Does life begin at a single point?

Does life begin at a single point? (Full Version)

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DarkSteven -> Does life begin at a single point? (3/9/2011 6:47:08 AM)
tazzy started a thread about when human life should be considered to begin. That got me to thinking: Should there be only a SINGLE point? For example, could killing a fetus that is wanted (e.g., shooting a pregnant woman in the stomach) be considered murder while aborting the same fetus be legal? The abortion folks, pro and con, have been fighting over the life-beginning point for decades, all with the idea that there can only be one point. I'd love to see a dual system but keep tripping up on how to differentiate. Maybe the mother's wishes would be the only criterion? If the fetus is killed in any other way than a mother-approved abortion?

mnottertail -> RE: Does life begin at a single point? (3/9/2011 6:51:48 AM)
This is a garbled mess for me also. Just as a uff da right off the bat in the same vein as this small slice of a question is: Is anothers desire for this life to work its untimely end to the grave unimpeded a necessary and sufficient condition to call it life?

Real0ne -> RE: Does life begin at a single point? (3/9/2011 6:54:10 AM)
NO in terms of a fetus life is chain, like inheritance passed from one generation to the next. The individual with sentient capacity however does come into existence with the fetus, in that respect life begins at successful fertilization. On the other hand in law life begins at a point where "title" can be claimed by the master which is known as the birth.

tazzygirl -> RE: Does life begin at a single point? (3/9/2011 6:55:37 AM)
Life begins at fertilization? Before implantation?

Real0ne -> RE: Does life begin at a single point? (3/9/2011 6:58:16 AM)
re-read what I said and think about it this time, its all covered

DarkSteven -> RE: Does life begin at a single point? (3/9/2011 6:59:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Life begins at fertilization? Before implantation? tazzy, RO's argument is that it begins at a single point. Which point it is, is not really in the topic of this thread. I was hoping that a dual system could be set up. It'd be hard as hell to implement, but as someone who believes in keeping abortions legal, it always pisses me off when a wanted fetus is murdered by some thug, and I wish that the legality of abortion was not the price that must be paid for not charging him with murder.

mnottertail -> RE: Does life begin at a single point? (3/9/2011 6:59:14 AM)
Ja, regardless of our differences on the religious aspects, taz--- that is a chasm that is unnavigable for me also. And implantation as well........ To blow your nose is to murder rhinovirus. Cuz in respect to life, there is no difference between a dog and a god.

Real0ne -> RE: Does life begin at a single point? (3/9/2011 7:02:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Life begins at fertilization? Before implantation? tazzy, RO's argument is that it begins at a single point. Which point it is, is not really in the topic of this thread. I was hoping that a dual system could be set up. It'd be hard as hell to implement, but as someone who believes in keeping abortions legal, it always pisses me off when a wanted fetus is murdered by some thug, and I wish that the legality of abortion was not the price that must be paid for not charging him with murder. extinguishing life is a loss of sentience it is a single event the body remains behind

tazzygirl -> RE: Does life begin at a single point? (3/9/2011 7:03:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Life begins at fertilization? Before implantation? tazzy, RO's argument is that it begins at a single point. Which point it is, is not really in the topic of this thread. I was hoping that a dual system could be set up. It'd be hard as hell to implement, but as someone who believes in keeping abortions legal, it always pisses me off when a wanted fetus is murdered by some thug, and I wish that the legality of abortion was not the price that must be paid for not charging him with murder. First, in order to set up any system, you have to define the particulars. This one has yet to be defined.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Does life begin at a single point? (3/9/2011 7:25:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Life begins at fertilization? Before implantation? tazzy, RO's argument is that it begins at a single point. Which point it is, is not really in the topic of this thread. I was hoping that a dual system could be set up. It'd be hard as hell to implement, but as someone who believes in keeping abortions legal, it always pisses me off when a wanted fetus is murdered by some thug, and I wish that the legality of abortion was not the price that must be paid for not charging him with murder. Why should there be a dual system? The right of an entity to live is most critical to the entity, and it is irrelevant to that entity who murders it. Either the entity has a right or it doesnt.

Real0ne -> RE: Does life begin at a single point? (3/9/2011 7:40:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Life begins at fertilization? Before implantation? tazzy, RO's argument is that it begins at a single point. Which point it is, is not really in the topic of this thread. I was hoping that a dual system could be set up. It'd be hard as hell to implement, but as someone who believes in keeping abortions legal, it always pisses me off when a wanted fetus is murdered by some thug, and I wish that the legality of abortion was not the price that must be paid for not charging him with murder. First, in order to set up any system, you have to define the particulars. This one has yet to be defined. sentience with regard to the moment of fertilization I would term as the instant of the capacity for sentience. In the age of atomic time the second the sperm breaks through the membrane the fetus is not yet sentient is it. however left to the normal course of events the fetus becomes fully vested with sentience. I believe splitting the hair as fine as I just did is frankly ridiculous and only adds unnecessary ultimately irrelevant distractions to the topic. It seems a point of reason to simply state that once fertilized the fetus is sentient.

StrangerThan -> RE: Does life begin at a single point? (3/9/2011 7:50:18 AM)
A mother-approved abortion... now there's an oxymoron for you.

jlf1961 -> RE: Does life begin at a single point? (3/9/2011 7:55:19 AM)
life, in my opinion, begins at conception.

Real0ne -> RE: Does life begin at a single point? (3/9/2011 7:55:26 AM)
the greatest problem in life today is all the completely oblivious that are incapable of even spelling metaphysics, theology, philosophy, much less have any education in it and they are all part of that democratic "mob" rule. a country ruled by a sovereign body of nitwits and corporate thugs. thats truly comforting

mnottertail -> RE: Does life begin at a single point? (3/9/2011 8:02:49 AM)
corporate thugs and democratic mobs are hardly justification for defining sentience as the moment a sperm augers into an egg. even maritime law wouldn't cop to that.

Real0ne -> RE: Does life begin at a single point? (3/9/2011 8:12:56 AM)
re-read what I said, s l o w l y you are confusing the justification for my position (only one set of several not stated), with the object of my position.

mnottertail -> RE: Does life begin at a single point? (3/9/2011 8:26:06 AM)
I am not confusing a fuckin thing. Murder by rhinovirus anyway you cut it.

Falcor64 -> RE: Does life begin at a single point? (3/9/2011 8:29:02 AM)
There are two different questions here- the first is when life begins and the second one is about sentience. The first one is slippery because if you define "life" at fertilization, or even implantation, then many, many, many women become guilty of involuntary manslaughter. Easily half of all pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion, most before the mother even knows she's pregnant. All she'll know is that she had a heavy period.But, if the embryo is "alive" in any sort of legal sense, then someone has to be responsible for it's "death" too. Sentience is defined as "self-awareness" and the first good evidence of that is not until about 20 months of age. The research on that point goes like this- take a toddler and put some rouge on his/her nose. Then let toddler see themselves in a mirror. The ones older than 20 months touched their noses, while the younger ones either did not react, or reached toward the mirror. The classic study here is Lewis & Brooks-Gunn (1979) if you're interested.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Does life begin at a single point? (3/9/2011 8:38:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Falcor64 There are two different questions here- the first is when life begins and the second one is about sentience. The first one is slippery because if you define "life" at fertilization, or even implantation, then many, many, many women become guilty of involuntary manslaughter. Easily half of all pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion, most before the mother even knows she's pregnant. All she'll know is that she had a heavy period.But, if the embryo is "alive" in any sort of legal sense, then someone has to be responsible for it's "death" too. Sentience is defined as "self-awareness" and the first good evidence of that is not until about 20 months of age. The research on that point goes like this- take a toddler and put some rouge on his/her nose. Then let toddler see themselves in a mirror. The ones older than 20 months touched their noses, while the younger ones either did not react, or reached toward the mirror. The classic study here is Lewis & Brooks-Gunn (1979) if you're interested. There are many far more recent studies that assess sentience in levels, and conclude that at least as early as 2 months infants display activities that are more than instinctive and indicate an awareness of their interaction with their envrionment, consequences of their actions and their physical orientation relative to others.

stellauk -> RE: Does life begin at a single point? (3/9/2011 9:10:28 AM)
Life begins at conception - neat concept right? Wouldn't it be nice to have a definite starting point to define the start of life? Unfortunately it's not possible because the reality is different. Conception isn't an event. It's a process. Pregnancy itself is pretty much about that process. But then again, what is life? Is it cell mutation and reproduction? is it when the physical and the metaphysical come together to create a living being capable of independent thinking and creativity? And what about birth? Child development? If life begins at conception, does this mean you are still alive when you are not breathing? When your heart is no longer functioning? Can we honestly regard a mere zygote or embryo the same as a functioning, thinking, feeling human being? I personally define life as the union of the physical and metaphysical - the body, spirit and mind coming together as one - that point being more or less when the embryo becomes a foetus. This is some way into pregnancy. Nobody knows for sure when it exists for we cannot perceive the spiritual in quite the same way as the natural or physical but it strikes me as a better point on which to base the rights of the unborn child without inhibiting the rights of the woman carrying the embryo. And having read the justification made by Republican senator Roger Wicker who is behind this Life At Conception Act where he attempts to present belief as scientific fact (and fails) I would suspect that this Act is more about removing the rights of women than protecting the rights of the unborn child.

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