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DOJ running guns to Mexico? - 3/4/2011 1:53:56 PM

truckinslave

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I have followed this story for some few hours, traced it through several sites, looking diligently for some hint that it was a scam, an Onion piece. It's imo pretty well unbelievable.

DOJ/ATF have deliberately ignored the law and the criminals breaking it. They lied about having done so. They threatened agents who resisted the operation in question. They have purposefully, illegally, allowed firearms to be smuggled into Mexico; one of those firearms has killed a federal agent. The firearms illegally sold/smuggled to the cartels include according to some sources "a number" or "several Barrett .50 cal rifles. I have personally spoken to a Marine sniper who said that it was routine successfully to engage a 30" target at 1,000 yards with the first shot from a cold barrel. It's the gun used by Mark Wahlberg in the opening scene of "Shooter"

The main use the cartels would have for such a weapon is to place them on Az moutaintops so that the spotters they are known to have there already can themselves become snipers.

This one isn't going away, libtards. An American agent is dead. Holder, the head of ATF, the originator of this absurdly dangerous scheme, and anyone else responsible for its implementation, should be impeached/fired forthwith, prosecuted at leisure and great expense (to them), and drawn and quartered as the law sees fit.

It's pretty ironic that a day or two ago I posted how utterly stupid it is to think that it's easier to "get guns out of the hands of drug dealers" than the guns themselves. Yet this seems to be the exact thinking of the 0bama0 administration. (See note/PS)

Here's but one link to get you started: It's a CBS story, shockingly enough. Guns into Mexico.

Note/PS: it's only the timing of the post that's ironic. That the 0bama0 is this stupid is neither ironic nor surprising.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

Post #: 1

RE: DOJ running guns to Mexico? - 3/4/2011 1:59:15 PM

mnottertail

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I would almost agree with you to some extent, that somebodies head will roll, (won't be Holders, it's just a few rogue atf agents at the bottom of the pork barrel) but having seen your past work efforts in law and political trends and outcomes and found it wanting forbids by common sense the practice of my doing so.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to truckinslave)

Post #: 2

RE: DOJ running guns to Mexico? - 3/4/2011 2:32:07 PM

DomKen

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From: Chicago, IL
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Actually and as usual truckin is full of it. The BATF knew the guns had been legally purchased and transported legally to the border, where their jurisdiction ends. Exactly what were the agents in question supposed to do? Arrest the straw purchaser, who had yet to commit a crime? Stop the vehicle transporting them, despite it being completely legal to drive with disassembled weapons in cases?

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 3

RE: DOJ running guns to Mexico? - 3/4/2011 2:33:07 PM

truckinslave

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Joined: 6/16/2004
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Wow. I heart you too.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 4

RE: DOJ running guns to Mexico? - 3/4/2011 2:35:07 PM

mnottertail

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lets not get all kissyface over a tepid partial agreement.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to truckinslave)

Post #: 5

RE: DOJ running guns to Mexico? - 3/4/2011 2:53:55 PM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Wow. I heart you too.

First if we had Gonzales at DOJ, he could just cut a memo making it all legal just like torture. Where did the 'heads roll' there ?

So as opposed to a link providing little more than blather for partisan rant here is one where the evidence is in.

The discovery marked the second time in recent months that a federal agent has been killed by a gun linked to suspected arms traffickers in the U.S. Two assault weapons found at the scene of a December shootout near Nogales, Ariz., that killed U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry were found to have been purchased at a gun store in Glendale, Ariz., in January 2010.

The two cases point up the extent to which cross-border arms trafficking, long blamed for fueling the drug violence in Mexico, is a growing threat to the law enforcement agents charged with halting the flow of guns, drugs and immigrants across the U.S.-Mexican border.

On Tuesday, the U.S. attorney's office in Dallas released two criminal complaints charging Osorio and his brother, Ranferi, 27, with possessing firearms with obliterated serial numbers. The brothers were arrested Monday at their home in Lancaster, Texas, along with their neighbor, Kelvin Leon Morrison, 25, who was charged with knowingly making false statements in acquiring a firearm and dealing in firearms without a license.

According to court affidavits, the three men delivered 40 firearms with obliterated serial numbers to an ATF informant near the Mexican border in November. Drug Enforcement Administration agents sought help arranging the delivery in connection with their investigation of the notorious Zetas drug cartel.

The weapon allegedly used in the attack on Zapata and Avila was purchased by Otilio Osorio on Oct. 10, authorities said, but that only became clear when forensics technicians this week were able to read the filed-off serial number.

"We had been looking at these people as gun traffickers," Crowley said, but agents were continuing to quietly investigate them until the discovery of the gun link over the weekend. "We had to mobilize because of the seriousness of the event, and went and got arrest warrants."

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 3/4/2011 3:14:08 PM >

(in reply to truckinslave)

Post #: 6

RE: DOJ running guns to Mexico? - 3/4/2011 3:01:30 PM

truckinslave

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quote:

Crowley said, but agents were continuing to quietly investigate them until the discovery of the gun link over the weekend. "We had to mobilize because of the seriousness of the event, and went and got arrest warrants."

In other words, the ATF literally watched the guns in question cross the border illegally. Now that those guns have killed an American agent, Crowley and others are attempting to do a little CYA. And you want to help them, somehow, for some reason that undoubtedly comes back to a kneejerk reaction to support any and all things connected to 0bama0.

I wonder how many Americans the vanished Barretts will kill. Do you?

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to MrRodgers)

Post #: 7

RE: DOJ running guns to Mexico? - 3/4/2011 3:06:45 PM

Kirata

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From: USA
Status: offline

CBS News
Surveillance video obtained by CBS News shows suspected drug cartel suppliers carrying boxes of weapons to their cars at a Phoenix gun shop. The long boxes shown in the video being loaded in were AK-47-type assault rifles. So it turns out ATF not only allowed it - they videotaped it.

CNN News
According to Grassley, ATF agents have told his staff "the agency allowed the sale of assault rifles to known and suspected straw purchasers for an illegal trafficking ring near the southwest border."

Center for Public Integrity
“To date over 1,500 firearms have been purchased since October 2009 for over one million ($1,000,000.00) cash in over-the-counter transactions at various Phoenix area” gun dealers, the memo said. Some of the field agents became increasingly incensed. “Nothing happened. We’re monitoring the same buyers buying the same guns from the same dealers at the same rate and we’re not stopping any of it,” Dodson recalled.

K.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 8

RE: DOJ running guns to Mexico? - 3/4/2011 3:55:05 PM

Politesub53

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Were the Arizona gun dealers breaking the law ? If not its truly shocking that this many guns could reach the hands of criminals.

More from the BBC. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12650770

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 9

RE: DOJ running guns to Mexico? - 3/4/2011 4:06:58 PM

Kirata

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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Were the Arizona gun dealers breaking the law ?

(from the third link)

Dodson said some of the cooperating gun dealers who sold weapons to the suspects at ATF’s behest initially had concerns and wanted to end their sales. One even asked whether the dealers might have a legal liability, but was assured by federal prosecutors they would be protected, he said.

But...

“Because there is no federal firearms trafficking statute, ATF must use a wide variety of other statutes to combat firearms trafficking. However, cases brought under these statutes are difficult to prove and do not carry stringent penalties — particularly for straw purchasers of guns,” the report noted.

Now there's a situation that's ripe for correction.

K.

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 10

RE: DOJ running guns to Mexico? - 3/4/2011 4:09:35 PM

truckinslave

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It strains (my) credulity to imagine they were not breaking the law, but the case(s) may be difficult to prove. The government probably will have to prove that the dealer knew the identification he accepted was false, that he knew the guns were going to Mexico, or something similar. "Guilty knowledge" is often problematical. Of course, there may be wiretaps, rats, deals, and stupidity sufficient to make charges stick.

They might also be subject to charges involving improper paperwork, unobserved waiting periods, or somesuch, but it would be relatively easy to design a criminal operation whose intent was to smuggle guns but observed those legal niceties.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 11

RE: DOJ running guns to Mexico? - 3/4/2011 4:17:55 PM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

(from the third link)

Dodson said some of the cooperating gun dealers who sold weapons to the suspects at ATF’s behest initially had concerns and wanted to end their sales. One even asked whether the dealers might have a legal liability, but was assured by federal prosecutors they would be protected, he said.

But...

“Because there is no federal firearms trafficking statute, ATF must use a wide variety of other statutes to combat firearms trafficking. However, cases brought under these statutes are difficult to prove and do not carry stringent penalties — particularly for straw purchasers of guns,” the report noted.

Now there's a situation that's ripe for correction.

K.

Thanks Kirata.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 12

RE: DOJ running guns to Mexico? - 3/4/2011 4:39:03 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

It strains (my) credulity to imagine they were not breaking the law, but the case(s) may be difficult to prove. The government probably will have to prove that the dealer knew the identification he accepted was false, that he knew the guns were going to Mexico, or something similar. "Guilty knowledge" is often problematical. Of course, there may be wiretaps, rats, deals, and stupidity sufficient to make charges stick.

They might also be subject to charges involving improper paperwork, unobserved waiting periods, or somesuch, but it would be relatively easy to design a criminal operation whose intent was to smuggle guns but observed those legal niceties.

There is no way short of a video taped discussion between the dealer and the buyer to prove any such thing and I doubt it would be illegal in any case. If the transfer of possesion occured in Mexico and the serial numbers were removed in Mexico I don't see where any US law was violated.

(in reply to truckinslave)

Post #: 13

RE: DOJ running guns to Mexico? - 3/30/2011 7:38:26 AM

truckinslave

Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline

Just an update. Sec Clinton et al have stonewalled the Senate, but D Issa Has subpoena power, and is now getting into the act.
Issa gets involved

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to truckinslave)

Post #: 14

RE: DOJ running guns to Mexico? - 3/30/2011 8:10:38 AM

Termyn8or

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Well, I would have to agree 100% that it is almost positive no US laws were broken. But then there are treaties.

Now we know full well that treaties are used as toilet paper by the US government, so that doesn't matter either. My problem is that they shouldn't be bothering with this whole thing. Mexicans want to buy guns, sell them. But why make a federal case out of it ? If what if we export is armaments, so be it, let's make some money instead of losing money all the time.

T^T

(in reply to truckinslave)

Post #: 15

RE: DOJ running guns to Mexico? - 3/30/2011 1:58:30 PM

joether

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Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
Well, I would have to agree 100% that it is almost positive no US laws were broken. But then there are treaties.

Now we know full well that treaties are used as toilet paper by the US government, so that doesn't matter either. My problem is that they shouldn't be bothering with this whole thing. Mexicans want to buy guns, sell them. But why make a federal case out of it ? If what if we export is armaments, so be it, let's make some money instead of losing money all the time.

So you are advocating making money and profit off the suffering and destruction of others. WOW.....

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 16

RE: DOJ running guns to Mexico? - 3/30/2011 2:31:23 PM

Edwynn

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For shame! Indeed.

You mean like this?

World's largest arms exporters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry

What do you think the UN's "P-5 plus one" are there for anyway? To spread peace to the world and kill all that good business?

Right.

PS

"We" are making money hand over fist, always have been, not lost money on these deals ever.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 3/30/2011 2:37:09 PM >

(in reply to joether)

Post #: 17

RE: DOJ running guns to Mexico? - 3/30/2011 3:58:15 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

"So you are advocating making money and profit off the suffering and destruction of others. WOW..... "

Basically it's either that or they'll just come and buy all the gunmaking machines.

T^T

(in reply to joether)

Post #: 18

RE: DOJ running guns to Mexico? - 3/30/2011 4:53:01 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
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From: New Hampshire
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Boy,.....our government is getting more and more "transparent" aren't they?

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"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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RE: DOJ running guns to Mexico? - 3/30/2011 10:08:30 PM

Hillwilliam

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Sanity is blaming the Liberals for the gun trade into Mexico. I thought that the Liberals wanted all the gun shops closed down and No guns sold to anyone and the NRA (Conservatives) wanted less regulation on gun sales.

Seems if the libs had their way, those guns wouldn't be sold to ANYONE, much less Mexico because guns would be illegal to sell period. No gunshops for straw buyers to fraudulently deal with.

I'm not denying that there is a prob on the border with fraudulent gun sales and smuggling. I'm just denying that it is the fault of Liberals. Seems the other way around.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 20

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