RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... (2/28/2011 4:37:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
Who has the money in American politics ?

Big Business usually supports the Republicans.

Bullshit. Business supports both parties, and which receives the most support changes based on expectations on who will have power.

It does, but he's correct that it has favored Republican coffers.

Should be interesting now that the Teas have realized that cap and trade makes economic sense, and they're appalled business would support this "liberal" idea (which had its roots in H.W. Bush's pollution credits...opposed by liberals).




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... (2/28/2011 4:55:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
Who has the money in American politics ?

Big Business usually supports the Republicans.

Bullshit. Business supports both parties, and which receives the most support changes based on expectations on who will have power.

It does, but he's correct that it has favored Republican coffers.

Should be interesting now that the Teas have realized that cap and trade makes economic sense, and they're appalled business would support this "liberal" idea (which had its roots in H.W. Bush's pollution credits...opposed by liberals).



Pollution credits are NOT the same as cap and trade on CO2, not even close, unless you're in DomKens bizarro world.

And you might take a look at the contributions to Obama vs McCain from business.



Aneirin -> RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... (2/28/2011 5:10:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: liks2plzlf

The bible says it belongs to the Jews,period. Who is in possesion of the land now?


The Bible also says adulterous women should be stoned to death*. When you advocate that as part of our law today, I might start to wonder if biblical pronouncements could possibly be relevant to 21st century international relations.



* "If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;" (Deuteronomy 22:22)

"Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you." (Deuteronomy 22:24)



Good point !

If the Bible is to be used as the source of ancient rights, those rights have to be questioned if the bible/holy scripture also contains what we now know to be wrong, be it law or science proved inaccuracy or just plain fallacy.

Either one believes in the bible, or they don't, picking and choosing what one wants to believe is not acceptable, one is either a believer or not.

And as for this which revision does one prefer, well I would expect the oldest interpretation is the correct one, and the rest modified interpretations for the prevailing politics at the time, or how to screw people up further once one has got them by the balls with religion.



tweakabelle -> RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... (2/28/2011 8:16:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

[The US_Israel alliance] makes perfect sense. You seem to think that Israel is the only nation in the ME we support, including proclaimed enemies of Israel. that Israel receives the most support is because their ideals are most similar to ours. Take off your blinders before you comment on the sense of a policy regarding a country you obviously are biased against.


Previously, willbeurdaddy has asserted that the only solution to the ME crisis is a military one (ie crushing Palestinian resistance militarily). So he might pay more attention to Gen Petreaus' words than mine:

"There was nothing casual in General David Petraeus' session with the Committee on Senate Armed Services. Far from being off-the-top-of-the-head responses to senators' questions, Petraeus, the commander of the US Central Command, brought a considered 12,000-word document, in which he framed the Israel-Palestine conflict as a "root cause of instability" and an "obstacle to peace" that played into the hands of Iran and al-Qaeda.

"Petraeus ditched a cornerstone of neo-conservative dogma by charging that perceived US favouritism for Israel fomented anti-American sentiment across the region.

"The enduring hostilities between Israel and some of its neighbours present distinct challenges to our ability to advance our interests," he said. "Arab anger over the Palestinian question limits the strength and depth of US participation with governments and peoples in [my area of responsibility].

"Meanwhile, al-Qaeda and other groups exploit that anger to mobilise support. The conflict also gives Iran influence in the Arab world through its clients, Lebanese Hezbollah and Hamas." *


or Biden's sentiments, as reported in the same article:

"And it is likely that this internal debate informed Biden's reprimand to Israel's Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, in the days before Petraeus went public: "What you're doing here undermines the security of our troops fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan."

In his choice of words, Biden as good as told Netanyahu that Israel was responsible for American deaths in the region."


The entire article, written last year after Israel's deliberate snub to US V-P Biden, is well worth checking out.

* http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/the-big-shift-us-puts-israel-on-notice-20100329-r5ho.html (29 March 2010)



Kirata -> RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... (2/28/2011 8:35:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Either one believes in the bible, or they don't, picking and choosing what one wants to believe is not acceptable, one is either a believer or not.

Do you really wish to argue against the exercise of discernment in religion?

K.



Kirata -> RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... (2/28/2011 8:40:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

"Petraeus ditched a cornerstone of neo-conservative dogma by charging that perceived US favouritism for Israel fomented anti-American sentiment across the region."

US favoritism for Israel is having effects that are not limited to "the region".

The Silence of a Nation

K.



tweakabelle -> RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... (2/28/2011 9:11:21 PM)

I've tried several times to view the vid you suggested. Unfortunately the audio refuses to play for me. Is there a text version of his remarks available anywhere?



Kirata -> RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... (2/28/2011 10:04:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I've tried several times to view the vid you suggested. Unfortunately the audio refuses to play for me. Is there a text version of his remarks available anywhere?

The music and visual content of the previously linked video was added to Hedges' remarks from this speech, if perhaps you'll have better luck with it. I do not have a link to a transcript, however.

K.



tweakabelle -> RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... (2/28/2011 10:47:45 PM)

Alas that didn't work either! It's a conspiracy! ([:D])

Hedges seems like an interesting person - thanks for alerting me to his existence! I managed to find his blog and am hoping the following excerpt about the Gaza atrocity will encapsulate the sentiments you are trying to convey:

"The Israeli government bears the responsibility for its crimes. But by giving credibility to the lies and false narratives Israel uses to justify wholesale slaughter we [the West, especially the Western media] empower not only Israel’s willful self-destruction but our own.
[.....]
[The press] chattered about nothing. It obscured the facts. It did this while hundreds of women and children were torn to shreds by iron fragmentation bombs in a flagrant violation of international law. And as it failed it lauded itself for doing “a fair, balanced and complete job."
http://www.truthdig.com/report/page2/20090126_with_gaza_journalists_fail_again/ my emphasis

If this is your point, I can only endorse it. At a more pragmatic level, the consequences of Western (not just US, we're all implicated) expediency in our dealings with 'the region' are currently boomeranging on us in the most unambiguous way - the West is an impotent spectator in the most tumultuous events in the Arab world since the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

I have often read the similar sentiments in Haaretz, the Israeli paper. So there is some awareness of the dangers in Israel, possibly more so than the rest of the West. I believe Hedge's identification of the potential for self-destruction here is valid and accurate.

Fortunately it's not too late to turn things around and to begin to deal with both Israel and the Arab world in an honourable fashion.



liks2plzlf -> RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... (2/28/2011 11:24:47 PM)

Much of the old testament of the bible is about history, those things do not happen in Israel today. Maybe the Muslim countries, I don't know. But there is much prophecy in the old testament also. Gensis 17: 7-8 God makes an everlasting convenant to Abraham and his descendants after him. The whole land of Canaan I give you as an everlasting possession. I don't believe that Israel is ever going to give it back.



Anaxagoras -> RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... (3/1/2011 7:14:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL:
"The Israeli government bears the responsibility for its crimes. But by giving credibility to the lies and false narratives Israel uses to justify wholesale slaughter we [the West, especially the Western media] empower not only Israel’s willful self-destruction but our own.
[.....]
[The press] chattered about nothing. It obscured the facts. It did this while hundreds of women and children were torn to shreds by iron fragmentation bombs in a flagrant violation of international law. And as it failed it lauded itself for doing “a fair, balanced and complete job."

It is truly absurd for Hedges and others to accuse the international media of anti-Palestinian bias. There was immense coverage of the war in Gaza. It was very frequently on the front page of newspapers and given priority on TV news shows and 24 hr news channels. In fact if you want to see the obsessiveness of the international media toward Israel and the Palestinians then all you have to do is compare it with coverage of other conflicts. Around the same time as the Gaza war, there was a war in Sri Lanka which had more than ten-fold the number of civilian casualties and caused hundreds of thousands to flee. It got quite minor levels of coverage on TV and in papers. The media has been like this for a long time.

Big news institutions like Reuters, Associated Press and the BBC accepted uncritically Hamas’ casualty figures, which turned out to be dubious, e.g. they asserted that 300 children had died after the first week of the Israeli retaliation even before the ground invasion – this had to be untrue because they are now claiming 300 or so children died in the entire conflict. I recalled the name Chris Hedges in relation to middle-east coverage http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_article=4&x_context=2 and that he made repeated claims of ethnic cleansing in the Gaza war but even according to the raw data of casualties produced by aggressive anti-Israeli NGO, Palestinian Center for Human Rights, which led the allegations of war crimes, shows that demographically around 70% of Gazan’s killed were males of the most relevant age for combat. This does not support claims of indiscriminate killing, and neither does Hamas’ admission in September of last year that at least half the killings were their operatives.

Hedges denies that the launching of 8,000 rockets over a few years had anything to do with the war itself when these things were causing a great deal of damage in nearby towns in Israel. Here are two of quite a few YouTube videos I checked out recently about one of the towns called Sderot, which date to mid 2007, a year and a half before Israel invaded Gaza when of course the “international community” wasn’t listening, and neither was the media: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDkLhVc-ggY and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfvBGzMZcE8 - the people there were subjected to near daily attacks for quite a few years. With only seconds to shelter many fled, resulting in depopulation. The attacks continued although at a low level since the war. It intensified again during Christmas and a missile very nearly killed a large number of children at a school before Egypt pressured Hamas to stop.



Kirata -> RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... (3/1/2011 10:12:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
quote:

ORIGINAL:
"by giving credibility to the lies and false narratives Israel uses to justify wholesale slaughter we [the West, especially the Western media] empower not only Israel’s willful self-destruction but our own.... [The press] chattered about nothing. It obscured the facts. It did this while hundreds of women and children were torn to shreds by iron fragmentation bombs in a flagrant violation of international law.

It is truly absurd for Hedges and others to accuse the international media of anti-Palestinian bias. There was immense coverage of the war in Gaza.... compare it with coverage of other conflicts. Around the same time as the Gaza war, there was a war in Sri Lanka which had more than ten-fold the number of civilian casualties and caused hundreds of thousands to flee. It got quite minor levels of coverage on TV and in papers.

Firstly, your objection that "there was immense coverage" does not speak to bias -- and may in fact compound it. Secondly, you ignore that the violence suffered by civilians in Sri Lanka was not being perpetrated against them with advanced weapons systems supplied by the US. And that's just in your first paragraph!

So with that kind of a start, I think I'll pass on reading the rest. Thanks all the same.

K.



Anaxagoras -> RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... (3/1/2011 11:13:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
quote:

ORIGINAL:
"by giving credibility to the lies and false narratives Israel uses to justify wholesale slaughter we [the West, especially the Western media] empower not only Israel’s willful self-destruction but our own.... [The press] chattered about nothing. It obscured the facts. It did this while hundreds of women and children were torn to shreds by iron fragmentation bombs in a flagrant violation of international law.

It is truly absurd for Hedges and others to accuse the international media of anti-Palestinian bias. There was immense coverage of the war in Gaza.... compare it with coverage of other conflicts. Around the same time as the Gaza war, there was a war in Sri Lanka which had more than ten-fold the number of civilian casualties and caused hundreds of thousands to flee. It got quite minor levels of coverage on TV and in papers.

Firstly, your objection that "there was immense coverage" does not speak to bias -- and may in fact compound it. Secondly, you ignore that the violence suffered by civilians in Sri Lanka was not being perpetrated against them with advanced weapons systems supplied by the US. And that's just in your first paragraph!

So with that kind of a start, I think I'll pass on reading the rest. Thanks all the same.
K.

Kirata what a shame you didn't bother reading the post because it would have addressed your further points, and there is no need to thank me since I wasn't replying to you particularly - I assume you don't wish to hear a different point of view.

To address the points in your response: Firstly, immense coverage cannot infer bias against Palestinians, it could be bias one way or the other. I wasn't talking about advanced weaponry one way or the other but rather coverage of the issue which Hedges suggested was weak - that the media was more interested in chattering was his contention in the article. Secondly, I briefly addressed the issue of anti-Palestinian bias by pointing out that virtually all the major international news agencies took Hamas' figures at face value and advanced them. Casulties are a very important aspect of propaganda so why would they have done that if the international media is pro-Israeli? Why would they have done it when it is well known that Palestinians have played fast and loose with casulty figures in the past - e.g. Jenin where it was claimed 500 civilians were killed, it was in fact seven. In fact some sections of the media appear to have colluded with Palestinians such as over the Mohammad al Durrah case, which was revealed to be a faked staged event after the material was investigated. I'm not suggesting the media generally colludes as I don't believe that to be true but the above does not fit in with pro-Israel bias.

If you want to take issue with the US supplying weaponry to Israel due to civilian casulties, then perhaps you should compare the civilian tolls in Afghanistan and Iraq. You will find that Israel has less to answer for in this regard than the US.



Moonhead -> RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... (3/1/2011 12:01:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
Kirata what a shame you didn't bother reading the post because it would have addressed your further points, and there is no need to thank me since I wasn't replying to you particularly - I assume you don't wish to hear a different point of view.


And I thought that I had a black belt in irony...



Politesub53 -> RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... (3/1/2011 12:16:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

I assume you don't wish to hear a different point of view.


Oh the irony.

quote:


If you want to take issue with the US supplying weaponry to Israel due to civilian casulties, then perhaps you should compare the civilian tolls in Afghanistan and Iraq. You will find that Israel has less to answer for in this regard than the US.


This was mentioned in Kirata`s link, or didnt you notice.



Anaxagoras -> RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... (3/1/2011 2:16:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
Kirata what a shame you didn't bother reading the post because it would have addressed your further points, and there is no need to thank me since I wasn't replying to you particularly - I assume you don't wish to hear a different point of view.


And I thought that I had a black belt in irony...


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

I assume you don't wish to hear a different point of view.


Oh the irony.

Sorry but what is this nonsense about irony from the two of you. He said he chose not to read my post, which he assumed was in reply to him. I said I assumed he did not wish to hear another perspective on this issue. We are bombarded by pro-Palestinian view points throughout the media so I am familiar with all or virtually all pro-Palestinian views on the issue. When I reply to pro-Palestinian posts I also address pretty much 100% of the content on them so I "hear" those viewpoints.

I also find it amusing that Moonhead doesn't even have the decency to acknowledge that I wasn't defending Luckydawg "to the hilt" - in fact I went to some effort to point out to Lucky that I didn't think both him/her and Politesub weren't anti-Semitic but then sarcastically jumps on tittle tattle on here from those that defend Israel. I don't care for Moon's attitude at all. Moonhead thinks I spoke up for Luckydawg but in fact I defended Moonhead from comments Luckydawg made. Moonhead seems unable to grasp this point despite the fact that I said it again and again and again , and criticised me repeatedly on the Palestine threads for the same. I also read the abuse he/her said on the termite's thread - this is how he speaks about those that defended him/her. Its pathetic and completely unthinking. At this stage I can only think that Moonhead's fucking attitude stinks.

quote:


quote:


If you want to take issue with the US supplying weaponry to Israel due to civilian casulties, then perhaps you should compare the civilian tolls in Afghanistan and Iraq. You will find that Israel has less to answer for in this regard than the US.

This was mentioned in Kirata`s link, or didnt you notice.

I wasn't able to access the link for some reason but I wasn't actually responding to the link in ant case. Rather I was responding to what I had quoted from the post just above it or didn't you notice? Furthermore Kirata said he objected to the US military supplying Israel due to civilian casulties. Is it then not reasonable to point out that civilian casulties from US actions are worse in some instances so why would the US take the high moral ground with Israel considering their record?



ashjor911 -> RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... (3/1/2011 5:22:20 PM)

I really did not understand most of the show
If any one can help me with that?
Most part that i did not understand was (Israel is indanger speciase) ?
as a proud Palestinian i would say this kind of speach is why we hate american goverment not the american people....



Moonhead -> RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... (3/2/2011 5:00:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
Sorry but what is this nonsense about irony from the two of you.


This here:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
I assume you don't wish to hear a different point of view.


Given your own hostility to any viewpoint that differs from your own it's nearly as ironic as Rob Zombie's attitude towards rednecks, dig?



Anaxagoras -> RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... (3/2/2011 6:33:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
Sorry but what is this nonsense about irony from the two of you.


This here:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
I assume you don't wish to hear a different point of view.


Given your own hostility to any viewpoint that differs from your own it's nearly as ironic as Rob Zombie's attitude towards rednecks, dig?

Moonhead I am beginning to wonder is your head really is made from moon rock since I repeatedly defend you,repeatedly justified a modest stance and still you attack me sometimes abusively, and here I already gave a proper answer in post 56.

It was not ironic for myself to say he was not open to other points of view because I was responding to a point in his post by saying "I assume you don't wish to hear a different point of view." where he said he deliberately chose not to read the rest of my post to which he was replying: "that's just in your first paragraph! So with that kind of a start, I think I'll pass on reading the rest." By contrast I read every pro-Palestinian post and very often respond to the long ones in a step by step detailed response. Therefore my behaviour contrasts because I "hear" the other side. What you're doing as Politesub did is to confuse listening to or "hearing" other points of view with actually agreeing with them. There is a genuine difference y'all.

It also isn't true to say I am hostile to points of view that differ from my own. I am only "hostile" to those that seem to wilfully misrepresent many issues to do with the conflict, and also very often personally attack those defending Israel. Dig?



tweakabelle -> RE: Is this one of the reasons why Palestinians..... (3/5/2011 4:02:24 AM)

quote:

Later, hardline settlers burned tyres and blocked roads in Jerusalem and smashed the windscreens of Palestinian cars in the West Bank. Homes and cars in two Palestinian villages were attacked on Tuesday in what settlers described as "price tag" action in retaliation for Israeli government measures against settlements.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/01/israeli-settlement-west-bank-demolished


Israeli colonists attack Palestinian villages after a spat with their Israeli Govt in which Palestinians weren't directly involved. They described their actions as a "price tag".

A "price tag'? What is going on here? Are Palestinians just items on the supermarket shelf? Are they merely punching bags for whenever the colonists are in a bad mood? Do the colonists regard Palestinians as human beings or inanimate objects?

One could be forgiven for thinking we are talking about apartheid-era South Africa. The kind of de-humanisation the colonists exhibit towards Palestinians has opened the door to horrors in the past, horrors the Jewish people are, tragically, all too familiar with.

I'm certain many many decent Israelis find the activities of the colonists repulsive. But if pro-Israelis are insisting putrid anti-Semitism is on the agenda, then surely equally putrid Israeli anti-Palestinian racism needs discussion too.

quote:


Demolition of the outpost follows international pressure on the Israeli government to curb settlement building, to encourage a resumption of peace talks with the Palestinians. [...]

The Israeli government decided this week to dismantle all unauthorised outposts built on privately-owned Palestinian land, in a move which is likely to spark further clashes. However, it will simultaneously begin moves to make official unauthorised outposts built on West Bank land under Israeli control. All settlements in occupied territory are illegal under international law.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/01/israeli-settlement-west-bank-demolished


Don't be fooled by Israeli claims of "voluntarily withdrawals". What is happening here is some outposts are being abandoned while others are being strengthened. A mere bureaucratic re-arrangement. The hand of the Israeli State is clearly complicit in the theft of the West Bank.

Everyone knows that Israel has to return these lands to Palestinian control if a viable two State peace settlement is to occur. So why is Israeli control being strengthened? Yet more evidence that Israel has no intention of returning the colonies. Yet more evidence of Israel sabotaging a peace process already on its last legs because of Israeli colonisation and intransigence.



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