RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (Full Version)

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DomKen -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/3/2011 6:52:34 AM)

Take your bigotry and go away.



Anaxagoras -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/3/2011 6:59:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Anass, have you ever been to the ADL website ? And :

" don't want to play the termite's retarded little game "

Yet you are here.

I already addressed that point if you bothered to read the post properly. I was replying to a point that related to by actions on another thread rather than getting involved with your sordid thread.

quote:


What is home to you ? Asia, the middle east, Africa, the UK ? America, Iceland, Brazil, Yugoslavia ?

Totaly fucking irrelevant question. I can see the 'tard is trying to lead me into some stupid mind-numbing debate, and with that in mind I'll keep this aas brief as possible. I have been more than open about my place of residence on here.

quote:


Termite calling anass, pleas respond, 10-11.

Its comical how you judge the intellignece of others as typically on this forum you can barely put a coherent sentence together yourself.

quote:


"People use the old gem that the accusation of anti-Semitism is used to deflect criticism of Israel."

YOU called it a gem and on that we agree, it certainly is. for good fucking reason.

It seems you can't actually read properly. In the context of the post, the statement "people use the old gem that the accusation of anti-Semitism is used to deflect criticism of Israel" can only mean one thing - that others say accusations of anti-Semitism are used to deflect criticism.

quote:


"Before that neo-Nazi's used the same nonsense argument to say the charge of anti-Semitism limits criticism of the role of Jews and prevents questioning relating to the Holocaust."

It's not just neonazis, it's everyone who knows about the denial laws in Germany, and how shit really is. Any question of the official story is an impetus for criminal prosecution. Do you deny that the force of government is needed to prove the "truth" ? You can't be too familiar with politics you know.

< I put that there in anticipation of something, but it was not forthcoming.

That law actually relates to Holocaust denial. If someone denies the Holocaust as happened commonly in Germany after the war they are advancing a political agenda. Thus the question should be: do you deny the Holocaust? It wouldn't surprise me if the Termite did because he seems to subscribe to many nutty conspiracy theories such as Mossad being involved with 9/11 which he hinted at previously.

quote:


The question now is whether Semites had anything to do with the anti-Semitism that has been occuring spontaneously for a few THOUSAND years.

Your answer, you have the floor.
T^T

Here he is essentially saying the the Jews were at least in part responsible for anti-Semitism. This is exactly the same argument that Neo-Nazi's like David Irving often say. Anti-Semitism wasn't particularly extreme til they were labelled "christ-killers". Maybe I'm missing something but I actually wonder if there is something a bit "special" about the termite.



Moonhead -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/3/2011 7:02:14 AM)

To be fair, the whole Christ killing thing was a very big factor in medieval european antisemitism (just look at a few of the Canterbury Tales), so it's hardly surprising that you do get a few wingnuts in the religious right who are keen to revive that one.



Real0ne -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/3/2011 7:13:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
This world is very complicated and we as individuals can not experience life in every society so who are we to be the absolute judge.


Butch


but we are arent we?

worse we justify conquering whole countries just to show them how right we are and how wrong they are!



Anaxagoras -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/3/2011 7:41:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
To be fair, the whole Christ killing thing was a very big factor in medieval european antisemitism (just look at a few of the Canterbury Tales), so it's hardly surprising that you do get a few wingnuts in the religious right who are keen to revive that one.

You are quite right and I mentioned that in another post too. Rightwingers are not immune. From my own background there is still an under-current of anti-Semitism in some circles - the Bishop Williamson case was just scratching the surface: http://joodsactueel.be/2009/02/23/pius-x-anti-semitism/ - however, I do think the Vatican and mainstream Catholicism has reconciled itself with the hostility of its past with Jews, especially since Paul II visited Israel in 2001. I do think though that the prevalent trend of anti-Semitism comes from the left. Just last month in the UK those fuckwits the SWP were chanting anti-Semitic abuse at the head of the National Union of Students (NUS) who only looks Jewish but isn't.



mnottertail -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/3/2011 7:45:01 AM)

They may have reconciled themselves; surely, but not with the Jews so much. 



Anaxagoras -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/3/2011 8:00:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

They may have reconciled themselves; surely, but not with the Jews so much. 

Well yes and no is probably the answer. The Vatican led the demonisation of Israel in the early days of its existence and that continued for a long time which in part prevented other strongly Catholic countries like Ireland establishing diplomatic relations with the State. In 1967 the pope of the time visited but refused to even use the word "Israel". Things improved under Paul II in the 1990's and when he visited in 2001 and apologised for the hostility of the past things improved immensely and there is now a senior Jewish emissary at the Vatican. Its come a long way in a few decades since Catholics commonly used prayers that mentioned perfidious/treacherous Jews.



Termyn8or -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/3/2011 8:09:53 AM)

"Well yes and no is probably the answer."

Astounding precision.

T^T



Termyn8or -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/3/2011 10:58:28 PM)

Do we judge a people by the actions of their government ?

It seems the answer again is yes and no. If we do, that means that US citizens are culpable for the actions of our government. Then it would follow that all citizens are culpable for the actions of their respective governments. In marcs, this happened in pre WW2 Germany. The wealth of the people was taxed beyong reason to pay war reparations. That also means that every Russian alive at the time was respomsible for the actions undertaken by the Stalin government. They paid, dearly. Is every Libyan a patriot ? If what they say is true that Qaddafi is a dictator and holds power by force, is it our charge to extract the price from your average Joe or Achmed on the street in Libya ? Does that sound right to you ?

I didn't start this thread just to piss people off. Sure I wanted people pissed off, but because that brings out a few things. Revelations. (not the Bibile book) Mostly you held up better than I expected. Kudos on that. But understand my goal here. I want this subject out in the open, I don't want shoutdowns and all this shit.

Does anyone even still remember the actual purpose of an argument anymore ?

Now I think it really is agreed that sometimes the answer is yes and sometimes no. That means to the same question in identical circumstances. But what seems to be happening in the world is that people are told, rather than to think it out for themselves, which answer is right. This is wrong.

This is not just about Semites, but a good part of it is. Am I a bigot ? Consider this : Those people have a deathly fetish for a certain part of the world, to the point of idiocy. They will kill each other and even themselves over it. Does this seem fucking civilised to you ? If I say that about the Palestinians, the answer might be no, and if I asked the ssame question about the Jews the answer might be yes.

Semites are the most tribal people on this planet. More closely related than any others to one another, they are brothers at each others' throats. Day in and day out. All over one piece of rock. Others leave their rock when things get out of hand, how much emmigration is going on in the world ? There are waiting lists. I know my roots, which is something I appreciate for no real reason, it's like having an artifact. But I have no desire to reclaim Poland, Germany and Czeckoslovakia in no particular order. I am here.

And what if I had to leave here ? What good would it do me to come back even mere decades later ?

And in that, I now pose the question ; Do we own the land or does the land own us ?

That is a whole nother issue. If you own a car, you get "I need gas, oil, washer fluid, waxed and polished". If you own a cat you get "I need food, water, maybe milk, belly rubs, human blood (at least my cats) and half of your bed". The fact is really, if you own something it owns you.

Thank you for not turning this into a knockout dragdown fight to the death.

T^T



kdsub -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/4/2011 1:50:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
This world is very complicated and we as individuals can not experience life in every society so who are we to be the absolute judge.


Butch


but we are arent we?

worse we justify conquering whole countries just to show them how right we are and how wrong they are!



We can only go by our upbringing to judge what is right or wrong. I’m just saying a view point by another culture may not be a lie in comparison to our own…but it still may be right or wrong.

Otherwise there are cultures that need to change…there are basic human rights that must be respected. How we go about changing these cultures is another matter.

Butch



tweakabelle -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/4/2011 3:02:16 PM)

quote:

Do we judge a people by the actions of their government ?


Of course we can't. But to claim that political criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic is to allege precisely we are making political criticisms of a Govt, its actions and policies solely because of alleged hatred of its people. Any possibility of Israeli culpability is eliminated. Expressed like that it sounds as shallow and self serving as it is.

Revealingly, this argument is only advanced in relation to Israel. No one would take seriously the claim that eg. anti-UK or anti-Italian political criticism is racist in character. Everywhere else, it seems, political criticism is political criticism. This is the double standard that lies at the heart of this issue. Israel gets singled out for special treatment.

Double standards are the foundation on which all racism is founded. Without them, racism cannot exist. Go figure.



MrRodgers -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/4/2011 4:11:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Do we judge a people by the actions of their government ?

Thank you for not turning this into a knockout dragdown fight to the death.

T^T

The questions you ask cannot be so simplified. As for this one, no, except in the most egregious cases like the Axis in WWII and maybe a few others when the citizenry truly got behind the govt. in their aggression and in building empire. The problem with assessing Islam is that they are theocracies and the theocrats are properly blamed for Islams problems and their people are predominantly victims, say like...the Palestinians. Only in democracies could you even make case for a culpable citizenry and even that is specious.

As for the OP on antisemitism we must define it first. Semites are all Arabs, Jews plus a few more. All Semites are the sons of Abraham circa 2100 BC. As anti-Semitism, it now relates specifically to the Jews and it is because they have been history's handy scapegoat for the belligerent autocracies that theocracies were who often blamed the Hebrews for all of the problems they caused or nature caused throughout history. It's the fault of the Jews they said. Since 79 AD, when Jerusalem was sacked for the last time before 1947, for the Jews (Hebrews, Israelites) history has accommodated, blaming the them for drought, crime even the plague.

It hasn't changed in the 21st century. Islam is still out to destroy Israel yet again and the Jews are blamed for genocide by merely protecting itself. I think if the Jews had formed empire and had a home for 2000 years, there wouldn't be anywhere near the antisemitism we see today, if any that wasn't directed at all of the middle eastern tribes.



Aneirin -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/4/2011 4:50:28 PM)

What gets me in all this bullshit that effects most of the world and those who live in it, is, it is just three religions centred on the same source, Islam, Judaism and Christianity, the biblical three that it seems hold the world  at unease.

Myself being outside of those biblical three, I often wonder why those three  are the pain in the ass to the rest of us who try to get on with our lives without those and their part time adherance to past heresay, which only seems to come in when it suits the situation.



Edwynn -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/4/2011 7:34:40 PM)



Nothing screams louder to the world as "I am only here to take your money, but please respect my own cultural and religious understanding when I turn away from you quickly after transaction" than to wear the religion in public via the skull caps, the black dresses, etc.

I don't care what you grew up with, you have to figure it out sometime.


I grew up as Catholic, and I ascribe some portion of my inclination to move far afield thereby.


If the Mohamadenists or the Jews or the Protestants take forever to figure it out, I have some modicum of patience, but not that much.


Close that stupid book, take that stupid hat off, and move forward.



Termyn8or -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/4/2011 8:21:36 PM)

FR

It is obvious that Jews consider themselves separate from other Semites.

Of what is that a definition ? A SEPARATIST.

T^T



Moonhead -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/5/2011 4:41:32 AM)

I think you have that backwards: it's more the Moslems talking about how God wants them to kill all of the Jews. Is taking a separatist line in the face of that really reprehensible?



tweakabelle -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/5/2011 4:59:42 AM)

I don't know if we have reached a point yet where we all agree on why anti-Semitism exists, or, for that matter, why any religious and/or ethnic hatred exists. But if people have reached that point in their own heads, then the next question is:

How do we rid ourselves of these pointless destructive hatreds, both as individuals and cultures?

What can be done to help bring that about? Equally, what should be avoided?

If it's not a hijack, I'd love to hear people's answers and ideas around those questions. Or should this be another thread?




Edwynn -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/5/2011 11:15:31 PM)



Here's a question.

If a particular religion-based or ethnic-based group has had such bad experience as to prior experience, via persecution and whatnot, whence the insistence on persistent provocation further?

Christians learned to shut up about it through harsh experience and many wars.


The Jews and the Islamists are just getting started, even having been at it for centuries, and it's obvious that they are incapable of moving beyond.

It's just not in the genes.


What are these people trying to tell me, as they insist on pushing their garb into my face upon every visit to the grocery store, both customers and cashiers with the caps on.

I am glad that they are proud of their heritage, and I say that honestly, but they cannot see what an imposition it is upon those with other upbringings, other sensibilities, etc.

I don't give a crap about people who obviously don't give a crap about the sensibilities of others, end of story.






Termyn8or -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/6/2011 12:32:12 AM)

"How do we rid ourselves of these pointless destructive hatreds, both as individuals and cultures? "

The question of the hour, at least. We percieve the actions of a nation as the desire of the people. Well maybe I don't, but most do. The actions of nations are the actions of governments.

During the cold war you look for Russians. During the war on terror you look for Arabs, during the second world war you look for Japanese.

I can tell you this much unequivocably - none of those people fighting the war wanted it. Neither did we. The governments want war. People would just rather live their lives for the most part, save for a few mercenary types, and they were spawned by military indoctrination.

We don't need all this shit. Did any war ever do us any good ? Now the semi-official story is that all this shit in the middle east in about oil. Well it has not gone down in price. How much worse off would we be if we had friendly relations with those nations and didn't have the tax burden of maing ready for war all the time ? How much worse off would we be ? Really.

But people don't rule, money rules. Until that is solved nothing will get solved. Period.

T^T



Termyn8or -> RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm sick of the bickering (3/6/2011 12:36:13 AM)

"The Jews and the Islamists are just getting started, even having been at it for centuries, and it's obvious that they are incapable of moving beyond. "

And what is the definition of Jews and Islamists ?

T^T



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