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Why identify? - 2/25/2011 9:16:22 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I didn't want to upend the real slavery, less kink post so I am taking this question here instead.

If you have little to no kink in your relationship and what you have is a more traditional dynamic, ie, husband as head of household, why do you identify with domination/submission? If the man works and the woman stays home, that is how I grew up. I think that may be how many of you grew up. All that seems like normal stuff to me and not at all kinked. If I were a housewife I would say I was a housewife and not be concerned about people who assumed I was being stiffled in some way. If I were a housewife and occasionally indulged in kinky play I would think I was just like any other couple who need some excitement in their sex lives. I can't tell you how many "toys" I found in my parents drawers <<shudder>> but they were just ordinary people. My friends used to tell me they found similar items while exploring.
I don't understand why anyone would identify with bdsm (d/s) if kink was not a major part of the component.
So, why do you choose to identify?
I am genuinely curious here.


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pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
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RE: Why identify? - 2/25/2011 10:04:09 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Because it's not about staying at home and being a housewife. It's about the authority in the relationship.
The BDSM are actions. And those actions are fun and enjoyable, but they aren't what define me as a person. I'm old fashioned, I don't list Ds and Ms within the BDSM acronym and never have. Now, when I am bottoming or topping, maybe that's different then... and also when Master implements discipline, it's not automatically kink related, it's because he has authority, not because he's getting off on it.

I'm bound to him, I am disciplined by him but that doesn't have to be kinky.

Urgh.. sorry Missokyst, editing to add... that the 'identifying' for us is simply because when we are out with others, it's good to label yourself so that people can identify you. People often say, 'who cares what other people think'... well of course you care, because that's how you make new friends and meet people who have the same ideas as you so you can become friends or get contacts.
Networking rocks.

< Message edited by RCdc -- 2/25/2011 10:14:34 AM >

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RE: Why identify? - 2/25/2011 11:08:30 AM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst
If you have little to no kink in your relationship and what you have is a more traditional dynamic, ie, husband as head of household, why do you identify with domination/submission?

Becuase... uh... they both have at least some minor elements of dominance and submission in them so there's an obvious corollary. Further, when you look at what "traditional marriage" REALLY means, it's more like "non-consensual slavery" than anything Carol and I are doing. I do not identify one little iota with "traditional marriage". I am repulsed by it.

If the man works and the woman stays home, that is how I grew up. I think that may be how many of you grew up. All that seems like normal stuff to me and not at all kinked.
It's not kinked. What's that got to do with anything?

If I were a housewife I would say I was a housewife and not be concerned about people who assumed I was being stiffled in some way. If I were a housewife and occasionally indulged in kinky play I would think I was just like any other couple who need some excitement in their sex lives.
Yup. In fact, one of the ways I describe Carol is, "My ordinary, perfectly normal vanilla wife who just happens to obey."

but they were just ordinary people.
I believe in "ordinary people" even less than I believe in the Easter Bunny. I've never personally met an ordinary person.

I don't understand why anyone would identify with bdsm (d/s) if kink was not a major part of the component.
Because D/s is? Am I missing something? Specifically I find enough overlap on the D/s components to make discussion here worthwhile so I say. I don't exactly identify as either BDSM or kink.



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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Why identify? - 2/25/2011 12:06:08 PM   
LillyBoPeep


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Becuase... uh... they both have at least some minor elements of dominance and submission in them so there's an obvious corollary. Further, when you look at what "traditional marriage" REALLY means, it's more like "non-consensual slavery" than anything Carol and I are doing. I do not identify one little iota with "traditional marriage". I am repulsed by it.



i agree with this so much, i don't know what to say. =p
for me "traditional marriage" just would not work. it's based in these ideas about gender roles that i don't subscribe to. it's "do it because you're supposed to," there's nothing conscious and intentional about it.
it is more like nonconsensual slavery. things that rely on "this is just how it's supposed to be" are just not for me, and that tends to be the basis of "traditional"  or "old fashioned" marriage.

i identify with dominance and submission because submission is a chosen active thing for me. i'm not an alpha personality, but it is still an active thing. it's about expressing the honesty of who you really are, rather than just subscribing to a role because you have certain chromosomes.


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RE: Why identify? - 2/25/2011 12:09:47 PM   
IronBear


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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

Because it's not about staying at home and being a housewife. It's about the authority in the relationship.
The BDSM are actions. And those actions are fun and enjoyable, but they aren't what define me as a person. I'm old fashioned, I don't list Ds and Ms within the BDSM acronym and never have. Now, when I am bottoming or topping, maybe that's different then... and also when Master implements discipline, it's not automatically kink related, it's because he has authority, not because he's getting off on it.

I'm bound to him, I am disciplined by him but that doesn't have to be kinky.

Urgh.. sorry Missokyst, editing to add... that the 'identifying' for us is simply because when we are out with others, it's good to label yourself so that people can identify you. People often say, 'who cares what other people think'... well of course you care, because that's how you make new friends and meet people who have the same ideas as you so you can become friends or get contacts.
Networking rocks.


Reading the bolded piece made me sit back and smoke another cigarette. I've never been a networking sort of bloke. I have networks of people from different areas of my life (Medieval, Military, Fishing and Business as well as Kink). All obviously based on similar interests, work and what have you. Yet I am not or don't feel close enough to ring them socially. I'm just not a networking person and yet I do make very close connections at times based on mutual respect and the need to work closely with someone for a mutual goal or because there is an intimate attraction. I identify in what ever because it is a passport into that group. Medievally wise, I would be Known as a member of the SCA or what ever group I affiliate with. Same with business, professionally and Kink. I find that it often not a matter of self identification, but others identifying you and placing a label on you. Frankly the thought of having to go and meet a whole pile of relative strangers terrifies the bejasus out of me.


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RE: Why identify? - 2/25/2011 12:14:26 PM   
LaTigresse


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Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		The funny thing is, that while I grew up hearing the man was the head of the household and how the woman should honour and obey him......yada yada yada..........what I actually SAW in action was quite the opposite. 

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RE: Why identify? - 2/25/2011 12:16:39 PM   
LillyBoPeep


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

The funny thing is, that while I grew up hearing the man was the head of the household and how the woman should honour and obey him......yada yada yada..........what I actually SAW in action was quite the opposite. 


hahaha and then there's THAT.
this is so often the case in rural families.
and when basic skills to take care of yourself are relegated to "women's work" -- like cooking and finding groceries and doing laundry, it's funny to see the "heads" lose their heads with very basic things.
makes it difficult to believe in that "traditional" ideal.


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RE: Why identify? - 2/25/2011 12:23:35 PM   
leadership527


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Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep
makes it difficult to believe in that "traditional" ideal.

What makes it impossible to believe in for me is that it's artificial and therefor, a joke. When you give authority to someone who is incapable of wielding it BADTHINGS(tm) happen. When you try to get someone to submit and they are in fact dominant BADTHINGS(tm) happen. I've always laughed at role based authority -- it always ends up being paper-thin.


_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Why identify? - 2/25/2011 12:25:13 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

I didn't want to upend the real slavery, less kink post so I am taking this question here instead.

If you have little to no kink in your relationship and what you have is a more traditional dynamic, ie, husband as head of household, why do you identify with domination/submission? If the man works and the woman stays home, that is how I grew up. I think that may be how many of you grew up. All that seems like normal stuff to me and not at all kinked. If I were a housewife I would say I was a housewife and not be concerned about people who assumed I was being stiffled in some way. If I were a housewife and occasionally indulged in kinky play I would think I was just like any other couple who need some excitement in their sex lives. I can't tell you how many "toys" I found in my parents drawers <<shudder>> but they were just ordinary people. My friends used to tell me they found similar items while exploring.
I don't understand why anyone would identify with bdsm (d/s) if kink was not a major part of the component.
So, why do you choose to identify?
I am genuinely curious here.


Because what we do isn't really traditional?

There are folks who state that they enjoy D/s with no kink. (Let's not muddy the issue with those who say they enjoy just a little kink, let's talk about those on here who are D/s with NO kink). Many people...perhaps even you from the sound of your OP...identify these people as "traditional".

But............it isn't. In quite a few of those traditional relationships, the wife disobeyed. From what many submissives on here say, that is not an option within their dynamic/relationship. So right there is one shift from traditional.
In many of those traditional relationships, the wife's opinions were often listened to half-heartedly or not at all and though this may not have been her choice, she was resigned to it. In a great many D/s relationships, the submissive's opinion is often asked for. Her insight into her own submission and her wants and needs for the relationship are often asked for in order to maintain smooth running of the relationship.

One of the biggest variants I see is this...many of those women entered into those relationships out of love but also because they were raised to expect this. Their main choice was WHICH man do I marry? Submissive women nowadays not only have the choice of WHICH dominant should I choose...they also have at the base this question...which dominant suits ME in terms of my needs, my wants, my expectations of him as a dominant? They also do not enter into the relationship knowing there is expectation of (at least tacit) obedience and yet still struggling for power, they CHOOSE to enter the relationship with the OBEDIENCE spelled out with no expectation of a power struggle. In traditional relationships, so often it is what LaTigresse...smart lady that she is...said: "The funny thing is, that while I grew up hearing the man was the head of the household and how the woman should honour and obey him......yada yada yada..........what I actually SAW in action was quite the opposite." That is not what happens in D/s dynamics...or it is not supposed to...the one who states he/she is in charge...is.


I don't always agree with leadership but that is one thing I am in agreement on...there is an AUTHORITY dynamic in place...or should be...before the relationship is entered into.

< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 2/25/2011 12:34:55 PM >

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RE: Why identify? - 2/25/2011 12:29:59 PM   
LillyBoPeep


Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

What makes it impossible to believe in for me is that it's artificial and therefor, a joke. When you give authority to someone who is incapable of wielding it BADTHINGS(tm) happen. When you try to get someone to submit and they are in fact dominant BADTHINGS(tm) happen. I've always laughed at role based authority -- it always ends up being paper-thin.



gaaaaaah so much agreement!!
i can't stand it. ^_^ haha
it DOES become a joke. a joke being passed off at truth, which just makes me bristle. i can't get behind that, and certainly can't live my life by it.




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RE: Why identify? - 2/25/2011 1:03:58 PM   
sexyred1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

The funny thing is, that while I grew up hearing the man was the head of the household and how the woman should honour and obey him......yada yada yada..........what I actually SAW in action was quite the opposite. 


I never heard the man was the head of the household and the woman should obey him.

I heard and saw my parents who loved and liked each other, both worked, raised me and my brothers, fought and made up, showed love and affection, had sex and used toys (yes, it was weird to find that out, but that's what sneaky kids get for searching their parent's drawers when they were out).

I always identified with an equal distribution of work and authority in my household.

For me, BDSM, always has been and always will be based on my sexuality. That drives it, not a service need. Within a partnership, I just assume that we will both be servicing each other and the relationship itself and how that expresses itself, is up to me and whomever I am with.

I could not be in a relationship where I was not respected, especially respected for that part of my nature that is submissive. I would defer to my partner on life issues because I respected their opinion, not because of a D/s authority dynamic. This is not right or wrong, it is just how I roll.

But this is just another example of how widely differing we all are in our roles and labels.

< Message edited by sexyred1 -- 2/25/2011 1:05:45 PM >

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RE: Why identify? - 2/25/2011 1:10:34 PM   
ImaginativeWhims


Posts: 81
Joined: 2/8/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

I don't understand why anyone would identify with bdsm (d/s) if kink was not a major part of the component.
So, why do you choose to identify?
I am genuinely curious here.



To answer the italics:

Because they like the dynamics of the groupings around them and the general community is more understanding of a paired/married couple where servitude is involved. Try explaining Jeff and Carol's marriage to your parents... they're gonna look at you like you've lost your bananas.

To answer the bold:

For them it's a matter of preference, I would gather.

For me? It's so when people call me a pervert I can answer, "You're just jealous."


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RE: Why identify? - 2/25/2011 1:40:39 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		Well, it isn't the housewife/hubby roles...... In my parent's day, that was expected for all sorts of reasons, varying from financial to social pressure.

Apart from never having lived with M, (what a thought!) we look like a right old 1950's pair......The difference is we ARRANGED it. The bdsm has fuck-all to do with it. Being *kinky* has nothing to do with it. The fact that we agreed who was the boss, and why, DOES matter, though.

We choose to identify as a a pair of rather kinky people because we KNOW we are. If there was little to no kink, well....... we obviously KNOW that we chose an M/s relationship, so why would the *kink* matter?

Kinky stuff is the crust, M/s is the whole damn pizza. The difference? We asked for it, we decided on it, we wanted it, we chose it knowing EXACTLY what it meant, the kinky bit may well ebb and flow but the M/s HAS to be there for us to have ANYTHING.

agirl
 

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RE: Why identify? - 2/25/2011 3:33:46 PM   
Prinsexx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

I don't understand why anyone would identify with bdsm (d/s) if kink was not a major part of the component.


The answer is simply becasue you don't understand.
I mean why would you ID as a lesbian if you were not or even feel the need to question someone's resons for the way they ID?
I understand why I ID as I do and that's because it empowers other people to understand me a little better.

Prin: bdsmlgbtia

< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 2/25/2011 3:34:45 PM >

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RE: Why identify? - 2/25/2011 4:04:49 PM   
sweetsub1957


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Joined: 4/28/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst
If you have little to no kink in your relationship and what you have is a more traditional dynamic, ie, husband as head of household, why do you identify with domination/submission?

I used to be in a very vanilla marriage where he didn't want me to work, so I didn't. He made the money so he controlled it. Other than that, we were very "equal" and it was definitely not D/s. We both had equal input to most decisions. There were no Dominant/submissive roles where one was to obey the other.

Daddy and I don't have THAT much actual "kink" in our relationship either, but it's still definitely D/s. So, as I experienced it, the "traditional dynamic" and "D/s" are two different things.

< Message edited by sweetsub1957 -- 2/25/2011 4:06:09 PM >

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RE: Why identify? - 2/25/2011 4:16:17 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		Actually, Jeff and Carol's relationship was very much like my parents. My mom obeyed. Yet they were not kinky. Sure he listened to my moms opinion, but he always had the final say. They just thought they were like anyone else. And they were, for the time. I was just wondering when the way things were, suddenly turned abnormal enough to need to identify it with kink.
If I were not kinky I would not choose to take on that label.
But I am. I am twisted, kinked, perverted, ect ect. It's not a role I chose, its a role that fit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ImaginativeWhims

Because they like the dynamics of the groupings around them and the general community is more understanding of a paired/married couple where servitude is involved. Try explaining Jeff and Carol's marriage to your parents... they're gonna look at you like you've lost your bananas.

To answer the bold:

For them it's a matter of preference, I would gather.

For me? It's so when people call me a pervert I can answer, "You're just jealous."




_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley


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RE: Why identify? - 2/25/2011 4:19:10 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		The day I stop researching is the day I wish to die, thats why.
lol another thing I cannot understand is why people choose to not look into why people do the things they do.
But I recognise I am anal that way.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx
The answer is simply becasue you don't understand.
I mean why would you ID as a lesbian if you were not or even feel the need to question someone's resons for the way they ID?
I understand why I ID as I do and that's because it empowers other people to understand me a little better.

Prin: bdsmlgbtia



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pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley


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RE: Why identify? - 2/25/2011 4:31:28 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		I've never really cared about why people do things or what they label themselves. I'm just not a very curious person. It holds no interest for me. I just shrug my shoulders and move on to the next thing I'm doing.

For me I have always been in male led relationships, man as head of household. It's part of my religion in which i grew up and I"m comfortable and happy in that situation. I'm also comfortable and happy in a bdsm kink male dominant relationship also. I never searched JUST for a bdsm relationship. I always searched for a male dominant led relatinship and that's what I got in Master. He is a sadist and that's probably the difference for us. If I had found a man who wasn't into kink or bdsm or whatever you want to call it I'd probably be just as content as long as he was a male dominant personality.

The only thing I really identify as is a female submissive personality. I'm submissive no matter what man I happen to be with. It's just who I am, always has been.


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RE: Why identify? - 2/25/2011 5:09:25 PM   
gungadin09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst
I don't understand why anyone would identify with bdsm (d/s) if kink was not a major part of the component.


Let's say:
The Wards and the Cleavers live across the street from each other. Both couples are living 1950's style marriages, with the husband acting as the head of household and breadwinner, and the wife staying at home, cooking, cleaning, raising the kids. In each couple, the partners love and respect each other. They communicate with each other and each expresses his or her concerns. However, the husband is the ultimate authority in the home and the wife accepts his judgement as final.

In both couples, the husband and the wife have made a deliberate *choice* to live this way, because they find it the most fulfilling and happy way to live, and not simply because they were brought up this way. For each of them, living like this is an expression of who they are. Neither couple has done anything remotely kinky in the bedroom, ever.

For all intents and purposes they are living exactly the same lives. The only difference is that the Wards have joined a BDSM website to blog about their D/s relationship, and the Cleavers haven't, because they think of themselves as "ordinary people" whose lives have nothing to do with BDSM. They may even abhor the idea of BDSM. And yet, the only difference between the two couples is in their perception of themselves. Why do the Wards identify with BDSM and the Cleavers not?

i don't know *why* they do. Maybe because it seems slightly rebellious and sexy to identify with a kind of subculture, and that turns them on. Maybe because they see Dominance and submission as something that they share with kinksters, and having that in common makes them part of the same group, with the slight variation in their case of there being no kink. Maybe it's not that they *identify* with the BDSM community per se, as much as no other label exists that describes them any *better*.

i don't think there's any better answer to your question than to say this: that people will identify with a group because they want to, and because they perceive themselves in a certain way. They will pick the label that most nearly fits who they think they are.

pam

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 2/25/2011 5:21:39 PM >

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RE: Why identify? - 2/25/2011 5:16:27 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		My mother was an at home wife, which does not at all mean that my father had command over the household. He didn't. It was her arena entirely. She didn't do what he said, she did not submit to his commands, he wasn't dominant over her. They divided their responsibilities, each in charge of their own area. This is how a traditional Jewish household works, the male had his power outside the home, the woman was responsible for the home. This is how most of our friends and family operated.

And this is why I do consider us d/s even though we don't have a lot of play. Because he does have the right to order me about and ride roughshod over my wishes when he thinks it's necessary. It isn't about the kink, it's about the authority.

My father never put in a request for a specific meal, The Man only tonight announced that all he wanted was soup and a sandwich.


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