RE: The Fate of Capitalism - Was Marx Right?

RE: The Fate of Capitalism - Was Marx Right? (Full Version)

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Pleasurepleasing -> RE: The Fate of Capitalism - Was Marx Right? (3/7/2011 8:58:00 PM)
IOops

Marini -> RE: The Fate of Capitalism - Was Marx Right? (3/7/2011 9:09:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hlen5 I can appreciate your desire for a change. What I read with that statement is a not a change for the better. What I read was you hope you live to see the fall of the US. If it is just a system change, never mind. [/quote ] I do think things will get worse before they get better. I guess you haven't read the many times I have said, that I think we are headed towards a depression? Once we hit bottom, I hope we can create a much better system.

rulemylife -> RE: The Fate of Capitalism - Was Marx Right? (3/7/2011 9:17:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Your OP is absurd and completely ridiculous on many levels... First, Marxism is succumbing to Capitalism, not the other way around. The problem Marxists keep running into is that those pesky Capitalist pigs always want to improve their lot in life, and no matter how many millions of them the Marxists manage to slaughter there are always more Capitalists willing to take that chance for a better life for themselves and their families stepping up to replace them. Further, Capitalism isnt a "system" its the natural order, which is why the rigid system of Marxism is doomed over and over again to fail. You just cant beat mother nature. Well, I don't have any idea what you meant by your ridiculous statement of capitalism being "the natural order", but it is clear that we have a growing gap between the wealthy and everyone else.

subexploring -> RE: The Fate of Capitalism - Was Marx Right? (3/7/2011 9:36:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Oh bullshit. People have been buying and selling goods and services, and bartering, and bringing goods to market ever since there were villages. Socialism is more akin to fiefdoms the way it is practiced, bow ye down to your lord and master Fidel or Mao or Stalin or whoever your leftist dictator happens to be. You clearly don't understand capitalism. Capitalism is not about trading at the village market -- it's a particular system for accumulating and using capital. (Hence the name capitalism). It only dates back to the early modern period and really took off in the industrial revolution. Look, you can't have it both ways. There has been a huge transformation in wealth accumulation since the late 18th century, an enormous explosion in productive capacity. If capitalism is just what happens when one primitive tribe trades seashells for feathers, then it accounted for very little growth through most of human history, and it is not the cause of our great wealth today. If capitalism was a major driver of the industrial revolution then it must be new and not so natural. quote: And many modern unions are more about monopolizing labor market and bankrupting their employers or driving industry offshore (while making the fat cat union bosses wealthy) than what unions were about in their earlier days. Unions are about slimy politicians catering to them while ignoring the real needs of the voters and the citizens at large. Unions aren't perfect, but neither are corporations. One concentration of power is needed as a check on the other. It's sad to see the American working class turning on one of the key institutions that got them where they are today. Got to hand it to Fox News and the other puppetmasters -- it's amazing to see the anger and bitterness created by corporate outsourcing and the Wall Street crash turned against ordinary teachers, nurses, firefighters, cops.

rulemylife -> RE: The Fate of Capitalism - Was Marx Right? (3/7/2011 9:37:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Considering all the millions and millions and millions of people who have been murdered in cold blood by Marxists trying to make that failed ideology work perhaps thinking people everywhere should be even more combative than I whenever some so-and-so tries to float an outrageous lie like this. I didnt think this flavor of Kool-Aide was still available except possibly in North Korea and some parts of Cuba. How many people has our country murdered in the effort to "spread democracy"?

pyroaquatic -> RE: The Fate of Capitalism - Was Marx Right? (3/7/2011 10:57:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Thats the guy providing for his family. Marxists / socialists / communists / liberals / leftists / progressives call it greed but its not greed at all, its love of family. Its natural instinct, its survival. And you dont come by it without working your ass off, either. Making things for people, providing goods and services that others need, which that kind of effort should be rewarded while Marxism punishes that effort. quote: What is the bottom-line and how can we get more money? Air, Shelter, Fire, Water, Food, Socializing... those are basic needs. We make tools to gain mechanical leverage in acquiring these items. Anything else is frivolous and categorized as a want or desire to improve the comfort of individuals. A Praying Mantis bites the head off of its male partner after copulation, snakes eat their young, cats bring home dead animals, ravens collect shiny things. After all it is only natural. It is only natural for things that do not work to be replaced by the things that do work. Companies that do not work due to mismanagement, misappropriation of funds, poor service/quality of goods deserve to go under. I die-for whatever reason-I do not get a second chance. My genetic material does not pass go and I do not copulate and mutate. Greed is natural. It is the act collecting more than what you need and ever could use at the expense of the needs/comforts of others. Survival is natural. Collect exactly what you need and ever could use without upsetting the natural principle of equivalent exchange. There is a vast difference between greed and love. The guy providing for his family should not be saying 'how can we get more money' but 'how can we survive'. I work my ass off cleaning, organizing, and on the rare occasion writing. I pay my way... food... rent... bills... medication... therapy... and all of the vapors related to materialistic life with the help of room mates. I keep working harder and the prices keep going up. I have a computer, clothing, a few tools, and an analog frog. I care little for material things. Capitalist, Communist... in the position I am in now does not mean a damn thing to me. Survival comes first. All of those pretty words and shiny gold does not mean anything when you are dead. Labels are so easy... just pick 'em and stick 'em. quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity The Obamas of this world can only choke off our energy supplies for so long before the reality hits that we need energy to live. screw the conservation of energy and rampart waste due to excessive consumption of limited resources. spend more money and waste more energy so we can waste... more... energy and spend more money. I agree though. There is untapped energy out there that can be harnessed and combined with the conservation of energy/increasing the efficiency of energy used could solve many problems. With the population climbing how long will it take before we are at the same point and we exhaust these resources? Death makes room for nubile life.

jack8007 -> RE: The Fate of Capitalism - Was Marx Right? (3/7/2011 11:10:38 PM)
quote: seeing the Fall Malthus said that too. I think we can make it, but not with the corrupt politics we've seen recently.

Termyn8or -> RE: The Fate of Capitalism - Was Marx Right? (3/8/2011 1:41:01 AM)
FR So though the prediction comes true, it is false. Got it. T^T

EternalHoH -> RE: The Fate of Capitalism - Was Marx Right? (3/8/2011 4:23:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity leftists / progressives call it greed but its not greed at all, its love of family. Oh Jesus-fucking-Christ. Look at all that "love" in dysfunctional rich families..... Willbedouchebaggery already beat you to the title as our Ambassador to Pluto.

Politesub53 -> RE: The Fate of Capitalism - Was Marx Right? (3/8/2011 11:44:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Oh bullshit. People have been buying and selling goods and services, and bartering, and bringing goods to market ever since there were villages. Socialism is more akin to fiefdoms the way it is practiced, bow ye down to your lord and master Fidel or Mao or Stalin or whoever your leftist dictator happens to be. And many modern unions are more about monopolizing labor market and bankrupting their employers or driving industry offshore (while making the fat cat union bosses wealthy) than what unions were about in their earlier days. Unions are about slimy politicians catering to them while ignoring the real needs of the voters and the citizens at large. Really ? Buying and selling ( more so bartering) isnt Capitalism under any definition I have ever read. As Jack has pointed out Capitalism grew from Fiefdoms and medieval ideas of ownership. Even going back further the original markets were controlled, by the rulers of the land and you couldnt operate for free in them. Taxes, unfair taxes at that, had to be paid.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: The Fate of Capitalism - Was Marx Right? (3/8/2011 11:50:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marini Hell yes Marx was ~~right!~~ wrongLook how great the United States used to be! Look at the last 50 years! Many in the middle class are spiraling downhill as the country becomes more and more socialist FYP

pahunkboy -> RE: The Fate of Capitalism - Was Marx Right? (3/8/2011 11:50:34 AM)
Top Economists: Trust is Necessary for a Stable Economy … BuTop Economists: Trust is Necessary for a Stable Economy … But Trust Won’t Be Restored Until We Prosecute Wall Street FraudMost policy makers still don’t understand the urgent need to restore trust in our financial system, or the need to prosecute Wall Street executives for fraud and other criminal wrongdoing.http://blacklistednews.com/Top-Economis ... 3/Y/M.html

hlen5 -> RE: The Fate of Capitalism - Was Marx Right? (3/8/2011 12:18:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marini ........I do think things will get worse before they get better. I guess you haven't read the many times I have said, that I think we are headed towards a depression? Once we hit bottom, I hope we can create a much better system. I try not to see an avatar and think conservative/liberal and take each posting on it's merits. I'm not disagreeing we could be heading towards a depression. I think people better be prepared to feed themselves very soon. I don't think we need a different system, we need to improve the system we have.

Marini -> RE: The Fate of Capitalism - Was Marx Right? (3/8/2011 8:36:19 PM)
We agree that the current "system" is broken, and we need to improve it, change it and hopefully make it better. Unfortunately, we often don't grow until we are tested. Often, no pain no gain.

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