RE: Limits?

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Asherscorp1 -> RE: Limits? (3/8/2011 10:14:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP So you would be fine with him telling you to prostitute yourself? And yeah, there are guys who do that. We had one on here a while ago soliciting girls to fly to his continent to earn monopoly money from men he would send to her hotel room. No std scans first or anything. Are you bi? And even if you are, are you willing to have sex with people who don't attract you? Same question with poly, are you willing to be in a relationship with someone you dislike just because he wants her also? What about tickling? Like being restrained and tickled till you're sobbing? Odd that you should mention tickling since it actually is one of the only things I've found that makes me truly freak out and become hysterical. However, if Master told me he was going to tie me up and tickle me for hours I would trust that he had thought it through, formed a plan and that it would be in my best interests in one way or another. Same with everything else you listed. I HATE the thought of Master allowing anyone else to use me or even to play with me but if he required it I know that he would be doing it for some specific reason, even if he didn't tell me what that reason was. He is a very meticulous, calculating person and he would never use me carelessly in any situation. I am far too valuable to break and I know he takes great care in being aware of how anything he requires affects me mentally, emotionally and physically. Therefore, I know that if he has faith that I can handle something, I can, even if I don't know it yet. Things I have been required to do that bring me no pleasure at all or I find intensely demeaning or embarassing I still have a sense of pride and purpose doing because I know he is pleased by it. There are times that level of trust freaks me out in itself but there it is.

porcelaine -> RE: Limits? (3/9/2011 1:08:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP So you would be fine with him telling you to prostitute yourself? And yeah, there are guys who do that. We had one on here a while ago soliciting girls to fly to his continent to earn monopoly money from men he would send to her hotel room. No std scans first or anything. Greetings, For the life of me I cannot understand why these discussions must always wind their way down prostitution/amputation alley. Is it not remotely possible that an individual may have things they find unappealing but exposure brings in a new perspective? In my thirty-nine years I can readily say it's true and I'm pretty certain most of society can corroborate that as well. Therefore, what is seemingly limiting may only prove limited until the right motivation appears to eradicate the line. And for the record, that man isn't her man. Big difference. In response to the OP, I don't operate under the precept of limitations. I have areas of discomfort but I'm well aware that they can be overcome and/or set aside in the right circumstances. Limits have a sense of finality that I'm unable to embrace.It suggests that I cannot trust his decision-making without putting a stop order in place. I'm a slave committed to adhering to his authority, not one I've custom designed to my specifications. I expect that will include instances where his desires are in opposition to my comfort level. But in the grand scheme of things the led don't tell the leader how to do his job. And assuming you've placed the right one at the helm, you really shouldn't have to. Namaste, ~porcelaine

SpiritedRadiance -> RE: Limits? (3/9/2011 1:34:46 AM)
Except not everyone places the authority in the right hands and some people cannot overcome things as much as they want... Your saying in effect that anyone with limits is less and somehow less because they have things they cannot do...I cannot willingly put myself in a situation where i might contract hiv and die and by your standards that makes me less willing and putting myself in a state that i constructed..... It comes down to prostitution and the likes because theses are VERY REAL THINGS people ask of other people....

DarkSteven -> RE: Limits? (3/9/2011 6:12:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance Except not everyone places the authority in the right hands and some people cannot overcome things as much as they want... Your saying in effect that anyone with limits is less and somehow less because they have things they cannot do...I cannot willingly put myself in a situation where i might contract hiv and die and by your standards that makes me less willing and putting myself in a state that i constructed..... It comes down to prostitution and the likes because theses are VERY REAL THINGS people ask of other people.... IMO this discussion is focusing on the limits themselves and not on the Dom administering them. If you're going to go to TPE, you need to make sure that the PERSON you submit to is sane and knows what he or she is doing. That's the idea of TPE, to submit to a person. If you submit to the right one, the limits themselves aren't so important because he or she will be taking care of them.

porcelaine -> RE: Limits? (3/9/2011 7:47:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance Except not everyone places the authority in the right hands and some people cannot overcome things as much as they want... And some people live in fear and are afraid to live as well. I dwell in possibilities. People make bad decisions and that isn't going to change whether it applies to their relationships, employment, friendships, etc. I don't hear the warning signs about those areas, save for live and learn. quote: Your saying in effect that anyone with limits is less and somehow less because they have things they cannot do...I cannot willingly put myself in a situation where i might contract hiv and die and by your standards that makes me less willing and putting myself in a state that i constructed..... I'm sorry, I'm aware of what I wrote and it didn't include the things you've stated. In my opinion you're projecting. quote: It comes down to prostitution and the likes because theses are VERY REAL THINGS people ask of other people.... No, perhaps the individual that is unable to exercise good discernment in choosing an authority figure in her life should refrain from making that selection until she's able to choose wisely. There are many things that take place in the world. I don't expend energy wondering if they'll arrive at my doorstep. I have immense faith in my ability to draw the right to person myself, and if that flounders I have the sense of personal responsibility to step aside until I'm in a better place. Namaste, ~porcelaine

Asherscorp1 -> RE: Limits? (3/9/2011 8:31:17 AM)
I think it goes without saying that if someone believed it a possibility for their Master to cause them to be killed, severly injured or contract deadly diseases they couldn't completely trust that person and still be a rational human being. Like I said, the reason I have such implicit trust resides in my Master's temperment and the absolute sureity I have of my own worth and value to him. Can't play with a broken toy. Don't break the toy. In the unlikely occurance that he one day requires me to prostitute myself I may be somewhat shocked or heart-broken but I am positive that I would be safe. Really, what sort of person would trust someone who didn't obviously have their safety and best interests at heart? That just makes me sad. Are there subs/slaves out there who would give themselves to someone who would hurt them, damage them, cause permanent harm just because they can without caring about the consequences? To me that sort of thing has no place at all here, that is an abhorrent abuse of power, not a healthy power exchange.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Limits? (3/9/2011 9:03:42 AM)
i have to agree with porcelaine and Asherscorp1 -- and i don't believe it's about saying someone is "less" for having limits, it's about NOT saying someone is dumb for saying they don't feel they need them. conversations on limits always end up at "i'm smart for having limits, you're not because you could get mangled or decapitated or something else awful." -- i can't imagine getting into a consensual relationship with someone who would amputate my limbs, or willfully kill me -- if i'm that stupid (by my own standards), i need to be institutionalized. =p i used to have a knee-jerk reaction to people who said "i'm no limits," and i would trot out the "what if he asks you to jump off a bridge -- would you do it?" line. but as i've spent time with the idea, i realize that the concept, when it isn't smothered in fear-mongering, isn't that far off from what i believe. add to that the fact that most people get into relationships with people who either share their core limits, or who have more limits than they do. i don't think anyone would get into a no limits relationship with someone who had a whole bunch of ideas, philosophies, and fetishes that didn't fit them, because, frankly, that would come down to perceived incompatibility. those things come out in the wash while you're getting to know a person, hopefully BEFORE you've decided to devote your life to him. and sure, we hear every day about the monsters who do horrible things, but honestly -- if this guy is out to do something horrible to you, your limits list isn't going to stop him. if he really wants to cut off your arms, he'll just wait until he's got you nicely trussed up in some kind of fancy jute body harness (which ISN'T on your limits list. ^_-), and then go for it. the only limit i had in my last relationship (i should say, the limit that wasn't shared by M) was the head shaving thing, because it scared me beyond words. however, i had faith in him and wanted to overcome that limit for him. i could really easily see myself, now, going the "no limits" route -- provided that i pick someone i can really believe in, someone i trust, love, have faith in, etc (and i have no plan of doing anything BUT that =p haha) . on the Passion group on FL, there was a great topic about "no limits" slaves that basically boiled it down to "Master-defined limits" -- EVERYONE has limits, yes, but for some people, those limits are set by the D/M. no approach is better or worse, just different.

porcelaine -> RE: Limits? (3/9/2011 10:31:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep i have to agree with porcelaine and Asherscorp1 -- and i don't believe it's about saying someone is "less" for having limits, it's about NOT saying someone is dumb for saying they don't feel they need them. It gets tiresome when one routinely encounters derision on their ability to live without barriers circling around. The suggestion that difference implies a slight against the detractor's submission is generally unsubstantiated. quote: conversations on limits always end up at "i'm smart for having limits, you're not because you could get mangled or decapitated or something else awful." Indeed. I can't fathom placing someone at the helm that I needed protecting from. quote: i don't think anyone would get into a no limits relationship with someone who had a whole bunch of ideas, philosophies, and fetishes that didn't fit them, because, frankly, that would come down to perceived incompatibility. those things come out in the wash while you're getting to know a person, hopefully BEFORE you've decided to devote your life to him. I believe people do it all time. For some the desire to be connected far exceeds the necessity of forming the right connections. The Big Bad Wolf didn't come beating down your door. You invited him in. Namaste, ~porcelaine

DesFIP -> RE: Limits? (3/9/2011 12:32:55 PM)
I specifically did not include amputation. I did ask about prostitution because that wacko post was still running through the back of my mind. But people have to talk about edgy activities to know if they're on the same page. And unfortunately there are a lot of guys out there who think with the small head until it's too late. I think it's great that the op doesn't feel the need to discuss disease transmission with her top, believing that he will always think things through. IME damn few people ever think things through and that's why two people discussing things are more likely to prevent a bad outcome than just one.

porcelaine -> RE: Limits? (3/9/2011 1:17:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP I specifically did not include amputation. I did ask about prostitution because that wacko post was still running through the back of my mind. But people have to talk about edgy activities to know if they're on the same page. And unfortunately there are a lot of guys out there who think with the small head until it's too late. The idea ran parallel which is why I included it. I wasn't suggesting you brought it into the discussion. :) I think we should refrain from saying what people have to do. Some ideas are so unthinkable to the participants they don't warrant an in depth discussion. And others want to explore every nook and cranny possible. I don't believe either approach is superior to the other but directly related to its participants. quote: I think it's great that the op doesn't feel the need to discuss disease transmission with her top, believing that he will always think things through. IME damn few people ever think things through and that's why two people discussing things are more likely to prevent a bad outcome than just one. On the other hand there are partners that have cultivated a level of trust that don't require double checking mechanisms. And even if the discussion didn't unfold in the manner mentioned, it may have been addressed in another way. You reference the need to talk, whereas it's my belief that the subjects are better explored prior to its inception. Some people choose to examine it afterward. Viva la difference. Namaste, ~porcelaine

SpiritedRadiance -> RE: Limits? (3/9/2011 2:49:06 PM)
I was with a man for a little over a year before he started to abused me. The first year we were together, the world was perfect, He set tasks I could complete he respected my newness to the lifestyle he was a perfect Dom. He was the love of my life, he respected my limitations, he respected what i could and could not do, we had the perfect bdsm relationship... I gave up my limits because he agreed that he had my safety in mind and i could trust him. After a year together and the knowledge of that year i fully believed in his ability to make the right choice. He then once I was collered and his no limits slave changed because i was no longer "labeled as a submissive" I was given tasks i couldnt complete slowly at first then more tasks....the beatings became more severe, the relationship we had was not what i offered myself to. My previous limits were ignored, and the rule of no harm was ignored. I have the scars still from that man who i was 100% sure would never harm me in my life... My point is even when you believe and you trust that the man you are offering yourself to will never harm you, there are men on this planet that WILL do as such when you offer yourself to them. Does every man No...but even in your best judgment and knowledge....and trust, not every person is who they say they are... Not everyone.... is trust worthy even if they appear to be so...

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Limits? (3/9/2011 3:03:33 PM)
i'm very sorry that happened to you, SpiritedRadiance. that's one of the "monsters" i was talking about -- limits or not, a person like this will still abuse you. limits or no-limits, bad bad things can still happen. no one can ever be 100% sure about anyone, really. but even having limits won't really protect you from a person like that. again, very sorry.

porcelaine -> RE: Limits? (3/9/2011 4:25:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance My point is even when you believe and you trust that the man you are offering yourself to will never harm you, there are men on this planet that WILL do as such when you offer yourself to them. Does every man No...but even in your best judgment and knowledge....and trust, not every person is who they say they are... Not everyone.... is trust worthy even if they appear to be so... I don't discount what you're saying and I'm sorry you've had that experience. But I have never been abused and I believe there are concrete reasons why that has not occurred. I can't speak for your situation, but only acknowledge how I handle my affairs. I cannot and will not live in fear even when my trust has been violated. Because somewhere in the midst of the promises were signs that things were not as I'd hoped. I don't believe that deception is a one-sided affair. It takes equal participation from both to pull it off. And while I cannot change the charlatan's composition, I can make certain that I don't foster behaviors that make me a likely candidate.Although I've had my share of disappointments and unpleasant experiences, I am nobody's victim. I won't allow them to rob me in that manner. Namaste, ~porcelaine

DesFIP -> RE: Limits? (3/9/2011 5:21:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: porcelaine And even if the discussion didn't unfold in the manner mentioned, it may have been addressed in another way. You reference the need to talk, whereas it's my belief that the subjects are better explored prior to its inception. Some people choose to examine it afterward. Viva la difference. Namaste, ~porcelaine Afterward can be too late. And I'm a firm believer in determining compatibility as early as possible. I also don't believe in mind reading. But since the op came here asking about limits, I did assume they had not fully discussed what works for both of them. Because if they had, why bother to ask? Additionally with the years, things change and you may have to add limits when you hit a problem. Many of the things that I would limit with a new partner I don't bother to with him, because he's seen what resulted when we tried something and it failed spectacularly. Doesn't mean I'm willing to do them, just that he's already added it to his list of bad ideas.

porcelaine -> RE: Limits? (3/9/2011 7:36:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP But since the op came here asking about limits, I did assume they had not fully discussed what works for both of them. Because if they had, why bother to ask? Why make the assumption rather than having your suspicions confirmed by the OP? And I'm probably not the right person to address that question to. I have long stated that I don't agree with the notion of seeking relationship assistance from venues of this nature. So when you say why bother asking, I wonder if you've ever done the same? I lump it under the same umbrella in all truth. But that's my protocol. I don't expect other people to behave in the same manner. I merely know what works for me and the results I've gained in response. Namaste, ~porcelaine

CherryNeko -> RE: Limits? (3/9/2011 11:12:51 PM)
Oh, wow, I relate. I do relate. I haven’t found any hard limits per se, maybe because I am/was scared of being a submissive to start with. So far, the things we’ve done sound strange/bad at first and turn out nicely in the end. I’ve thought about it and anyway won’t ask him about his hard limits anecdotes, which he has to have, but I hope he one day just tells me, and since he’ll know mine, maybe then we can lightly break through one or two of them if that’s okay... Glomps you You got me thinking.

IrishMist -> RE: Limits? (3/10/2011 5:21:25 AM)
quote: Limits have a sense of finality that I'm unable to embrace.It suggests that I cannot trust his decision-making without putting a stop order in place Absolutly perfect [:)]

Asherscorp1 -> RE: Limits? (3/10/2011 12:56:26 PM)
ORIGINAL: DesFIP But since the op came here asking about limits, I did assume they had not fully discussed what works for both of them. Because if they had, why bother to ask? Master and I have never discussed "limits" per say, we discuss what he plans to do and the level to which it freaks me out dictates how slowly or quickly we procede. There are things I've said, "I would never willingly do that" and between us that means he would have to order me to do it (which I would) but I would be very uncomfortable or freaked out. However, I have never felt it was my place to tell him, "I won't do that." I can't in my heart accept that it is my choice so why pretend? He is always respectful of my feelings and has never pushed an issue too quickly or forced me into something that would cause me to break down. He has slowly groomed me to do things that I thought horrible a few months ago and now barely blink at. The point of this post wasn't to start a debate on it though, truly. I see a lot of demeaning remarks made toward "no limits" people and I hear horror stories about things that have happened supoosedly because no limits were defined. I don't feel like I am in danger of anything like that but sometimes it's better to act with logic and not heart. I just wanted to get a feel for the journey other people have made and what they have found along the way in this context. Maybe someone out there was "no limits" for years and then one day BAM they discovered one. Perhaps hearing that story would strike a chord and teach me something. That's all I was looking for. And I thank all of you again for the input, it's been helpful and informative. I just wanted to make it clear I wasn't trying to stir the pot, I didn't realize this was such a hot button issue.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Limits? (3/10/2011 1:03:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Asherscorp1 Master and I have never discussed "limits" per say, we discuss what he plans to do and the level to which it freaks me out dictates how slowly or quickly we procede. i think that's pretty sound; just because a person is "no limits" doesn't mean that this person doesn't still communicate and talk about things with the partner.

stellauk -> RE: Limits? (3/10/2011 2:19:46 PM)
I have my own individual take on this.. Firstly I won't play with anyone or even consider a dynamic until there's some degree of depth to my knowledge and understanding about them as a person. The dynamic is just part of the relationship and it's that part which for me exists in the mind, so I focus my attention pretty much on discovering and finding out how someone thinks and feels about different things, what values they hold, I get a sense of their character, their inner nature, and the general purpose and trajectory they are following in life. Part of this process is trying to work out answers to the big question 'why?' What does the other person get out of the dynamic? What do they need as 'must haves' in a relationship? What do they want? What do they crave? Desire? I try to communicate the same thing back. The way I see it we're all in this for pretty much similar reasons, we're looking for fulfillment, pleasure, happiness, excitement, stuff that gives us a buzz and pushes all the right buttons, and we are all trying to do it in our own individual way for our own individual reasons. The thing is I'm not attached so much to the activities as I am to people. A BDSM checklist to me is meaningless and I'm extremely cautious around anyone who bases their relationships on one. What I'm interested in is the effect, what doing something does to someone, how it makes them feel. A limit to me is any activity which is detrimental to either me or the other person or any other person or living being or involves someone else in the dynamic without their consent. It is also something which doesn't have any effect on at least the other person. I don't mind doing stuff for other people which I don't particularly enjoy or get anything out of as long as they're getting something out of it and appreciate it. Relationships are all about give and take, compromise, and I accept that sometimes you don't always get what you want. I know that we all enjoy different things and have our favourite activities that we hope the other person is into. But this to me is secondary to the relationship that I have with someone and the experiences I share from being in that relationship. I also feel that from a submissive viewpoint learning to share the interests and activities enjoyed by a Dominant is an essential part of developing the relationship.

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