RE: The Rise of Religious Conservatism ? (Full Version)

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jack8007 -> RE: The Rise of Religious Conservatism ? (3/6/2011 7:22:37 PM)

quote:

almost the opposite


what specifically do you have in mind?



jack8007 -> RE: The Rise of Religious Conservatism ? (3/6/2011 7:25:52 PM)

quote:

religious folks being conservative is new. What is new IMO is them being so active in politics.


You're talking about individuals - he's talking about social movements.   So your point merges with his.



jack8007 -> RE: The Rise of Religious Conservatism ? (3/6/2011 7:28:58 PM)

quote:

Prohibition?


I don't think Prohibition was so closely tied to religion per se.    Or it wasn't tied to other political issues also driven by religious rationalizations.



jack8007 -> RE: The Rise of Religious Conservatism ? (3/6/2011 7:42:47 PM)

quote:

It's not the bluntness; far from it.
It's the vague circuitousness.


But it's still the style, not what he's actually saying.

God would forbid you with actually dealing with the issue, because the answer is obvious that religion has been a profoundly negative influence throughout history.



jack8007 -> RE: The Rise of Religious Conservatism ? (3/6/2011 7:45:44 PM)

quote:

when terms like "conservative" and "liberal" are applied to religion...we have a clue that the subject isn't religion.


And that could only be because you are fixated on TV politics, and jumping to conclusions because you are totally unaware that the terms "conservative" and "liberal" have much broader and more classic meanings.



jack8007 -> RE: The Rise of Religious Conservatism ? (3/6/2011 7:49:59 PM)

quote:

should religion be seperated from politics ?


We have that constitutional mandate in the USA.

Even if we didn't, faith and politics cannot be mixed.   Politics is about getting along with people based on negotiating agreement where the basis for agreement isn't obvious.   Faith is about belief in the absence of evidence, and disregards objective criteria that are necessary to politics.





eihwaz -> RE: The Rise of Religious Conservatism ? (3/6/2011 8:33:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jack8007
quote:

should religion be seperated from politics ?

We have that constitutional mandate in the USA.

The constitutional separation is between religion and government (aka church and state).  Religious organizations can participate in politics (e.g., endorse candidates, advocate for policy).



eihwaz -> RE: The Rise of Religious Conservatism ? (3/6/2011 9:24:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
But, if we can understand why people turn to religion and make religion the only thing in life, perhaps we can understand where it is we in this world are going wrong, for we are going wrong and we live in an increasingly dangerous world, where very few people can destroy very many for the most stupidist of reasons.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
As to religion, my answer is both yes, and no, no because religion cannot be held completely responsible for the bad happenings in the world, but yes for religions are made up of people and it is people that hurt others  and quite often in the name of some such deity, nine eleven for example and so many others since.

The following genocides and wars did not involve religion:
  • King Leopold II of Belgium, Congo Free State 1886-1908 8M
  • World War I 20M military and civilian
  • Josef Stalin, USSR, the Purges plus Ukraine famine 23M
  • Mao Ze-Dong, China, Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution 49M-78M
  • Adolf Hitler, Germany 1939-1945 12M
  • Pol Pot, Cambodia, 1975-1979 1.7M
  • Kim Il Sung, North Korea, 1.6M purges plus concentration camps
  • World War II 60M military and civilian
The preceding is representative, of course, and by no means exhaustive.  This is not to deny that wars and atrocities have not been perpetrated under the auspices of religion throughout history, but rather to illustrate that humans have also committed them without invoking religion.  There is also a large category of conflicts which are primarily ethnic, but appear to involve religion because of the inextricable association of the conflicting groups with particular religions.

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick



Kana -> RE: The Rise of Religious Conservatism ? (3/6/2011 9:40:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

So given that it is accepted that the world appears to be going through a phase of religious conservatism at the present, and perhaps a reason for our lack of understanding and positive communication on the matter, what can be attributed to the rise of religious conservatism ?

I wondered if it was fear, the fact that the world in this age is moving fast, faster than it has ever done before and that because of our advanced communicational technologies, some people react badly to the change and so fortify conservatism in an attempt to slow down the change or in some cases reverse it. But in reversal, what does one reverse too, the actual situation or a supposed situation as the past is lost to most people given our limited lifespan on earth.

But, if we can understand why people turn to religion and make religion the only thing in life, perhaps we can understand where it is we in this world are going wrong, for we are going wrong and we live in an increasingly dangerous world, where very few people can destroy very many for the most stupidist of reasons.

Your thoughts ?



There's a great article out there you should read called Jihad Vs McWorld, kinda a landbreaker in regards to your question.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1992/03/jihad-vs-mcworld/3882/



tweakabelle -> RE: The Rise of Religious Conservatism ? (3/7/2011 3:28:21 AM)

Reading the thread it's apparent that there's no agreement on what the basic words mean. Even the word and concept 'religion' means different things to different people. There's no real agreement on whether religion is becoming more conservative or even if labels like conservative and liberal are relevant.

Is this a source of some of the confusion and/or antipathy? Much as I'd love to be totally wrong, to me, it doesn't look like there's much chance of agreement as long as confusion reigns.



Termyn8or -> RE: The Rise of Religious Conservatism ? (3/7/2011 4:25:14 AM)

"That is fine, have your own private belief, your spirituality, but do not bring it into politics,"

A fine theory but not in practice. When people get wrapped up in it, it pervades their whole thought process. They want to do good, 'like the preacher says'. Few can separarte the issues from one another.

For example I believe that abortion is murder, but the government should not interfere. Having been a bad boy at times, I do not believe criminals should be coddled. I don't do heroin, but if you do, that's your business as long as you don't bother people.

Others would force their will on the governed "for their own good" as if they have some type of pipeline to omnipotent knowledge, and they really do believe it.

That is the problem.

T^T



Aneirin -> RE: The Rise of Religious Conservatism ? (3/7/2011 5:13:19 AM)

quote:

'like the preacher says'.


Exactly, and conversely, like the Mullah says or the Rabbi.

So, it's not God's message, it's the religious leader's and here is where I see the problem, clerical hierachy and their political aims the motivation of people to do 'Gods' will through the cleric's interpretation.

With personal belief, there is no need for an interpreter and there the misinterpretation of God's words, which of course is not saying with personal belief a person might not get it right and go off and do something horrible to others or themselves, but with personal belief, we are talking about an individual, not a congregation.

But what sort of people does religion attract ?

Of those who subscribe to a religion, were you brought up with it from birth via your parents beliefs, or did you find your own truth ?

If the former and your belief comes via your upbringing, were you effectively brain washed into believing ?

In which case why do you believe ?



PeonForHer -> RE: The Rise of Religious Conservatism ? (3/7/2011 5:16:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana


http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1992/03/jihad-vs-mcworld/3882/



Good article. Well worth the read. Thanks!



Aneirin -> RE: The Rise of Religious Conservatism ? (3/7/2011 5:18:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana


http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1992/03/jihad-vs-mcworld/3882/



Good article. Well worth the read. Thanks!


I agree with that, and I have book marked it for further studies.



jack8007 -> RE: The Rise of Religious Conservatism ? (3/7/2011 7:52:07 AM)

quote:

This is not to deny that wars and atrocities have not been perpetrated under the auspices of religion throughout history, but rather to illustrate that humans have also committed them without invoking religion.


I didn't see anybody make that claim.   Pointing out that somebody else is a murderer does not seem - to me - to excuse committing another murder - and particularly where the claim has been made that this religious plan will mitigate evil.   Then what you are talking about is methodical fraud in addition to the original evil - that is, compounded evil.

I find it particularly vicious when somebody claims that asking questions about religious motivations is persecution.   That's precisely the destructive, ignorant mindset that would keep us in the Dark Ages.  



Aneirin -> RE: The Rise of Religious Conservatism ? (3/7/2011 8:35:20 AM)

Fast Reply just as a means of comment on the thread so far

Well, although i did ask for opinions, I was not aware that asking questions such as this would elicit such a response, but yes I can see where some would feel asking such questions some might perceive it as an attack on religion, their religion perhaps, but with my understanding of what faith means to those that have such faith in the various religions, their faith should be strong enough to not let those that question worry them, because those that respond seeing an attack are basically saying their faith isn't strong enough, they may have doubts themselves but will stick with what they have until a better solution becomes available.

But if there is a questioner, which is basically someone who is not easily convinced or has not received the correct training in religion, is it right to deny the questioner, or is it the religious should be answering those questions if they are able and so bring the questioner closer to the religion, or the words of god ?

Blind faith is not something our current society engenders in a person, so those that seek to know will either ask questions or seek elsewhere.



tazzygirl -> RE: The Rise of Religious Conservatism ? (3/7/2011 8:43:52 AM)

quote:

But if there is a questioner, which is basically someone who is not easily convinced or has not received the correct training in religion, is it right to deny the questioner, or is it the religious should be answering those questions if they are able and so bring the questioner closer to the religion, or the words of god ?


Im sorry if you got the impression I was denying you the right to ask questions. At the time of your Op, I didnt know of your condition. My goal was to get you to explain your questions a bit more clearly.

If you could restate your question. Is it you are asking about how people could have blind faith? Or how they blindly follow their faith? I do believe there is a difference between the two. Are you speaking of a particular religion, or any religion? Organized, or just anyone who believes in a higher power?



VideoAdminTheta -> RE: The Rise of Religious Conservatism ? (3/7/2011 2:00:43 PM)

Due to the high demand upon moderators today, this thread will be locked until it can be reviewed.



VideoAdminRho -> RE: The Rise of Religious Conservatism ? (3/7/2011 11:14:47 PM)

I have now unlocked this thread after removing over half of the posts for personal attacks, name calling, hijacks and quoting pulled posts.
I will ask you to please keep on topic and refrain from any further attacks on fellow posters or hijacks of the OP.



Jennislut -> RE: The Rise of Religious Conservatism ? (3/7/2011 11:29:01 PM)

I am not really religious (technically a buddhist), but it really doesn't matter one bit to me what a person's religion is - as long as they leave me free to be my non-religous self



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