Developing Non-Judgemental Attitudes (Full Version)

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Destinysskeins -> Developing Non-Judgemental Attitudes (10/6/2004 12:13:15 PM)

Greetings,

This topic was born in my mind after viewing instances of judgemental attitudes and prejudice on other threads in addition to viewing others in my real life making rash judgements about others based upon very little criteria. This might not be a very worthwhile topic for those of you who have decided to introduce your children to the Lifestyle from Day 1 (or nearly so) nor might it be worthwhile for those in live in larger cities where unusual sites are commonplace.

During my formative years growing up i heard a great many number of disparaging comments about others' dress, conduct, lifestyle, etc. from my parents (most notably my zealous mother). Looking back i'm really not certain how i became the accepting person that i am now (i'm guessing it's due to the emergence of my own kink which made me more accepting of others). These comments might range from 'so & so runs with that crowd of people' to include snide remarks about others choice of attire.

My first question is....

In participating in these sorts of activities with our children, are we not teaching them to be judgemental of others? Are we not reinforcing the 'Gap Lifestyle' (in that everyone must behave, dress and speak uniformly, or nearly so)?

My second question is...

How do we fight these misconceptions? How do we teach our children to be accepting of others thoughts, behaviors, dress, etc? Once again, children in homes where the Lifestyle are actively lead most likely won't apply to this - i'm speaking moreso to the parents who participate more in a explanation by degree sort of philosophy with their young.

Personally, for me i find i have my own little battles to fight with this. First, i live in a small burp in the road in northern Indiana. Not exactly the hub of kink or unusual activity. This being said, i do not wish for my children to grown up so shielded to such things that they are shocked to their core when they do encounter such behaviours. i want them to be able to assimilate these occurrences quickly and in a compassionate manner. In order to fulfill this wish i strive to take all the little opportunities i can to strengthen this. For example, i might flip through the channels and find a with a man dressed in drag - i might decide to hold the channel on for a bit and see how the children react to it. i then might explain to them that some people like to dress in much different ways than we do. Or for another example, the children & i might be accompanying my parents for some outing or the other during which my mother will invariably make one of her rash comments about someone else to which i'll respond in a jokingly, but jabbing manner with the underlying meaning of '*shrugs* wouldn't be my choice but it seems to be working for them'. i do this so that my children will see the difference in reactions and hopefully choose to become adults who practice a non-judgemental attitude.




Nvernilla -> RE: Developing Non-Judgemental Attitudes (10/6/2004 2:16:33 PM)

Some very good points here and we share many viewpoints, if everyone in the world would practice non-judgmentalness it would be a much better world. I feel that it is a very big thing for children to comprehend even sex without knowing all the kinks too. There are many other types of things they can learn a non-judgmental attitude from too though. In the end it is totally your call . The thing you do with the TV is really cool though they are picking up far more from the TV than we would like to admit I feel....Mike




newflowers -> RE: Developing Non-Judgemental Attitudes (10/6/2004 3:50:50 PM)

Destiny -

Living where you do, I think it is much more difficult to teach non-judgemental attitudes to your children. Good luck and you seem to be well on the road. Even here in Los Angeles County where can and will enconter any and everything, the lessons are just as important. Like you, when we see something different, I stress to my children that it is DIFFERENT not weird and I teach to to avoid using value words when refering to others. I stress the fact that words have power - the "sticks and stones deal" is not true - words can hurt.

Teaching tolerance is one thing, teaching acceptance goes beyond that and is a much more difficult lesson.

newflowers




Estring -> RE: Developing Non-Judgemental Attitudes (10/6/2004 3:58:45 PM)

So is there anything that you would teach your kids is wrong? It sounds to me like you are teaching them that all choices are equally as good. I don't think that is what children need to learn. There is a difference in tolerating something and accepting it as equally as good as anything else. To me that is why standards have pretty much disappeared, and moral relativism is rampant.
And who really believes that people in this lifestyle are less judgemental than other people? I certainly haven't seen it.




newflowers -> RE: Developing Non-Judgemental Attitudes (10/6/2004 4:26:50 PM)

Teaching children tolerance and acceptance does not mean one does not teach children to make appropriate moral choices.

Moral relativism - interesting as it seems to me than there is a significant number of people who would think that participation in this lifestyle and the reaons we may give for it is moral relativism. People are judgemental because, by and large, we use our own measure of what should and should not.

Societal norms and mores are often situational and geographical. Certainly there are actions and the lack thereof that may be comdemned - murder, rape, theft, and other ten commandment things - being tolerant and accepting of others' differences and teaching the same to our children is not the same as condoning or encouraging participation in that behavior.

newflowers




WayHome -> RE: Developing Non-Judgemental Attitudes (10/6/2004 5:27:02 PM)

I fail to see the connection between learning to accept superficial differences and failing to learn moral values.

Teaching your children to accept other people's fashion choices is not the same as teaching them to accept rape and murder. It would be nice if more people could learn not to equate one with the other.


Leto




Redmage -> RE: Developing Non-Judgemental Attitudes (10/6/2004 8:07:41 PM)

It seems to me that the critical questions to ask oneself when deciding whether or not to exercise tolerance are:

1) Is that behavior hurting me? (And I don't mean, is it offending my aesthetic sense? I mean, is it causing me harm?)
2) Is that behavior causing harm to anyone else, except possibly the person doing it?

If the answer to either question is "Yes", then you have some right to take action to stop the behavior in question - though if it's only harming someone else, you'll do well to check with that person before acting on their behalf.

If the answer to both questions is "No", then live with it. It's not your business to interfere.

To me, that's what tolerance is all about: learning to let pass behaviors that cause us no harm.




dixiedumpling -> RE: Developing Non-Judgemental Attitudes (10/6/2004 9:16:07 PM)

I read an article recently about a college class that was studying the Holocaust. They had been so ingrained into having "open minds" and being "nonjudgemental" that they felt they couldn't say Hitler was wrong. That's the problem with telling your children that all choices are correct.. for someone. This is an extreme example, I know. But it does show that some sort of moral compass has to be taught. It's not inborn.




newflowers -> RE: Developing Non-Judgemental Attitudes (10/6/2004 10:23:33 PM)

I would agree that moral choices are taught and not inborn; however, Hilter's actions were not the same as teaching acceptance of actions/behaviors/choices that cause no harm. For example, for most of their childhood, we lived in an area that has a very high homosexual population. Neighbors, friends, even a teacher or two - My children have learned that homosexuality may be different than what some people may consider "normal" but men and women who are homosexual are deserving of the same rights and freedoms as everyone else. To discriminate against them is the same as racism - bigotry is bigotry. Denying the civil freedoms of one group hurts all groups and damages the foundation of society in general.

This is not at all the same thing as accepting murder and genocide and those who would practice it. It is not a matter of teaching children that ALL choices are acceptable and to be tolerant of them. Nor was that the point of the original post. Of course there are some choices/behaviors/actions that are wrong, morally wrong, morally reprehensible. I do believe that we have a moral obligation to speak and act against such things. However, those things are not the same as teaching children or even oneself to be tolerant and accepting of others who are different.

newflowers




Destinysskeins -> RE: Developing Non-Judgemental Attitudes (10/7/2004 7:36:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

So is there anything that you would teach your kids is wrong? It sounds to me like you are teaching them that all choices are equally as good. I don't think that is what children need to learn. There is a difference in tolerating something and accepting it as equally as good as anything else. To me that is why standards have pretty much disappeared, and moral relativism is rampant.
And who really believes that people in this lifestyle are less judgemental than other people? I certainly haven't seen it.


*smiles* Actually, i very much agree with You and thought about placing a portion in the post about how difficult it is to balance teaching acceptance and ensuring a strong moral character at the same time. i ended up deciding not to since i was certain that it was bound to come up in a response anyways. That's most likely the hardest thing for me during this whole process - i want my children to be accepting of others' benevolent choices but also to understand right from wrong. Thus far, i've found that the two lessons usually occur at different opportunities. While i might choose to highlight an unusual (but benevolent) choice in order to illustrate the kaleidoscope of lifestyles in the world, i'll generally chose a different tack for lessons in morality.

For example, when my oldest son was about 2.5 yrs old my ex-hubby and i took him on a trip to Wal-Mart. Upon leaving the store and walking to the car i noticed that he was holding a battery operated lantern in one hand - which i had not purchased. i promptly directed the ex to take the cart and my youngest son to the car while the eldest and i went back into the store to remedy the situation. Now, at this point i've no doubt that my son did not realize that he was stealing at the time that he had taken the lantern. My plan was to make damned sure that he did by the time we got home. i grabbed up his hand, all the while telling him about how taking things that you did not pay for and which did not belong to you was stealing and that when we went back into the store he was going to apologize for stealing and return the lantern. Following this, i escorted him back to the car and informed him that he would not be receiving any of the toys that i had purchased for him until tomorrow as additional punishment for talking the lantern.

Now, to some people all of that might seem pretty harsh and truth be told i hated watching him become upset over this but i felt that it was necessary. i wanted the experience to be very memorable to him - so much so that should he think about stealing in his older years he might hopefully experience a conditioned response in reaction to this previous experience and decide against such a course of action.

As for people in the lifestyle being less judgemental - *shrugs* the way i see it people are people no matter what corner of the world you're in and you're going to have the good ones and the bad ones all mixed together. It's not my place to reform such others but it is my place to teach my children to be the best possible people that i can.




NoCalOwner -> RE: Developing Non-Judgemental Attitudes (10/7/2004 1:34:42 PM)

I started an answer to your original post before anyone else had replied, but ran into exactly what has happened in this thread: you can't teach something like that in a vaccuum. So I ended up writing a protracted rant, starting with the suggestion that you'd have to teach them ethics, logic/critical thinking, and a little sociology. I wish I could come up with some shortcuts, but I'm afraid I can't. We're surrounded by people and things which are constantly trying to inform us, misinform us, or disinform us. Whether it's slanted and dubious statements from your mom, the TV, or their friends, the problem will always be the same: seeing through BS.

Good parenting is a ton of work, but I can't think of anything more worthwhile.




srahfox -> RE: Developing Non-Judgemental Attitudes (10/21/2004 11:12:45 AM)

I do believe you can teach your children how to be nojudgemental and still teach them the differance between right and wrong. Here's an interesting question. I heard it in a movie once and it just stuck with me.
If you could go back in time and met Hitler before he ever did anything wrong. When he was still just an aspiring artist. Would you kill him? The first thing most everyone wants to say is.. hell yes! It's Hitler. But does that make it right to kill him, even thou you know what he will do? The answer in the movie that blew me away (And it was from the 'bad' guy) was "No, I would talk to him, try to change his views"
Hard question isn't it?




blushes4u -> RE: Developing Non-Judgemental Attitudes (10/21/2004 1:26:21 PM)

Ok my 2 cents again ....rather an example of how i look at things. My daughter is handicapped, she as well as myself get looks of disgust as well as compassion. I try to teach my daughter not to judge them for how they react but rather show them that you are no different then anyone else when it comes to eating, sleeping and breathing: You do them too! You may not do things like they do, you may not like doing things they do, but you can't hate them because they are different.




GoddessDustyGold -> RE: Developing Non-Judgemental Attitudes (10/21/2004 2:49:32 PM)

I do My best to be non-judgemental, and I do feel I am reasonanbly tolerant. But I would hope W/we all agree that certain things are not acceptable in this lifestyle and in the vanilla world. There is a difference between right and wrong. If consensual adults agree to a BDSM relationship that is one thing. I am not going to be tolerant of the guy across the street who gets bombed every night and then beats the sh*t out of his wife. I am not going to be tolerant of the rapists and pedophiles, the murderers, the convenience store hold-ups, the carjackers.
Interesting...because I would have tried to sway Hitler's views Myself, if I knew of them. This such an extreme example, but a good one. If the difference is so intrinsic to My moral and ethical beliefs, then I would have to question if this person could or should remain My friend. For example, I make clear that I will not deal with people who are dependant on alcohol or drugs. I have friends who are, and I will try to help them when I can, but if they don't want the help, there is nothing Ican do, and it will, in fact, change My relationship and how much time W/we spend together. It is your right to say you don't want to be My sub/slave because I smoke. But it is My home. I respect the rules, laws and preferences of others when I am not in My home. But there are too many people out there who are very narrow minded about everything from "the only right way to have sex is in the missionary position" to "vote My way or don't vote". At least in this country, ( as of this writing! LOL) W/we can agree to disagree.
I tried to raise My kids with the idea that certain things such as a friend coming out of the closet, for instance, or someone who is disabled, or...yadda, are ok and they need support and love. And I believe I succeeded. But I am not going to deliberately lead them to a knowledge of this lifestyle and/or kink. I am discreet, and I feel this is a private matter. There is plenty out there for them to read and figure out regarding their own sexuality. They know I love them and always, always want them to be safe. I also raised them to be open with Me about things, so I now have to trust that they can make reasonable decisions on their own, and if they have questions they can come to Me. It is a matter of constant discussion about the everyday vanilla things you see on the news or read in the paper, or the personal experiences they are having at school. This is where the groundwork is laid. Each individual parent has to decide how to lay it. I don't think exposing them to BDSM is or was a necessary part of that, for Me.
I am still a parent, (it never really goes away) but they are on their own now. Being a parent is the hardest job I have ever had in My life. It was worth it.




srahfox -> RE: Developing Non-Judgemental Attitudes (10/21/2004 2:59:16 PM)

It's funny because when I saw the movie I thought. Well, hitler yeah. Then the "Bad" guy said he would talk to him, try to change his mind. That changed everything. Yes Hitler was evil and messed up, but that doesn't nessassarily give you the right to kill the man before he does anything. But then again if you killed him, How many people would you save. Ahh.. Almost makes your head hurt thinking about it. More so because i'm one of those wierdos who won't kill (Or allow to be killed in my house) spiders or anything and instead takes them outside.




susannah -> RE: Developing Non-Judgemental Attitudes (10/21/2004 3:35:09 PM)

**I remember learning a lot from actually watching how one (or both) of my parents actually acted toward other people in situations with other people, where I thought they acted "above and beyond" what some people might consider the "norm", or the "call of duty."

**I love that movie "To Kill A Mockingbird" - it's my favorite, and I think the main character in it, Atticus Finch, is a great example of social courage in a general sense. And I think what it has to say can "carry over" to a lot of other examples, too.

**For instance: One of my parents' friends "came out of the closet" during this meeting of a some social or book club they belonged to in 1983, I remember. Some of the other couples in this group shunned this guy (he had been their friend for years, btw. This kind of thing makes me nuts)! My parents always liked this person, and they stayed good friends with him and they kept going out for dinner all the time with eachother after that. This club was full of pretty conservative, "traditional" folk, and they are notparticularly "rebellious liberals" (they just acted like human beings). I was so proud of my parents for that.

**Then one time, in 1969 I remember, the woman next door neighbor wanted to stop a black couple from buying the house on the block we lived on, and was passing around this petition in the neghborhood, and my father was the only person who simply would Not sign it (my mother wasn't home at the time, but she would not have, either, I just know it). This woman with the petition's husband was a minister (but what's new...). I was so imprssed with my father, it really stuck with me.

**Then I remember my mom was working in a nursing home, around 1980, and there was this 13 year old boy who was living there (in an old folks home). He was paralyzed from the neck down - his name was Christopher. This kid had been in five different foster homes, and in every single one of them, the foster "parents" had physicially abused him (pretty badly) and their excuse was that he was "hard to care for" (well, he was as quiet as a church mouse, and thanks to them, as meek as one, too). Maybe he required some care. These foster parents volunteered for the job and got paid for it, too. They just wanted the monthly check for "caring" for him. They ran out of patience, and I guess when it became too much trouble to change a bed pan - they burned him with cigarettes on his arms, his back and one of his beloved foster "dads" tried to break the bones in his legs. Nebraska child welfare finally decided (they can be a bit "slow on the uptake, don't get me started). Anyway, after two years of being tossed around like a football, I guess they finally decided that the safest place for Chrisopher was the nursing home where my mom happened to be working (and it was safer. And she was working there. She was a very determined woman. Mere coincidence? Hmmm. I like to think not.

The only thing Christopher wanted in the entire world, in his 13-year old life, while surrounded by 80-year olds in the nursing hime (and nobody his own age), was to be a Boy Scout. He was so bored laying there, strapped to his wheel-chair, with nothing (nothing) to do. Not his choice - other people had "things to do" I guess.

My mother made some phone calls to a few, but not many Boy Scout troop leaders wanted to hold scout meetings at the nursing home, or drive there to pick him up and take him to ther meetings (even if they were "polite" about declining). My mother would not stop looking for one. She was a very determined woman. She called over 40 Boy Scout troop leaders - finally, she talked one into having their troop meetings at the nrusing home, so Christopher could be a Boy Scout (I am sure those scouts learned something from that. They were very nice to and enjoyed Christopher, and Christopher finally had not only something to do besides stare at the wall in that decrepit nursing home, but mostly, he found out someone really did give a damn about him.

**Then I remember this one time when I was five, (it was 1963) my mother took me shopping with her, and I sat down at the shop's lunch counter to have ice cream (she was about 5 feet away, looking for fabric, but she could watch me from there). The lunch counter was segregated, but I didn't know it because I couldn't read yet. The waitress kept saying "you can't sit in this section" (it was the section for blacks). I thought she just didn't like children, and she would not wait on me, because I was in the "wrong section" - even though it was the only empty seat. My mother looked up and figured out what was happening, walked over really fast, said really loud "We're leaving, this is just ridiculous!" and on the way to the car I asked her what was wrong. She just said ranted about how some people, even in 1963, were still pretty ignorant, and she was not going to eat in a place that still seperated black people from white people, because it was wrong. I was only 5 but - those are the things I remember about my parents the most, more than ANYthing else, and it's forty years later.

**I was just so impressed with them when I think about it, I could burst. I watched what they did. They knew how to treat other people in sometimes "trying" circumstances. That really stuck with me.***Those are the things I remember the most.

I don't have children of my own, and even though my sisters and I grew up in the same house, with the same parents, we have very different views on what's "tolerable" as far as "lifestyles". I think this because I think some sexually alternative "life-styles" might be genetically determined at birth, and attaching the idea something is "evil" or wrong to it is way off base. I am not referring here of course, to pedophiles, or other criminals. (and I do believe in the concept of "evil," and I believe it exists). My sister (one of them) is an attorney and is (I think) kind of jaded with clients not taking responsibility for their own messes (I'm sure it gets frustrating). She can be a lot of fun, I love her, and she's my sister, but I can't really remember ever being much like that (really pre-judgmental). We've been different since we were small kids that way. And actually, in her profession, it maybe helps her win cases to act absolutely "certain" about some things (but I still don't think the sexuality area is one of those things, because of course she doesn't "know", she's just opinionated, but she really really thinks she "knows"). Okay (but it can be tiring). And, if we "debate" about her views, I find sometimes they are apropos of nothing. We have been around that block (the tolerance vs. pre-judging some people with "alternative life-styles" without knowing them block) so often I now avoid it like the plague (and we also can't have fun together if we're on topics we adamantly disagree about). We've never discussed D/s or bdsm; there's no reason for me to discuss it with her (it's not a topic that would probably come up between us).

I have no idea where this difference in our attitudes came from (although when I think about it, I realized my sister is a LOT like my mother. I'm a lot more like my dad, even though I'm a girl, and he's more tolerant).

I think people make their own life-style choices, but I think maybe they are pre-disposed in a particular direction due to biology. And I think that unless they are a budding serial killer, or a pedophile, or doing otherwise illegal activities like drug-trafficking, that it's unkind to make judgmental comments about people who some might view as "different" (pick any category here). Not only that, I don't think it pays off much of the time if one is trying to change their viewpoint. I'd try to help someone of they had an alcohol abuse problem, too, by introducing them to 12-step meetings, and/or a rehab center (I have).

I think my sister (sort of "unconciously, maybe) attaches moral implications to behavior I think has no moral implications. I always know if I want to get her going in debate mode, I can say something like: "I say we legalize gay marriage this year! I can't believe it's even an issue, it's ridiculous". She knows what I think - and I know what she thinks, and her views are probably not going to change (she's entitled to her opinion. Me trying to change any is clearly a "no go". Sorry - maybe this did turn into a "rant").

But - I am glad that I still manage to pull my nephew (her son) aside if I see these kinds of opinions bandied about a lot at some family dinner, to mention to him that adults sometimes have opinions they haven't thought through, too - and not to believe everything he hears. I maybe shouldn't do that (he's not my son), but I think some of the things he hears from adults are _ullshi_. My sister knows what and when I tell him, and she's usually okay with it (she can be moody, though, if she's in a bad mood, watch out).

I think it's wrong to expose a child to any behavior or print or video material that has a sexual connotation (just like I wouldn't want to have had to watch my parents having "vanilla sex", at, say, age 8 or 10, or heck any age). Especially a child under 12. I know they'll see some on tv, etc. anyway, I mean introducing them to it. I have no formal background in child psych, but that's the "magic number" they gave us where I volunteer w/abused kids for even attempting to answer any question they might have about "the birds and the bees" (which we then refer to a paid staff counselor anyway). I know I started asking questions at about age 8 about sex, so it varies by child (and 12 is probably way too old, but those are the "rules" where I volunteer). I remember my mom giving my sisters and I a book to read explaining some "facts of life" when we were about 8, and later, in Jr. high, she gave us the book, Dr. Theodore Rubin's book "Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Sex, But Were Afriad To Ask", which we all read (she seemed embarrassed to give us the book, but to her credit did it anyway. My dad didn't want to talk about it, it was considered "her area", and since we're females and so is she, that makes sense to me. I have no brothers).

If a child I knew asked a question about D/s or bdsm, I suppose I'd try to make sure I knew why they were asking - I'd want to make sure nobody was sexually harassing them, which I'd do, too, if they brought up a sexual topic in general. Sometimes I guess there's a deeper reason for the questions, and sometimes they're just curious. But if they were under 10, I doubt I'd say anything other than a general statement like: "Some people enjoy that kind of activity", and make sure to mention that responsible people are SSC. If they pressed for more info, or if they were older (like Junior high) and had any kind of sexual topic question, (including bdsm or D/s related), I guess I'd send them to the library or have 'em research it on the internet, and maybe ask them to let you know what they learned, (but if on a computer and they were researching a sex topic in particular, I'd make sure I knew who they were talking to).

I don't have kids living with me, so I don't have much day-to-day experience here, but if a child over about 10 (or maybe a bit younger, I think it depends on the child) asked me, I think I'd just say something general, like: "Some people like these things" (which they are going to find out anyway, probably, somewhere along the line - in movies or books. I could be wrong, but I guess it depends on the child and how inquisitive they are. I guess I'd answer any question, but I'd make the answer as "age approporiate" as I could -I'd probably keep my answer short and sweet.
With little kids, (8 or younger? I think there is is not much wrong with saying "that's private" (between oneself and one's partner). No offense to anyone who believes otherwise is intended (and I hope none is taken).

I guess if bdsm or D/s became a topic of conversation with myself and a kid over 10 or 12, I would really really emphasize that anyone responsible who participates in this kind of activity also believes in and practices SSC and/or RACK. I would answer any question, but no way would I ever introduce any kid under 18 to any alternative (or "regular") sexual or bdsm activity - it would just never happen. I guess I've usually ended up opting for general statements that emphasize tolerance for people some construe as "different", and that's "just me".

I got into a "debate" with my sister a few years ago when one afternoon her son (who was 7 at the time) started coming home from school saying "that's so gay" (slang, but pretty derogatory slang). I mentioned to my nephew that people are born the way they are, and treating people as one wants to be treated includes everyone, including people who are gay.

My sister got irritated because "he's only seven" and she thought we shouldn't be discussing the topic. He brought it up, but he is her child, not mine. On the other hand, he's pretty sharp for a seven year old, and I thought he could handle hearing what I said. I also suspected (I knew) that my sister had a bit of what I considered ignorant predjudice going on. So - we had a (futile) "debate". I said people are born what they are, and (I think) it's mostly genetic, and what difference does it make to her personally anyway, etc.? I said something about intolerant attitudes breeding another generation of ignorance, and then apologized because I just wanted it to stop because she hasn't changed her views in her entire life and it just seemed like such a waste of time, and I didn't want the afternoon to be ruined. You can lead a horse to water...
- susannah




srahfox -> RE: Developing Non-Judgemental Attitudes (10/21/2004 4:44:36 PM)

while I agree that he's not your child I couldn't say that what you're doing is wrong. The child does deserve to see more than one side of the coin. I do believe a lot of what we do and believe in live is preset. My sisters and I are close, but in a lot of ways we grew up different. I was abused and they were not. I lived a more or less 'normal' life for a little while before my mom started drinking. I was away alot to friends houses. However, my youngest sister and I have ALOT of the same settings. Even though we are the ones who should have the lest in common. We are both Bi. (She knew about it, but I never talked about it with her) We have the same taste in women. We have the same believes. (Also something I never talked to her about) But then she is also codependant. And while I like to help people I am not. Our middle sister is much more judgemental. She's really not much on the whole gay/bi thing. She thinks it's okay for me, but no one else. I'm her favorite. But all of us are artist, and mom is not.




susannah -> RE: Developing Non-Judgemental Attitudes (10/21/2004 5:46:34 PM)

I always liked that saying:"You can either be a good example or a horrible warning", (I know I've probably been both in my lifetime).

(To other people, and I think that probably applies as far as being tolerant or intolerant). I know everybody has a right to their opinion, and someone once told me that people are the sum total of their experiences (and I think of their biological pre-dispositions as well, when it comes to being gay, or straight, or bi-sexual, or wanting to transgender, and maybe in some cases when it comes to wanting to do bdsm or having a D/s inclination on either side of the coin). But I like to remember that I don't always have to agree with their opinion (I don't have to argue, either, and I usually don't, unless I think some big prinicple is at stake, because with some people it can be (for me) just too wearing. I do think children 'learn what they live" (corny but true). I think there are folks who have been raised by pretty brutal people (who amazingly manage to exude a fair or rather large amount of empathy despite that - it's amazing. Who knows why this occurs? I sure don't, but I think it's interesting to ponder. I've read men are naturally more "logical" and women more "empathic". I used to think that was BS, but am starting to wonder. I think both are definitely equally valuable.

Maybe I'm getting old, and I live in Nebraska, too, which is an arch-Republican conservative state in many ways, but sometimes it's not worth the trouble, it seems. For example: My next door neighbors are two Lesbian college professors, and the retired military colonel across the street despises them with a passion, just because they're gay and (as far as I can tell) for no other reason. Watching them interact is both painful and comical at the same time (fortunately, they don't take his attitude seriously. They are the nicest women (heck, one of them always snow-blows the neighbors' sidewalks, just to be nice, in the Winter). Am I going to change this guy? Probably not. he spent years becoming the way he is (doesn't mean I can't say "Oh for heaven's sake, Donald! Get a grip!)..or something similar (and I have).

Maybe I am getting old, but I found it saves me a lot of time if someone is being what I consider really pointy-headed, that saying absolutely nothing is a good response. Other times, (except not with this person across the street, because I disagree w/how he treats those neighbors) I just nod my head and say "you may be right about that" (because maybe they could be).This may not close the gap, but at least I like to think if I remember it when the opportunity arises, that I'm doing my little part. - susannah




susannah -> RE: Developing Non-Judgemental Attitudes (10/21/2004 6:15:57 PM)

Thanks, I appreciate that. I think so, too. He's a sharp kid, and I think he questions a lot of things he hears (which I think is a good thing) My sister and I do get along okay, and she's got a lot of what I consider really nice qualities, but my mom said when she was little she was "the baby that screamed the loudest" (I believe it, maybe she was practicing up for the courtroom)? I have learned to avoid certain topics around her - save a lot of time and woe.

My littlest sister (the nurse) and I are much more alike. I was not sexually abused, but I have two friends who were, and they have spent years trying to come to terms with it (and I must say, I think are doing a terrific job of it. To this day one of my friends' brothers still won't admit he abused her from age 9-15. I told her he is lucky she is even speaking to him, because she still feels a bit "guilty" at times about it (what's up with that?!). There was a lot of emotional tension in my house when I was younger (I think my parents got married way too young, but in the 50s, I think women married when they were 19 or 20). But at my house there was nothing near as serious as what I know is out there in many places

I read this book that said people choose the "path" their soul will take before they "incarnate" (are born into a human body), and that only the really brave ones get the really challenging lives, because they want to "advance their soul" more quickly, and that nobody wants to come to the planet Earth and incarnate, because it's just too damn hard, but that almost every soul does it at least once, because otherwise their soul never advances (try talking to someone in my family about THAT, ha! I was raised a hard-core Catholic, my mother believed it is "the one true faith" until the day she died. If that is what gives her comfort, I think it's of course her choice what to believe. But we could never discuss any "alternative faith" without arguing (because she felt her beliefs were threatened). My dad would just chuckle (he thought questions of any kind were great, which was a relief to me).Don't tell just anyone you believe in UFO's or souls with no bodies, or they may come and get you with a net (I am just joking, but some people jump to the conclusion one is an automatic "flake" if you think about topic X, Y or Z. Oh well. I think it can be fun to speculate, and does anybody really know the "answer"? No).

I read this one theory in a book one time that said that the oldest child is (personality-wise) like the father (regardless of gender), and the second child is like the mother, and the third is a combo, and the fourth is a "peace-maker" type of personality that wants everyone to get along, and then the cycle starts over and the fifth child is like the father, the sixth like the mom, and so on - (this is taking for granted that there is a mother and a father in the house, which means whoever wrote it made it not apply to a good portion of the population). But maybe it's true- anyway I think sometimes this stuff can be interesting to read. I am the oldest and I am more like my dad - who knows? - susannah




srahfox -> RE: Developing Non-Judgemental Attitudes (10/22/2004 8:56:51 AM)

That's a really interesting thought accually. I am like my father in many ways but it's so had to tell because first my mom kept him from us, and then when I made that important step and wrote him to say I wasn't going to pretend nothing happened but I still wanted him in my life (I know, I can't explain it. He hurt me and my whole view of life for so long, but he's still my dad) He wrote back and said he was moving would tell me when he got there and oh yeah.. he didn't remember anything ever happening. Then I never heard from him again and he just died. It's sad, but nothing can change it. My sister after me is accually a good blend of every one. My youngest sister is JUST like my mom. It's funny to think about the predeturminded thing because my youngest sister and I are both bi and everytime the three of us get together we wonder how long it will take our mom to come out of the closet.
My mom taught us (Yes even while drunk, she was a good parent despite that) no to judge people for their color or beliefs. that's not to say she wasn't a little upset when Heidi and I (The youngest) told her we were both not christian.
I wonder sometimes about the idea of us choosing our life lessons before we were born. Because I can honestly say that while I hope no child ever has to go threw what I did, I can't completely say I wish it has never happened. Because for the most part I love who I am and wouldn't change it for anything. Without my past I would not be who I am. I just hope my lesson isn't how to live with a horribly strong maternal instinct and never be able to have children. That would suck!




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