RE: When does life begin?

RE: When does life begin? (Full Version)

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Moonhead -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 1:05:44 PM)
So we're talking about a fully formed nervous system (which come quite late in the second trimester, I think) as a bare minimum to qualify a bun in the oven as a human being, then.

hlen5 -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 1:28:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Here is a loaded question... and since among all the sciences and among all the religions there isnt an agreement... when does Human life begin? Why do you believe so? I agree that the fetus becomes "human" when the soul enters the body. If the soul leaves the body at death (discorporation), then I believe the soul enters the body with the baby's first breath. I already had posted this in the thread DarkSteven started.

TotalDiscipline -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 1:39:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead So we're talking about a fully formed nervous system (which come quite late in the second trimester, I think) as a bare minimum to qualify a bun in the oven as a human being, then. In some countries the law is a judge about that....but I don't know eactly what Biologist say about it. BEsides that..for a female with a fetus/egg inside her..it might feel even differently. http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/fetusperson.html

tazzygirl -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 3:36:48 PM)
quote: i have to agree with you; it begins at conception for me. ask anyone who ever lost a "collection of cells" that they reeeeeeally really wanted. it's just as real to them from minute 1. Many women dont even know they are pregnant until they miss their periods. Many embryos, almost 50% end up as a spontaenous miscarriage.

tazzygirl -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 3:44:36 PM)
quote: She became a real being to me when I could feel her move. Hiccupping actually. I had had a few sonograms before that and she wasn't really 'real' until I could actually FEEL her. "Personhood" came when I could see her deliberately moving around for some reason of her own. What you described is commonly called "quickening". Its the moment the mother feels the baby move within her. And its varied for all women... from as early as 15 weeks to a woman who has already had a child, to as late as 22 weeks for a first time mother. And I believe its at that moment that the baby becomes real to any mother.

Real0ne -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 5:21:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hlen5 quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Here is a loaded question... and since among all the sciences and among all the religions there isnt an agreement... when does Human life begin? Why do you believe so? I agree that the fetus becomes "human" when the soul enters the body. If the soul leaves the body at death (discorporation), then I believe the soul enters the body with the baby's first breath. I already had posted this in the thread DarkSteven started. and before that its a what? carrot? bird?

tazzygirl -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 5:25:36 PM)
If you look at an acorn.. do you say... "Thats an acorn"? Or "thats an oak tree"?

Real0ne -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 5:26:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 Aylee said it the easiest way for one who is accepting of the life they carry and consider it, are planning for it, and expecting it to be a life to care for as a baby. That would make a human life a life (to that person) at conception. Scientifically...or unemotionally...one single functioning cell is considered a life. So a potential human life starts out with (ok) 2 cells and reproduces and develops into a baby. But that 2 cell organism thats growing fastly within a females body cannot sustain itself without the willingness of the female holding it to keep it...or that females health. I believe a human life begins when it can sustain itself, even with medical assistance, without the mother. so then permanently retarded children that are incapable of self support even at the age of 30+++++ are not living and are not human have no soul I believe a human life begins when it cannot sustain itself without the mother etc etc etc etc?

Real0ne -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 5:28:40 PM)
strictly speaking I would agree with the soul part but they are sentient. now what? quote: ORIGINAL: Brain Life begins when the entity under consideration has a conscious, or as someone once said, " I don't believe embryos have souls." quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy You have to define life before you can discuss when it begins.

Real0ne -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 5:30:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 Aylee said it the easiest way for one who is accepting of the life they carry and consider it, are planning for it, and expecting it to be a life to care for as a baby. That would make a human life a life (to that person) at conception. Scientifically...or unemotionally...one single functioning cell is considered a life. So a potential human life starts out with (ok) 2 cells and reproduces and develops into a baby. But that 2 cell organism thats growing fastly within a females body cannot sustain itself without the willingness of the female holding it to keep it...or that females health. I believe a human life begins when it can sustain itself, even with medical assistance, without the mother. Which is why the legal definition is based on when it first stands a chance of surviving in an incubator, rather than in the womb. legal definition is when it can have a "title" put on it and claimed by the master as property either directly or indirectly. the master issues a certificate of berth or birth which ever you prefer.

Real0ne -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 5:41:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stellauk We are limited only by limitations of perception but have that same cognitive capacity to learn and increase our awareness, we have the same ability to create and be creative because part of that mass of spiritual energy which drives the evolution of the Universe forward, understood to some in the concept of God, is an essential part of life and is what explains our presence here in the physical plane of existence. Therefore for me the perceived start of life can be defined as when the metaphysical coexists with the physical to produce a life form capable of independent creativity. Where such a point exists relative to time, space and dimension is something I feel lies still beyond that what can be commonly perceived simply because the objective reality of metaphysical existence is so limited. Each life form is individual, therefore I'm not entirely sure a common definite point can be established but like death can only remain a concept based on a consensus of experience. I think we fundamentally agree.... I snipped the rest because it was so incredibly long and if that post is your creation congrats on its composition.

Real0ne -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 5:43:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee RO you missed the point. I was not and am not using a scientific or legal definition. I am using MY experience with ONE individual and when those things happened for ME. right I understand but in the end there are only certain areas that address matters of this nature.

Real0ne -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 5:49:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl If you look at an acorn.. do you say... "Thats an acorn"? Or "thats an oak tree"? what you seem to be wrestling with is the "character". When the sperm enters and merges with the egg if you will the character changes. It is that change in character that is the source of and determines the new existence. Hence sentient if left to its own devices. Prior it can be said to be human life as its not a carrot or cabbage but not sentient or capable of being sentient if left to its own devices or the devices of nature. an unfertilized egg can never be sentient and can never survive by the devices of nature. there is a distinct and clear line in the sand on the matter. additionally that is why I pointed out several distinctions on the use of the word life. human life is a continuation unfertilized eggs are human life for all intents and purposes. sentience and the capability of sentience is the character that sets apart the raw dna and glob of the egg (raw human life) from the soon to be (thinking being), the child.

daintydimples -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 6:12:50 PM)
Human life begins at conception, IMO. quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan That's the real question, isn't it? I once told someone in an argument (my brother actually) that when you can pull the thing out, stick a bottle in it's mouth and it sucks, you have life. Until then, you have a parasitic growth of cells that is utterly dependent on its host. After watching a fetus grow from a few weeks into a child, I had to call him up and tell him he was mostly right. You watch it, week by week, it's pretty clear life exists and is no more dependent than folks on life support in a hospital. As to the when, for me the only answer that makes sense is conception. What exists prior is a potential life. It's funny that we can, in science, describe single cell life in fossils or under a microscope, but get tongue tied when it is in someone's stomach. The only reason we do is that the question has huge implications in reproductive rights. If we identify a point where we say life exists, then the choice to terminate becomes a legally sanctioned form of murder. By my own description above, I believe abortion to be the taking of life, regardless of when the procedure occurs. Does that mean I'm anti-abortion? No. It means I'm sick of people offering up sanitized language in order to make folks feel better about what they're doing. If I'm going to create a legal/illegal point, it would be a moving target, one defined by viability. Currently that's right around 21-22 weeks I think. I may be off a week or two. Sue me. Either way, somewhere around there. I think once life can exist outside the womb, there is nothing left to argue about in terms of whether life exists or not. It's there. It's living. It's breathing. It's thinking. Much of the same is true the week before. The difference is viability outside the host. It is a boundary that medical science will continue to push back, which is why I say it's a moving target. Prior to that, I don't see much difference between abortion and choosing to withhold fluids from someone who is terminally ill. Both choices will achieve the end result which is the termination of a life. I agree with the above, most especially the highlighted paragraphs. Though I feel quite strongly that females should have the option of having an abortion, IMO that option means terminating a life. Of course, I also feel quite strongly that euthanasia should be legal.

Aylee -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 8:13:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: She became a real being to me when I could feel her move. Hiccupping actually. I had had a few sonograms before that and she wasn't really 'real' until I could actually FEEL her. "Personhood" came when I could see her deliberately moving around for some reason of her own. What you described is commonly called "quickening". Its the moment the mother feels the baby move within her. And its varied for all women... from as early as 15 weeks to a woman who has already had a child, to as late as 22 weeks for a first time mother. And I believe its at that moment that the baby becomes real to any mother. I did know that the term, "quickening" was common for it. However, they also used that term in the Highlander movies. I did not want any confusion. In some ways your question is in the metaphysical area and so I tried to answer it based on my experience and how I felt. In Judaism a fetus becomes a legal person with rights and a soul when it crowns. Up until this point abortion or doing something to cause a woman to loose a fetus is not murder. It is only damage, like cutting off an arm. However, a fetus does have some limited rights such as inheritance.

tazzygirl -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 8:30:35 PM)
Must paternity be established first? I know its a bit off topic, im just curious about that.

Real0ne -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 8:40:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee *In Judaism a fetus becomes a legal person with rights* and a soul when it crowns. Up until this point abortion or doing something to cause a woman to loose a fetus is not murder*. It is only damage, like cutting off an arm. However, a fetus does have some limited rights such as inheritance. the word "person" is a commercial word. for instance the king or socereign is not considered to be a person! Persons have rights and duties ascribed to them! "People" are considered in america to be the sovereigns... amazing when we play with words and find out how every "authoritarian" group we come to believe in is nothing more than another means to extort money from us huh.... check it out quote:* "This word `person' and its scope and bearing in the law, involving, as it does, legal fictions and also apparently natural beings, it is difficult to understand; but it is absolutely necessary to grasp, at whatever cost, a true and proper understanding to the word in all the phases of its proper use ... A person is here not a physical or individual person, but the status or condition with which he is invested... not an individual or physical person, but the status, condition or character borne by physical persons... The law of persons is the law of status or condition." F.S.101(3) - The word "person" includes individuals, children, firms, associations, joint adventures, partnerships, estates, trusts, business trusts, syndicates, fiduciaries, corporations, and all other groups or combinations. F.S. 760.02 Definition (6) "Person" includes an individual, association, corporation, joint apprenticeship committee, joint-stock company, labor union, legal representative, mutual company, partnership, receiver, trust, trustee in bankruptcy, or unincorporated organization; any other legal or commercial entity; the state; or any governmental entity or agency. 26 U.S.C. 7701 – Definitions - (a) When used in this title, where not otherwise distinctly expressed or manifestly incompatible with the intent thereof - (1) Person - The term ''person'' shall be construed to mean and include an individual, a trust, estate, Partnership, association, company or corporation. 26 U.S.C. 7343 - Definition of term ''person'' The term ''person'' as used in this chapter [Chapter 75] includes an officer or employee of a corporation, or a member or employee of a partnership, who as such officer, employee, or member is under a duty to perform the act in respect of which the violation occurs 16 U.S.C. 5502 (7) The term ''person'' means any individual (whether or not a citizen or national of the United States), any corporation, partnership, association, or other entity (whether or not organized or existing under the laws of any State), and any Federal, State, local, or foreign government or any entity of any such government. now here is the kicker! "Since in common usage the term `person' does not include the sovereign, statutes employing that term are ordinarily construed to exclude it." U.S. v. United Mine Workers of America, 330 U.S. 258 67 S.Ct 677 (1947): "In common usage, the term `person' does not include the sovereign and statutes employing it will ordinarily not be construed to do so." [U.S. v. Cooper, 312 U.S. 600,604, 61 S.Ct 742 (1941)] U.S. v. General Motors Corporation, D.C. Ill, 2 F.R.D. 528, 530: "In common usage the word `person' does not include the sovereign, and statutes employing the word are generally construed to exclude the sovereign." Church of Scientology v. US Department of Justice (1979) 612 F2d 417 @425: "the word `person' in legal terminology is perceived as a general word which normally includes in its scope a variety of entities other than human beings., see e.g. 1, U.S.C. para 1." ok just a little side note to calling yourself and your child a person. it designates law, your status in society. and it aint much unless you are sovereign. that is how that word person is used in that statement you gave us using person.

Aileen1968 -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 8:45:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Here is a loaded question... and since among all the sciences and among all the religions there isnt an agreement... when does Human life begin? Why do you believe so? For me it was the exact moment I found out that I was pregnant. I never thought of the life growing inside of me as an embryo or a fetus. That was my child from that split second onward.

gungadin09 -> RE: When does life begin? (3/9/2011 10:30:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Here is a loaded question... and since among all the sciences and among all the religions there isnt an agreement... when does Human life begin? Why do you believe so? i don't believe human life begins at one moment in time. i believe that "becoming human" is continuous process that occurs throughout the development of the fetus. In other words, a fertilized embryo is alive and has complete human DNA, but is less of a "human being" than it is at 1 week, or 8 weeks, or 22 weeks, pretty much up until the point a woman's water breaks, when it's as human as it's ever going to get. i believe that designating any one point in time as the "beginning" of human life is arbitrary. However, as far as the law is concerned, a point must be designated. The question then becomes, if a fetus becomes a human being by degrees, at what point in it's development is it more human than not? Like i said, any answer will be arbitrary. But i believe that "viability" is a better answer than any other. A "fetus" becomes a "human being" at the point in time that it has a reasonable chance of surviving outside it's mother's womb. pam

gungadin09 -> RE: When does life begin? (3/10/2011 1:00:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gungadin09 quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl when does Human life begin? A "fetus" becomes a "human being" at the point in time that it has a reasonable chance of surviving outside it's mother's womb. To be absolutely specific: i believe a fetus stops being a lump of human cells and starts being a "person" or "human being" at 22 weeks, or viability, because that's when it can survive without it's mother. i believe that's the first time it can be said to have a "self", instead of being a sort of growth within it's mother. However, technically, it was alive before that, and had human DNA before that. So: It is alive It is genetically human But it only stops being a thing and starts being a person (with rights) when it can survive on it's own. If the question is, what is the first point that it's both alive and human, the answer is at conception. If the question is, what is the first point that it's alive, human, and a enough of a person to be entitled to its own life? i believe the best answer to that question is, at viability. So: human life begins at conception. Human beings begin at 22 weeks. pam

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