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RE: Fear of your own desires? - 3/22/2011 11:46:49 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

To my mind, the extreme ends of kink correlate very closely with mental illness. As such, were I to become aware of the desire to torture within myself, I would have severe questions about my own state. If a sub desired to be tortured I would have severe concerns about her mental health.

The structures of human psychology are far too nebulous to make that quick of a jump. We're leaping to connect an act to an intent (and, subsequently, to a neurosis spawned from a previous act).

Or perhaps I view things in a way that sees how liberally "mental health" could be called into question with an average person based on any number of mental/psychological fancies typically espoused.

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Post #: 41

RE: Fear of your own desires? - 3/22/2011 11:51:19 PM

DevilishEnvy

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I am glad to see this was posted. I just went thru ultimately the same. It is having the control to know when to go and when to stop. It is knowing when the tears are real. And knowing what you both expect. It takes a lot of trust and backbone to let someone hit/hurt you, but it takes even more trust to let yourself do it.
I was ultimately conditioned that hitting was wrong, as was babygirl, but it became a thought that not meeting her needs was wrong too.

Start small. Make lists together. Talk ALOT about what you want, what she wants, and what you both expect.

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RE: Fear of your own desires? - 3/23/2011 12:06:16 AM

Awareness

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
The structures of human psychology are far too nebulous to make that quick of a jump. We're leaping to connect an act to an intent (and, subsequently, to a neurosis spawned from a previous act).

Sociopathy and psychopathy aren't neuroses, they're full fledged functional disorders which make an individual unfit to be part of a society. In like manner, when an individual's psychology connects pleasure with the infliction of pain in others, this potentially makes them similarly unfit to be part of a society.

Ultimately, you could argue there's no objective criteria by which mental illness can be judged. However in real terms, given that no man is an island, the final arbitrator has to be the degree to which a specific dysfunction (or 'deviation from the norm' if you prefer) inhibits an individual's ability to function as part of a cooperative society.

quote:

Or perhaps I view things in a way that sees how liberally "mental health" could be called into question with an average person based on any number of mental/psychological fancies typically espoused.

That's a separate issue. I don't take the DSM-IV all that seriously, it's the product of a rather unscientific process with a good degree of pseudo-mumbo-jumbo tainting any legitimate input. However there are definitely people who match the diagnostic criteria espoused within who inflict emotional, mental and physical pain on others. In that sense, those definitions are useful because they enable further categorisation which allows our society to make decisions about how to protect others from such individuals.

You seem to be saying such distinctions are abitrary and our knowledge is insufficient to correlate cause with effect. I'm saying an individual who tortures consensually for pleasure is not that far removed from one who tortures for pleasure without consent. In fact, it's possible to argue that the former is simply engaging in effective risk management and that in the right scenario, they would transition from one to the other.

Mind you, I always found "Do as thou wilt" to be a total bunch of cobblers anyway.

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RE: Fear of your own desires? - 3/23/2011 12:23:54 AM

IronBear

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quote:

Mind you, I always found "Do as thou wilt" to be a total bunch of cobblers anyway.

This doesn't surprise me in the least. Seems that you enjoy taking the piss out of everything others may see as important or hold as valuable.. Just your nature I guess (sad really), which is why I have no time for you. mishaps under differing circumstances when you hide not behind a KB you may be an enjoyable person to share a drink with.. Who knows? Stranger things have happened...

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RE: Fear of your own desires? - 3/23/2011 12:27:55 AM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

Sociopathy and psychopathy aren't neuroses, they're full fledged functional disorders which make an individual unfit to be part of a society. In like manner, when an individual's psychology connects pleasure with the infliction of pain in others, this potentially makes them similarly unfit to be part of a society.

We're talking about degrees of control in the end, though, aren't we? The whole basis of humanity (and the expectations wrought from it) rests not on the purging of primal instincts, but on the ability to not succumb to them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

Ultimately, you could argue there's no objective criteria by which mental illness can be judged. However in real terms, given that no man is an island, the final arbitrator has to be the degree to which a specific dysfunction (or 'deviation from the norm' if you prefer) inhibits an individual's ability to function as part of a cooperative society.

Socially, absolutely. But relationships are discrete group settings where the only ethically viable arbiter has to become the partner(s). At that point we're just measuring the discrepancies between socio-typically accepted acts and ones that are consented to by the parties of the relationship. Psychology essentially becomes trying to paint some solid structure around a human popularity game, in that sense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

You seem to be saying such distinctions are abitrary and our knowledge is insufficient to correlate cause with effect. I'm saying an individual who tortures consensually for pleasure is not that far removed from one who tortures for pleasure without consent.

In fact, it's possible to argue that the former is simply engaging in effective risk management and that in the right scenario, they would transition from one to the other

I suppose in a complete assessment sense, they're not that different. But the one difference that is there happens to be the only one that matters: being able to control whatever primal/biological instincts are there to where the act is only happening consensually.

Otherwise we're saying there's no difference between a lover and a rapist; between a consumer and a thief.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

Mind you, I always found "Do as thou wilt" to be a total bunch of cobblers anyway.

I've always found the rede to be perhaps the best building block to fashion a genuinely viable system of ethics (although I'm far removed from that religious/philosophical system now). Granted, the "an' it harm none" part becomes kind of necessary there.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 3/23/2011 12:32:03 AM >

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I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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Post #: 45

RE: Fear of your own desires? - 3/23/2011 3:38:29 AM

ranja

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Palliata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherscorp1

I was wondering if any Doms/Masters out there have ever run into this situation. Have you ever wanted to whip/beat/torture your submissive but been afraid of letting yourself because you are not yet entirely comfortable with that side of yourself? How did you over-come this and make sure that both of you had your own needs met in the mean time?

When I was just starting out I was a bit uncomfortable with my sadistic side and I had real trouble with the things I enjoyed doing. It was really just a matter of working into it slowly for me - start out with spanking and just work your way up to the more extreme stuff. To be honest this is a very, very good idea anyway as it allows you to master one skill before moving onto the next.

This was the case for my Husband too...
it did not take Him as long as a year to handle a whip with confidence though, more like an hour or so

For us it was helpful that i was inclined to inflict pain on myself and finally i showed Him, He saw the marks i was comfortable leaving on my own body
The first few times He smacked my bottom my bum bruised badly, it could have turned Him off but i was fine... loving it in fact
now my bottom does not bruise anymore and He hits harder
He allows me to tie my breasts tight with ribbon and has me eventually ask Him to untie them
there are so many games to be played...

ETA does the Master really have a fear of his own desires though or is it a case of the sub wanting more?

< Message edited by ranja -- 3/23/2011 3:41:56 AM >

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Post #: 46

RE: Fear of your own desires? - 3/23/2011 4:21:26 AM

IronBear

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FR
I debated this reply for a while and chose not to use psycho-babble or even good sound arguments. Instead I'd rather pose this: For some their inner desires are triggered by memories of things they have either watched first hand or on TV in un -named locations where humans are placed in high stress situations or tortured. All good fodder for some but for others some of whom may have been "victims": of such things or some who may have actually participated in doing such things (for real). My thoughts are that this may be excellent reason for those folk not to follow through unless they can do so (preferably monitored) in a safe manner without entering into them potentially fatal scenarios.... I know my limitations and know where I will not ever venture in a "Play Scenario".

Just my views no more. No less.

< Message edited by IronBear -- 3/23/2011 4:23:02 AM >

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RE: Fear of your own desires? - 4/4/2011 4:45:31 PM

sheisreeds

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The short answer is yes.

Both with my sadism and masochism I've had fears of the places I've wanted to go. Fear is healthy, it often signals baggage and the need to work through your own issues before even attempting to act on desire.

I didn't really go the route of working my way up to it, as a lot of the stuff inbetween didn't interest me at all. If I want to slam someone's head into a wall, that's what I want to do, tapping them on the noggin with my pointer finger isn't gonna get the desired result or turn me on. When I was ready I just was.

I've had to address a lot of my issues, face my demons, my fears, and my reasons for doing what I do. I also had to recognize where my empathy lies, and always be able to check in with that.

That said, I have healthy fear of the skillset involved. I practiced with knives first, read a lot, talked to people. I always test out new toys, usually on myself. If I'm gonna whack my partner's nuts with a rope dart, I learn how to use the rope dart first.

Having healthy confidence in you, and your abilities is essential. Even more essential is having confidence in your limits, and limitations and knowing you won't go there.

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RE: Fear of your own desires? - 4/4/2011 9:58:25 PM

PrinceImriel

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Personally for me it was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. I had never hit a woman before and was born and raised not to. On top of that I grew up a very angry person, with one hell of a temper. I've punched more men than I can count.

About 12 years ago, I entered in to personal therapy for anger management and it changed my life. I spent an hour a week for two years on a couch. It made me a more compassionate person, and also made me very vulnerable to a lot of other feelings that I never knew I had, because anger had been the one feeling overtaking and out powering all else. The first time I was asked to hit a woman, and I mean literally begged to do so, it was very very hard for me .   With the help of some very willing ladies along the way and over the years, I've become quite good at it.

I've seen the pure beauty that can come from the emotional release a sub has after a good discipline spanking. I've also seen how just the right amount of pain at the perfect moment can leave a woman shuddering uncontrollably for minutes after the most powerful orgasms.

How do I counter it, I never do it in anger. I do it because I've realized that I have a bit of a sadistic nature, I'm very good at it now, and it's become an art.   I prefer to use my open hand. It connects you and allows you to feel what your sub is feeling. I also monitor very closely for excessive bruising.

Also after I have administered a good spanking I keep vitamin E cream, which I then gently administer and massage to the effected areas.

It's all about finding the perfect balance of pleasure and pain.

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RE: Fear of your own desires? - 4/6/2011 8:35:10 AM

DesFIP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sheisreeds

The short answer is yes.

If I want to slam someone's head into a wall, that's what I want to do, tapping them on the noggin with my pointer finger isn't gonna get the desired result or turn me on. When I was ready I just was.

So did you first inflict Traumatic Brain Injury on yourself?

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RE: Fear of your own desires? - 4/9/2011 6:04:32 PM

sheisreeds

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No TBI need occur.

Been noting that walls get a really bad rap on this forum LOL. Really if you've got a basic understanding of how pushing and shoving works, and both parties have a basic understanding of safe break falls there is no increased level of danger.

And yes, I did actually gain a sense of the impact and how it felt. I've hit myself with every weapon I've used on someone else, including my hands.

My partner and I primarily play through fighting. One thing you learn fast is confidence in what you do, and what you receive. There are safe ways to fall, be thrown against the wall, etc. Just as there are safe ways to be the one giving the blows.

There is no time to think or hesitate, you just do it.

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