these two definitions, which i agree with --
"Submission is simply operating under the authority of another. Surrender is giving yourself completely over without resistance."
What does "without resistance" mean to you? I don't think resistance is always an outright fight about something, but sometimes it's the little mental gymnastics you play, even when you do obey. I don't really believe you can ever get rid of them (or that you should get rid of them) -- if your rule is simply to obey, you can do that in spite of "ifs" and "buts."
A lot of the chicks on "that other site" discussed it as something that was a desirable state, while one poster said it was completely NOT an option, because it was about having no choice, while submission IS a choice. Is there an element of duress necessary for surrender? Is this something you shoot for?



NihilusZero -> RE: Submission vs. Surrender (2/18/2011 8:49:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

What is your opinion of the concept of surrender? On the other site, LuckyAlbatross gave these two definitions, which i agree with --
"Submission is simply operating under the authority of another. Surrender is giving yourself completely over without resistance."

I like that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

What does "without resistance" mean to you? I don't think resistance is always an outright fight about something, but sometimes it's the little mental gymnastics you play, even when you do obey.

I would draw a difference between "without resistance" and "without difficulty" here. If "little mental gymnastics" refers to intentional psycho-sparring, then I don't see it as emblematic of surrender. If, however, you're talking about the process of managing the speedbumps on the way to a more fluid level of yielding, then that's certainly a realistic issue.



LillyBoPeep -> RE: Submission vs. Surrender (2/18/2011 9:01:15 PM)

intentional psycho-sparring isn't what i mean, i just mean, like you said, the process of managing the speedbumps.
so do you see resistance as a more active thing, like sabotage or fighting back? and difficulty being more of a passive thing?



NihilusZero -> RE: Submission vs. Surrender (2/18/2011 9:52:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

intentional psycho-sparring isn't what i mean, i just mean, like you said, the process of managing the speedbumps.
so do you see resistance as a more active thing, like sabotage or fighting back? and difficulty being more of a passive thing?


I'm tempted to make it mostly an active thing. If emotional or psychological issues are making things complicated, that still involves both partners working in trustful unison towards the goal of greater fluidity. Perhaps it could end in less than stellar results, but that would be either an issue of relationship incompatibility or self-incompatibility (where we fail to become what we seek to be, for whatever reasons).

Admittedly, sometimes it can be hard to tell the difference between someone just failing but having genuine intents and someone engaging in that psycho-sparring, but that's where we'd each have to apply our honesty-detectors.



sexyred1 -> RE: Submission vs. Surrender (2/18/2011 9:57:23 PM)

I do think the two terms are just the same thing, semantics.

But...surrender somehow seems to connote a more romantic notion than submitting.

Surrender brings to mind being overpowered, while submitting brings to mind, force.




Palliata -> RE: Submission vs. Surrender (2/18/2011 11:41:10 PM)

Resistance in the form of mental hangups and bumps in the road is not intentional or active - it isn't something the sub is doing to subvert control. To me, that's what means that it can exist and still have the surrender of control be in some sense complete - those things need to be worked through and corrected, but the sub is giving themselves over to that process and agreeing not to actively interfere with training. There are always going to be little mental challenges, especially when exploring new territory, but if they give over their conscious mind to me then the subconscious can be dealt with in its own good time.

As to desirability, to me that's the end goal of it all. Once you've built enough trust, and found yourself compatible enough, the ideal should be to bring your relationship into a state where complete obedience is a possibility. That said, I do run across people who want a relationship with a bit of "fight" so my perspective is certainly not universal. I don't understand them myself, but then I don't really understand latex fetishists either and there's nothing wrong with them.



porcelaine -> RE: Submission vs. Surrender (2/19/2011 12:36:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

What does "without resistance" mean to you? I don't think resistance is always an outright fight about something, but sometimes it's the little mental gymnastics you play, even when you do obey. I don't really believe you can ever get rid of them (or that you should get rid of them) -- if your rule is simply to obey, you can do that in spite of "ifs" and "buts."


Greetings,

I understand the concept she's referencing and I happen to agree. It is commonplace to read how an individual complies but is working from a different place internally. I'm not a proponent of that and I've articulated the differences in the past. In respect to the question posed, I believe it's a conscious willingness to cede and align myself with his wishes and perspective, particularly when I know they're in opposition. This isn't mere calibration, but a constant self policing that eradicates barriers between the two.

The notion of if and but are difficult for me to support. One idea comes to mind and its a clear awareness of his aptitude and trust in his ability to lead. I view the retention mentioned as an impediment to coalescence and fear based portions of self that I'm needlessly hanging on to. The more I retain the less I surrender, and its an aspect of my person that he isn't privy to. Perhaps that's an acceptable compromise for some, but one I'm unable to stomach. It's hard to ignore the partiality and the deed is incomplete in my eyes. 

quote:

Is there an element of duress necessary for surrender? Is this something you shoot for?


Duress isn't the enemy and discomfort needn't be viewed from a negative context. Resistance is the culprit and is typically present due to an unwillingness to accept moments of uncertainty, vulnerability, or an aversion to fear. While I don't always enjoy the periods of internal wrest I've undergone, I've emerged much stronger because of them. I cannot allow uninvited elements to impede my descent.

Namaste,

~porcelaine



leadership527 -> RE: Submission vs. Surrender (2/19/2011 2:03:02 AM)

How about those definitions??
I think the "without resistance" part, like all of BDSM, is hyperbole. That being said, I also know that at some point maybe 9 months ago something changed in Carol and the level of resistance dropped to zero in most cases. It was certainly breath-taking if not quite as absolute as the typical BDSM wisdom might suggest.

A lot of the chicks on "that other site" discussed it as something that was a desirable state,
It is for us.

...because it was about having no choice
I don't think of Carol as having choice or consent anyway so no loss there.

Is there an element of duress necessary for surrender?
I wouldn't have any idea. I know that there is a large element of duress in our dynamic though because, go figure, I'm dominant and she's not. That's why I don't think of her as consenting.

Is this something you shoot for?
Uh, not exactly. I hadn't anticipated it although in hindsight I should've guessed given that I was pressing her to internalize her status as property.



TotalDiscipline -> RE: Submission vs. Surrender (2/19/2011 3:05:45 AM)

Personally I think they words are the same. But people will always look for different descriptions to look special.
It is ofcourse their good right, because for them...the feelings they have..are special.
But I would say..live your life...submissive..or surrendered,,,



LillyBoPeep -> RE: Submission vs. Surrender (2/19/2011 4:09:34 AM)

i came to the conclusion that there's this romantic notion of surrender, and there's the scary notion, and then there's reality which might be somewhere between the two or might be somewhere else altogether. i'm still pretty ambivalent on this topic. i don't think it started out as a "i want to feel special" thing, the other chick who started this topic was genuinely wanting to know.  and for some, that subtle nuance between them makes them totally different mental states.
it is possible that it's all semantics, but definitions for surrender nearly always include some element of "compulsion or demand" to quote m-w.com haha), while submitting does not, or it's referenced as "giving up."  i think the word gets used romantically - everyone entertains romantic ideals at some point in their life, i'm sure - so i'm trying to avoid romanticizing it by sticking to blunt dictionary definitions. =p  however, the way it's lived, which bland definitions don't account for, especially not the way words are used here, i think submission for a good chunk of people IS sometimes about giving in to a demand, and there is duress involved, and there are all the little moments where you're doing something you're afraid of, or something you dislike, in order to please or concede to the will of the Dominant partner.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
If emotional or psychological issues are making things complicated, that still involves both partners working in trustful unison towards the goal of greater fluidity. Perhaps it could end in less than stellar results, but that would be either an issue of relationship incompatibility or self-incompatibility (where we fail to become what we seek to be, for whatever reasons).

maybe that kind of internal incompatibility is what's being dealt with with terms like "surrender" -- a person who wants to submit, yet struggles against it, but finds him/herself yielding at the end of the "struggle" because of some force from outside; i don't know.

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
Duress isn't the enemy and discomfort needn't be viewed from a negative context. Resistance is the culprit and is typically present due to an unwillingness to accept moments of uncertainty, vulnerability, or an aversion to fear. While I don't always enjoy the periods of internal wrest I've undergone, I've emerged much stronger because of them. I cannot allow uninvited elements to impede my descent.

i can agree with that; if you're actively resisting something it can come from those things, but i don't necessarily think that "ifs" and "buts" are always a part of active resistance. i tend to be a questioning person, and it has nothing to do with having no faith in someone, or with resisting the uncertainty -- or maybe it does. maybe i haven't been totally honest with myself about that. something else to ramble about at 5 in the morning. hahahaha
i've run into more than one person who takes those small questions as a sign of some huge lack of faith, but i tend to only see it as wanting information, even while in the middle of doing the task, just because i want information, or i feel like the other person doesn't totally understand my viewpoint. i guess that would depend on the reasoning -- if there's no time to explain, or a bunch of other stuff happening, etc, vs. just someone who doesn't want to explain, or can't explain... i have a difficult time not voicing the "ifs" but i think it's better to voice them and have them answered, than to let them sit and come up with my own reasons or explanations. but not wanting to give an explanation could just be part of the territory -- maybe i don't always actually NEED explanations as much as i think i do (which could be some sort of control thing that i haven't yet been able to give up), and maybe the "ifs" really are some form of resistance.

i know internalizing is something i shot for in the past; right now i just find myself in a lot of situations that confuse me and offer too many contradictions and instability, but in the past internalizing the status was important to me to get out of certain mindsets while reinforcing others. i do think duress is a part of that process, and i think attempting to avoid duress altogether is shooting for a goal that's probably not even possible.  and yeah -- some of this "without resistance" stuff is probably being overemphasized by a lot of people (maybe that's where the "i want to feel/be special" stuff comes in =p haha), who portray themselves as never giving a second thought to an order, even if they do all the time. people are often not very truthful about their internal realities. and also, you have the people who see "without resistance" and read "like a zombie" -- i don't think the two are the same at all.

leadership527 - have you ever cared to think about why the level of resistance dropped? can you illuminate that at all, or do the "whys" not really matter to you?





sockit2me -> RE: Submission vs. Surrender (2/19/2011 9:09:29 AM)

Surrender and submission are synonymous as far as I can tell. To submit to the idea of there being any difference between them I would have to surrender my definitions of the words. I would gladly do that eventually even if at first I resisted. Differences without distinctions abound in forums online.



leadership527 -> RE: Submission vs. Surrender (2/19/2011 9:26:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep
leadership527 - have you ever cared to think about why the level of resistance dropped? can you illuminate that at all, or do the "whys" not really matter to you?
Yup, let me elaborate.

What was going on at the time was two things. I'd reintroduced to her what I had always called "the red sheet" (only because I printed it in a reddish font the first time lol). It contained this quote (reproduced in authentic red-ness for full effect)

Somewhere along the way, I stopped acting like a slave and became one. I quit feeling as if I was entitled to privacy or to wearing, eating or doing what I wanted. I began to think of myself as my Master’s property not just consciously but subconsciously as well.


This was about at the 2.5 year mark for us after the transition from vanilla. I was pressing her on internalizing what it means to actually be owned... not as a synonym for "we're a couple" but as a literal statement. Well, there was some non-trivial friction between us over the point... largely because Carol is not a conceptual thinker and "owned" is not a tangible concept. But there were other aspects of the lack of internalization which were causing serious issues for us. In short, Carol was resisting. I wouldn't allow her to resist.

The outcome of all of that was after a few weeks of pondering and a trip away to visit her folks, she came back to me having really internalized her role as belong to someone else. She was my property in the same way she was my wife. It's just an unquestioned fact of life. I started seeing different patterns. Like, for instance, when she'd get a troublesome command there used to be much grumbling and whatnot. Afterwards she tended to just shrug her shoulders and say, "Well, I'm yours". Or if she disagreed with something I said I'd see her work her own thoughts around to my viewpoint and say, "What master says is right, is right." It's like those trite phrases somehow became real to her just like saying, "The sun will come up tomorrow".

As I said, it's not the absolutes that are commonly tossed around in BDSM-land. But it is real and I think a more precise way to say it would be "She internalized her role as property". "Surrendered" is just more romantic.



porcelaine -> RE: Submission vs. Surrender (2/19/2011 10:24:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

i can agree with that; if you're actively resisting something it can come from those things, but i don't necessarily think that "ifs" and "buts" are always a part of active resistance. i tend to be a questioning person, and it has nothing to do with having no faith in someone, or with resisting the uncertainty -- or maybe it does. maybe i haven't been totally honest with myself about that. something else to ramble about at 5 in the morning. hahahaha


Greetings Lilly,

There's an overabundance of mind fuckery in BDSM that makes my headache. I don't believe questions are bad and clarification is always ideal if needed. However, there are instances in life when one must act and information may not be forthcoming. I observe an endless need to complicate and introduce levels of complexity to matters that are relatively simple in scope. Where some add on I elect to strip away and reflect on the core truth that the foundation rests upon.

quote:

i've run into more than one person who takes those small questions as a sign of some huge lack of faith, but i tend to only see it as wanting information, even while in the middle of doing the task, just because i want information, or i feel like the other person doesn't totally understand my viewpoint


Some people are analytical by nature and often have difficulty moving if doing so doesn't make logical sense. While it's a normal way of interaction for you, it is an impediment from my perspective. We cannot flow if he must continually stop and fill me in on the details. Perhaps I'm comfortable making a blind leap or I simply trust in the person at the helm. I suspect it's a bit of both. I can honestly admit I don't spend moments questioning things in the manner mentioned. I control my mind, it cannot operate in the reverse. For me that's imbalanced.

quote:

i guess that would depend on the reasoning -- if there's no time to explain, or a bunch of other stuff happening, etc, vs. just someone who doesn't want to explain, or can't explain... i have a difficult time not voicing the "ifs" but i think it's better to voice them and have them answered, than to let them sit and come up with my own reasons or explanations. but not wanting to give an explanation could just be part of the territory -- maybe i don't always actually NEED explanations as much as i think i do (which could be some sort of control thing that i haven't yet been able to give up), and maybe the "ifs" really are some form of resistance.


I'm sure some may disagree, but I don't always give voice to my concerns. I taste them first to ascertain if they're genuine or misplaced fears rearing their head. You see, in my mind I have no verifiable reason to move in a different direction. Therefore, when my feet come to a halt I seek to understand why the current has ceased its natural flow. That doesn't entail an indepth explanation for the course undertaken, but a sincere desire to overcome my reluctance to move in tandem.

quote:

i know internalizing is something i shot for in the past; right now i just find myself in a lot of situations that confuse me and offer too many contradictions and instability, but in the past internalizing the status was important to me to get out of certain mindsets while reinforcing others. i do think duress is a part of that process, and i think attempting to avoid duress altogether is shooting for a goal that's probably not even possible.  and yeah -- some of this "without resistance" stuff is probably being overemphasized by a lot of people (maybe that's where the "i want to feel/be special" stuff comes in =p haha), who portray themselves as never giving a second thought to an order, even if they do all the time. people are often not very truthful about their internal realities. and also, you have the people who see "without resistance" and read "like a zombie" -- i don't think the two are the same at all.


One of the unfortunate realities of communication are the important elements we're not privy to. I will candidly admit that my constitution has been a long time in the making. It is not the culmination of one particular influence but the internalization and expulsion of principles that have brought me closer to my real self and the other party in the process. I'm uncertain of the perspective others have for this subject matter, but I acknowledge mine stem from Eastern studies and practices that have greatly impacted my person. My questions often unravel and leave a trail of crumbs that I eagerly gobble up.

Whenever I resist, doubt, question, etc. there's always an influencing factor at its core. I've seen the damage the tentacles can cause and the cancerous erosion that occurs if I allow it to remain unaddressed. Reassurance is not undesired, but a constant need for its presence feeds a beast that will only grow larger in time. I choose to resist myself in deference to him. That is really the one I'm battling.

Namaste,

~porcelaine



NihilusZero -> RE: Submission vs. Surrender (2/19/2011 3:37:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
If emotional or psychological issues are making things complicated, that still involves both partners working in trustful unison towards the goal of greater fluidity. Perhaps it could end in less than stellar results, but that would be either an issue of relationship incompatibility or self-incompatibility (where we fail to become what we seek to be, for whatever reasons).

maybe that kind of internal incompatibility is what's being dealt with with terms like "surrender" -- a person who wants to submit, yet struggles against it, but finds him/herself yielding at the end of the "struggle" because of some force from outside; i don't know.

*nod*

Another thing that popped into my head that I would consider a differing facet is that I think "submission" is approached in a "month-to-month payment plan" kind of way, where "surrender" is approached in a "lump sum payment" kind of way; meaning, I get the sense that submission involves a waking up each day and making the reaffirmation of choice to continue on the current path of submission, whereas "surrender" puts someone into a locked 'contract' (figuratively) unless the contract itself is violated somehow.

It's a subtle difference and, honestly, I'm not sure if there may necessarily be functional differences between the two in practice, but theoretically I see it as an important distinction.



NihilusZero -> RE: Submission vs. Surrender (2/19/2011 3:41:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

As I said, it's not the absolutes that are commonly tossed around in BDSM-land. But it is real and I think a more precise way to say it would be "She internalized her role as property". "Surrendered" is just more romantic.

*hits the facebook 'Like' button*



agirl -> RE: Submission vs. Surrender (2/20/2011 4:39:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

"Submission is simply operating under the authority of another. Surrender is giving yourself completely over without resistance."

What does "without resistance" mean to you?

Is there an element of duress necessary for surrender?

Is this something you shoot for?



*Without resistance* to me, means that I do NOT resist his authority. Both he and I know that there are plenty of things that I'd rather not have to do at various times. I don't even have to voice them, he KNOWS before he even asks whether I will find it a struggle or not.

There's no duress needed for me to *surrender* because I already know that I have...that occured years ago. I could submit in a *prettier* way sometimes, by plastering a smile on my face to mask the grimace, but we both know that gritted teeth lay behind my lips......lol

Surrendering is done.

Submitting, however, is always going to be a pride-swallowing, frustrating pain-in-the-arse for me at TIMES. That goes with the territory because I'm not submissive. Neither he, nor I expect submitting to be easy, we both DO expect it to be done though, nevertheless......lol

agirl



LillyBoPeep -> RE: Submission vs. Surrender (2/20/2011 6:14:09 AM)

thank you for all of these interesting perspectives. ^_^ my brain is feeling like a marathon runner -- so much pondering!



InvisibleBlack -> RE: Submission vs. Surrender (2/20/2011 9:44:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep
i don't necessarily think that "ifs" and "buts" are always a part of active resistance. i tend to be a questioning person, and it has nothing to do with having no faith in someone, or with resisting the uncertainty -- or maybe it does. maybe i haven't been totally honest with myself about that. something else to ramble about at 5 in the morning. hahahaha


I think there's a big difference between "wanting to understand" and so asking questions - that urge comes from a desire to do things right or to get a better mindset around the Dominant's way of thinking which, in the long run, will result in better performance in whatever area from the submissive - and the sort passive-aggressive resistance that is continually questioning as a way of stalling or pushing back the request.


quote:


i've run into more than one person who takes those small questions as a sign of some huge lack of faith, but i tend to only see it as wanting information, even while in the middle of doing the task, just because i want information, or i feel like the other person doesn't totally understand my viewpoint. i guess that would depend on the reasoning -- if there's no time to explain, or a bunch of other stuff happening, etc, vs. just someone who doesn't want to explain, or can't explain... i have a difficult time not voicing the "ifs" but i think it's better to voice them and have them answered, than to let them sit and come up with my own reasons or explanations. but not wanting to give an explanation could just be part of the territory -- maybe i don't always actually NEED explanations as much as i think i do (which could be some sort of control thing that i haven't yet been able to give up), and maybe the "ifs" really are some form of resistance.


In general, in life and not just D/s - I've found that confident people typically have no issue with explaining themselves or what it is they're trying to do while those who lack confidence often refuse to explain their reasoning or find ways to tap-dance around doing so. However, sometimes there isn't time for an explanation, or the time needed to explain the reasoning behind something is longer than simply performing the task is, or sometiems the easiest way to understand the whys of something is just to do it.

I am usually more than willing to explain myself (at great length and in enormous detail) but there are times when I will simply get a certain look on my face and say "just humor me" because I believe the reasoning will become self-evident once whatever-it-is is done.

All of this being said - I think a lot of this questioning/wanting to understand/needing to know interaction is something that crops up in the early stages of the relationship. Over time, assuming the D/s dynamic is successful and trust is established and grows, the need to continually question would be replaced by more of an understanding of the Dominant's competence and/or ability and the need for questioning would only up for something truly out of the ordinary or unusual.

I can certainly explain that I want you to turn all the plants every couple of months so that they grow evenly rather than end up all leaning in the direction of the sun but after six months or a year, I would hope I wouldn't always have to. No matter when or where we are, if I told someone to stick their hand in a spinning turbine blade, I'd hope they'd ask me why.


quote:

i know internalizing is something i shot for in the past; right now i just find myself in a lot of situations that confuse me and offer too many contradictions and instability,


Now, see - this I view as exactly the opposite of resistance. If something or some combination of things I've said or ordered is causing confusion or appear to be in contradiction with each other - I want to know. Odds are it's a miscommunication or I haven't thought something through properly (yes, this does happen). I don't view the submissive as being confused and struggling to figure out what I mean or what I'm looking for as part of a good dynamic or healthy overall for the relationship. I tend to get upset when a submissive doesn't voice their concerns or blindly does something that they must know will result in something I'm not happy with rather than just say "I don't understand - do you really want X? It doesn't make sense to me."


To quote Caddy Shack:

Carl: "Check me on this, Sandy - if I kill all the golfers on the course, they're gonna lock me up and throw away the key."
Sandy: "No! Not golfers, you idiot! Gophers! The little brown furry rodents!"
Carl: "I can do that. I don't even need a reason."
Sandy: "Well, do it man!"

Sometimes asking questions is good.



CalifChick -> RE: Submission vs. Surrender (2/20/2011 10:26:58 AM)

To me "submit vs surrender" is just another sub vs. slave argument. 

quote:

I get the sense that submission involves a waking up each day and making the reaffirmation of choice to continue on the current path of submission, whereas "surrender" puts someone into a locked 'contract' (figuratively) unless the contract itself is violated somehow.


I hear this sort of thing all the time - "submission is a choice, a slave has no choice", but in reality, I don't see it.  It would be the same to me as saying that loving someone is a conscious choice you make every day.  No, you just live it.  It's not a constant choice or a constant decision.  Good heavens, that would wear me out. 

Cali



leadership527 -> RE: Submission vs. Surrender (2/20/2011 10:43:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick
To me "submit vs surrender" is just another sub vs. slave argument.

Perhaps some use it that way. God knows that people will take any excuse whatsoever to claim social status. But the way I use the term "surrender" to mean "the internalization of the role of property" is a perfectly normal, natural thing which will probably happen to everyone if the relationship works out well enough.

quote:

I hear this sort of thing all the time - "submission is a choice, a slave has no choice", but in reality, I don't see it.  It would be the same to me as saying that loving someone is a conscious choice you make every day.  No, you just live it.  It's not a constant choice or a constant decision.  Good heavens, that would wear me out.

I generally think that a lot more discussion about what is meant by "choice" is required before anything meaningful can come of that conversation. I certainly agree though that any choice which needed to be reviewed ACTIVELY moment by moment would be tiring. I don't think that's what is meant by this statement though. Rather, I think that it ties back to that whole "agreement" thing and what was or was not included within the agreement which formed the basis of the consent which shaped the submission/slavery.... all of which seems weird to me.



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