RE: "strong submissive"? (Full Version)

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porcelaine -> RE: "strong submissive"? (2/27/2011 5:15:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll

I bolded tha part that gave me the giggle... funny when they wanna do it to you it's all kinky fun and games.


But of course. It's on his terms. [;)]


quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

That's where I find the concept normally breeds from. It is then usually bolstered by suitors who find greater allure/fulfillment in a more "challenging" catch, enabling the boisterousness for boisterousness' sake and granting it more heft.


They usually have a tug-o-war element to their dynamic. The push and pull is initiated and desired by each party. I think that's far easier to convey than the backwards way they're going about discovering one another. And it inevitably leads to assumptions regarding heavy handedness that are taken out of context. They operate under the fallacy of extremism for something that is truthfully their fetish.

Namaste,

~porcelaine



DesFIP -> RE: "strong submissive"? (2/27/2011 5:53:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
My opinion is along these lines, with strong = emotionally healthy and able to handle life's challenges.


I've had thirty odd years of therapy. I'm aware of all my issues. I have healthy boundaries. What exactly do you mean by emotionally healthy?

I also have some genetic mood disorders and don't consider myself strong. I'm known to crumble when I hit a problem and then dust myself off and handle it because really, what other options do we have?

I don't think any of this makes me strong. And I think there is as much space here for someone like me, someone weak, as there is for someone strong. He's got more than a touch of white knight in him which suits me just fine. I've got issues that will always exist (see genetic disorder) which means I'll always need him. The fact is that we are probably one of the healthiest couples around simply because we are both self aware. Which has nothing to do with me being weak.



agirl -> RE: "strong submissive"? (2/27/2011 7:31:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
My opinion is along these lines, with strong = emotionally healthy and able to handle life's challenges.


I've had thirty odd years of therapy. I'm aware of all my issues. I have healthy boundaries. What exactly do you mean by emotionally healthy?

I also have some genetic mood disorders and don't consider myself strong. I'm known to crumble when I hit a problem and then dust myself off and handle it because really, what other options do we have?

I don't think any of this makes me strong. And I think there is as much space here for someone like me, someone weak, as there is for someone strong. He's got more than a touch of white knight in him which suits me just fine. I've got issues that will always exist (see genetic disorder) which means I'll always need him. The fact is that we are probably one of the healthiest couples around simply because we are both self aware. Which has nothing to do with me being weak.



Oh come on, how does you espousing being in therapy for 30 yrs and being self-aware mean you're *one of the healthiest couples around*?

What are you basing that on?

agirl







oceanwynds2 -> RE: "strong submissive"? (2/27/2011 8:29:06 PM)

Strong submissive to me is inner strength. Someone who when needs to can go through difficult situations and do more than survive. My strength is within. My physical body is not strong. I am though and always been a survivor, and strength/being strong got me through some very tough situations.



gungadin09 -> RE: "strong submissive"? (2/27/2011 8:58:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
My opinion is along these lines, with strong=emotionally healthy and able to handle life's challenges.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
I've had thirty odd years of therapy. I'm aware of all my issues. I have healthy boundaries. What exactly do you mean by emotionally healthy?

I also have some genetic mood disorders and don't consider myself strong. I'm known to crumble when I hit a problem and then dust myself off and handle it because really, what other options do we have?

I don't think any of this makes me strong. And I think there is as much space here for someone like me, someone weak, as there is for someone strong. He's got more than a touch of white knight in him which suits me just fine. I've got issues that will always exist (see genetic disorder) which means I'll always need him. The fact is that we are probably one of the healthiest couples around simply because we are both self aware. Which has nothing to do with me being weak.

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl
Oh come on, how does you espousing being in therapy for 30 yrs and being self-aware mean you're *one of the healthiest couples around*?

What are you basing that on?
agirl

Um... her own experience, maybe?

To me, kalikshama seems to be defining what makes a strong person, not what makes a strong relationship. It may be that in DesFIP's case, *not* being a strong person makes a strong relationship. But i can't imagine why anyone would be more qualified to judge that than DesFIP herself.

pam







Twoshoes -> RE: "strong submissive"? (2/27/2011 9:08:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
I also hear "Dominant personality choosing to submit" which is a very popular type of sub but not the type I want.


I'd like to address this "Dominant personality choosing to submit", while attempting to avoid ambivalent vocabulary.

Most people seem acclimated to the idea of a man having a leadership role in the public sphere and being submissive to a woman. Well, those personality types aren't specific to either gender and it is completely possible to come across the converse situation (although it is significantly rarer statistically).

How does this work? There are people with 'decision-making personalities', but often times they are geared toward decisions in different spheres of life (groups of people, close relationships, research, workplace, etc). When two people with such personalities meet, it only works out if they both have the same goals/values, which is when they tend to start deferring based on what they recognize as the other person's strength in a particular sphere. (Obviously, when around people who don't exhibit a preference for making decisions, you simply make most of the decisions.)

So, for example, I am much better at managing close relationships than anything else. I'm more flexible and willing to defer (if I think the person has expertise and an acceptable agenda) in other spheres. It just so happens that I find women who lead groups, manage people or have bold opinions to be indescribably attractive in terms of personality. And from my experience, these women will often defer to me in my area(s) of expertise if we have similar agendas. It's not a struggle as you may be inclined to believe, since people tend to be more willing to defer in areas that aren't their prime focus, especially if everyone involved is mature enough to know their strengths, while recognizing they need not be the best at everything concurrently.

So, when examining situations involving decision-making personalities ("dominant" in some sense), the sphere(s) they specialize in become extremely important. I've heard labels such as "socially" or "outwardly dominant", "inwardly dominant", "intellectually dominant", "sexually dominant", etc. Even if they come off as "strong" (in some sense), these personalities only clash if their prime focus is on the exact same area. There really isn't a contradiction if you understand it well enough.

The above describes perfectly vanilla interactions. It just so happens that D/s relationships involve people with various personalities, where control in terms of decision-making is fetishized.

As for the word "strong", it's best to ask for clarification, since the person using that label will probably be very interested in describing themselves further.



agirl -> RE: "strong submissive"? (2/27/2011 10:57:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
My opinion is along these lines, with strong=emotionally healthy and able to handle life's challenges.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
I've had thirty odd years of therapy. I'm aware of all my issues. I have healthy boundaries. What exactly do you mean by emotionally healthy?

I also have some genetic mood disorders and don't consider myself strong. I'm known to crumble when I hit a problem and then dust myself off and handle it because really, what other options do we have?

I don't think any of this makes me strong. And I think there is as much space here for someone like me, someone weak, as there is for someone strong. He's got more than a touch of white knight in him which suits me just fine. I've got issues that will always exist (see genetic disorder) which means I'll always need him. The fact is that we are probably one of the healthiest couples around simply because we are both self aware. Which has nothing to do with me being weak.

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl
Oh come on, how does you espousing being in therapy for 30 yrs and being self-aware mean you're *one of the healthiest couples around*?

What are you basing that on?
agirl

Um... her own experience, maybe?

To me, kalikshama seems to be defining what makes a strong person, not what makes a strong relationship. It may be that in DesFIP's case, *not* being a strong person makes a strong relationship. But i can't imagine why anyone would be more qualified to judge that than DesFIP herself.

pam








That's why I asked HER..and not anyone else.

agirl



kalikshama -> RE: "strong submissive"? (2/28/2011 3:17:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
My opinion is along these lines, with strong = emotionally healthy and able to handle life's challenges.


I've had thirty odd years of therapy. I'm aware of all my issues. I have healthy boundaries. What exactly do you mean by emotionally healthy?

I also have some genetic mood disorders and don't consider myself strong. I'm known to crumble when I hit a problem and then dust myself off and handle it because really, what other options do we have?

I don't think any of this makes me strong. And I think there is as much space here for someone like me, someone weak, as there is for someone strong. He's got more than a touch of white knight in him which suits me just fine. I've got issues that will always exist (see genetic disorder) which means I'll always need him. The fact is that we are probably one of the healthiest couples around simply because we are both self aware. Which has nothing to do with me being weak.


I feel like I am strong and emotionally healthy when I do the right thing, rather than the easy thing, when I move towards my goals and values, rather than take the path of least resistance.

Establishing healthy boundaries is a constant challenge for me and the universe keeps sending people my way to help me grow in this way.

I'm confused by the part in red so am not going to comment on it.



LillyBoPeep -> RE: "strong submissive"? (2/28/2011 7:15:19 AM)

i dunno what she means by the red part, but i think it's just about owning up to her idea that she's "weak," but her own definition. she doesn't feel like a strong person, but you know -- a lot of times when you say "hey, i'm weak," or "he's better at decisions/stronger than i am," people take that as some huge value judgment on women's rights and women's roles in the home and next thing you know, you've got a feminism/abortion debate.

sometimes that's just how other people's relationships work and there IS just as much room for a woman to say "i'm weak," as there is for one to say "i'm strong; who can tame me"

(and no, this is no reflection on me or my politics or whatever -- i figure i'm a "middle of the road" person. i can hold my own, be internally motivated, i figure i'm pretty self-aware -- self-awareness, to me, means not only knowing your strengths, but knowing/owning up to your faults, too -- but seek out a person who just might seriously be better than i am at something, like decisions. =p haha)



littleone35 -> RE: "strong submissive"? (2/28/2011 9:07:39 AM)

I have not read all the responses so if i repeat what omeone else had said sorry. I think ittakes stength to be a submissive. Strength to trust and give over power to another. I condiser myself to be a strong submissive, but in the way that i strongly desire to please my Master, to be the best sub i can for him. If tha is the case why is being strong a bad thing?

Matt's litleone



sinandhoney -> RE: "strong submissive"? (2/28/2011 9:17:30 AM)

I guess for me it depends on how the strength is presented. Is it I'm am strong because I accept myself as what I am. Or is it I'm strong because I'm not weak like those doormat submissives. If your strength is based on your character then goodie, but if it's as a value judgement on someone else then I tend to doubt how strong you really are. There are so many I am x because I can't be y, forgetting that there are many other letters in the alphabet.



porcelaine -> RE: "strong submissive"? (2/28/2011 10:35:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

a lot of times when you say "hey, i'm weak," or "he's better at decisions/stronger than i am," people take that as some huge value judgment on women's rights and women's roles in the home and next thing you know, you've got a feminism/abortion debate.


Here we go again. :)

I agree. Although I can't speak for others I will readily attest that I have grown stronger by acknowledging my weakness and gained a different perspective in tandem. I don't view it in the negative and recognize that it doesn't lessen my person, in many ways its added another dimension that's markedly better. There's something powerful about ones ability to say, "I need you." that is really a testament to your understanding that you cannot do x without his involvement. The words and the concept it embodies are very liberating.

quote:

sometimes that's just how other people's relationships work and there IS just as much room for a woman to say "i'm weak," as there is for one to say "i'm strong; who can tame me"


And both statements can be attractive. Sometimes strength can be an impediment and we're unable to allow the other person to utilize his strength for our benefit.

quote:

(and no, this is no reflection on me or my politics or whatever -- i figure i'm a "middle of the road" person. i can hold my own, be internally motivated, i figure i'm pretty self-aware -- self-awareness, to me, means not only knowing your strengths, but knowing/owning up to your faults, too -- but seek out a person who just might seriously be better than i am at something, like decisions. =p haha)


You nailed it on the head Sherlock. The men that own me are better, that's precisely why I want them. He offsets my weaknesses and expands my strengths. It's a nice arrangement. [;)]

Namaste,

~porcelaine



LillyBoPeep -> RE: "strong submissive"? (3/1/2011 4:27:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sinandhoney
There are so many I am x because I can't be y, forgetting that there are many other letters in the alphabet.


this is exactly what i've been trying to get at. =p nice
it's like people think that, in life, there are only two kinds of ice cream. there's either chocolate, or there's vanilla. sorry, but i'd really like peppermint. =p or maybe some moose tracks tomorrow. haha

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
He offsets my weaknesses and expands my strengths.


agreeeeeeed -- it's complementary/symbiotic to me. you can be a complete person (in as much as any person can really be "complete" -- i believe we're all works in progress, no matter who we are), while still finding someone who completes you, i.e. you're strong in one area where he's weak, and he's strong in another area where you're weak. you're simply complementary personalities who mesh really well, fill in the gaps where needed, etc.
i think that's very realistic. =)





Kana -> RE: "strong submissive"? (3/1/2011 6:30:57 AM)

When I read "strong submissive," I think good, cuz you are damn well gonna need to be strong to deal with me.

Frankly, its my belief that it takes a very strong person to give all of themselves in service.



DesFIP -> RE: "strong submissive"? (3/1/2011 11:57:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

Oh come on, how does you espousing being in therapy for 30 yrs and being self-aware mean you're *one of the healthiest couples around*?

What are you basing that on?

agirl



My issues aren't ever going to go away because they're genetic. Anymore than someone who inherited a heart murmur is going to manage to fix that. What we can do, is to learn what we need to do to manage these issues and manage within our limitations.

Us personally? No unexpressed expectations of each other. We talk it out. No secrets, you do know the saying "you're only as sick as your secrets"? I truly believe that holds true.



sunshinemiss -> RE: "strong submissive"? (3/1/2011 3:10:11 PM)

Now Celeste, you know doggone well that a True Dominant would order a True Submissive to make the heart murmer stop, and it would stop! Shame on you for your lack of faith.

sunshine



porcelaine -> RE: "strong submissive"? (3/1/2011 3:52:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

Frankly, its my belief that it takes a very strong person to give all of themselves in service.


Hmm, I don't know. I think it depends on the kind of service being given and where you are in the relationship. What's required in the beginning will differ from what you draw on five years down the road. I used to think the same way, but now I feel patience and trust have carried me further.

Namaste,

~porcelaine



Kana -> RE: "strong submissive"? (3/1/2011 11:10:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

Frankly, its my belief that it takes a very strong person to give all of themselves in service.


Hmm, I don't know. I think it depends on the kind of service being given and where you are in the relationship. What's required in the beginning will differ from what you draw on five years down the road. I used to think the same way, but now I feel patience and trust have carried me further.

Namaste,

~porcelaine



Ahhh, but I would argue that it takes a very strong person to trust. (Especially at the level of TPE-not many people can really fully let go of self and ego and trust with the faith of a child...and many of those fought internal battles to get to that point)
Grins.
And no less than an authority than Ghandhi said it takes a strong man to love...



porcelaine -> RE: "strong submissive"? (3/2/2011 12:41:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

Ahhh, but I would argue that it takes a very strong person to trust. (Especially at the level of TPE-not many people can really fully let go of self and ego and trust with the faith of a child...and many of those fought internal battles to get to that point)
Grins.
And no less than an authority than Ghandhi said it takes a strong man to love...


Greetings Kana,

I understand the place you're referencing and there is a great deal of trust involved to go there. I won't dispute that. But my ability to trust and let go (in the manner referenced) isn't due to strength, but simply because I trust him. Period. There's no wiggle room on this. I'm either in or out. Especially when we're addressing those uncomfortable and down right frightening realities that certain sinister types like to conjure. But in the midst of these things I know He's got me.

The way this plays out in my head is rather simple. A fear presents itself or something otherworldly is suggested. The mind wants to churn and fathom endless possibilities that are usually unwarranted. Enter the voice of reason. But... and I stop. I go back to the fundamental (foundational if you will) truth that cradles the relationship. If the feelings persist I follow with an honest question. Has he ever?... and I pause again.

Of course that doesn't suggest that I'm not quaking or horribly frightened and trying earnestly to silence that within. But I know, and that feeling must be present for me to go to the level you're speaking of in the first place. The knowing is the rock, the unchanging reality that allows me to endure the precipice and release my grasp. That doesn't require brawn, but the Right Man to put it there. I don't rely on my strength. I'm wholly dependent on him.

And as the saying goes... Build it and they'll come. [;)]

Namaste,

~porcelaine



81song -> RE: "strong submissive"? (3/2/2011 7:14:15 AM)

Strong sub? It s only after being under a Domme’s feet does one really realist how strong one really is. In our couture we are taught from when we are young how men have to always be on top (that’s funny). But I think it takes some guts to surrender to a Domme that one’s trust is taken ever so gently. On the other end of that coin I think as a sub we have many habits that have to be broken and this just takes time I think. That being said I am not going to just fall at the feet of just any Domme, she must prove to me there is a door of trust for me to walk in.



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