RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions in Japan (Full Version)

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tweakabelle -> RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions in Japan (3/16/2011 5:10:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

As I said, IN THEORY, you could put photovoltaic cells on every rooftop in an urban area, but it still will not produce the energy needed by an average sized city. Any supplier of alternative energy generation equipment for you home recommends a combination of wind and solar power.


Please excuse me, I may have jumped the gun a tad. Obviously you have thought about these issues long and hard. And certainly in far greater technical depth than me.

Do you agree that there is merit in de-centralising power generation, or in the small scale application of the principle of energy self-sufficiency? A city of homes that are, say, 50% self sufficient would make a large impact on the economics of power generation in my view.

Acting locally does contribute to global outcomes



jlf1961 -> RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions in Japan (3/16/2011 5:29:02 PM)

Tweakabelle, I have been looking into solar and wind for my home for a while now. So I have researched the topic quite a bit.

IF you could get every home owner, or even half of the home owners in a given city to go to solar and wind power, AND you got the electric companies to set up the system for each of these individuals to sell unused power back to the grid, you would make a dent on the overall power consumption and generation in an urban area.

Then you have another slight problem. For the most efficient solar power generation, the cells have to be facing south, in that case in a house that the roof line runs north to south, you would need to cover both halves of the roof in solar panels.

Next, they have to be cleaned, in areas of high pollution, that is about once a month, or they lose the limited efficiency they have. In my area the problem is dust, and one friend that has the same kind of set up I am looking at, cleans his panels every week, year round.


Solar power generation, in and of itself, is labor intensive, just in cleaning the panels. And to be honest, climbing up on the roof every month or so can get a bit dicey on a two story house. And around here, IN A CLIMATE THAT RARELY GETS HEAVY SNOWFALL, builders are building houses with such steep roof pitches that could sell bill board space on some of them, which would make cleaning the panels downright dangerous.



willbeurdaddy -> RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions in Japan (3/16/2011 5:34:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


Nonsense. Sunlight is free, solar energy is far from it.

quote:

tweakabelle
It does surprise me Willbe, to be forced to point out to such a notable authority on economic matters as yourself that solar energy is, in fact, free. To convert that energy into electricity involves costs.


quote:

willbeurdaddy
It would have been shorter to say "I agree", but I know you'd choke on the words.


Clearly, it has escaped your attention that I was contradicting you, not agreeing with you. Sorry but I am unaware of any treatment or cure that might useful to you in this instance.



No, you weren't contradicting me, you apparently didn't understand my post. "solar energy is far from it" refers to the costs of harnessing sunlight



Real0ne -> RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions in Japan (3/16/2011 5:34:26 PM)

why not build tesla magnifying transmitters?

100,000 horsepower out for ever 10 horsepower in



jlf1961 -> RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions in Japan (3/16/2011 5:38:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy



No, you weren't contradicting me, you apparently didn't understand my post. "solar energy is far from it" refers to the costs of harnessing sunlight



I would like someone to actually name a power generation system that is FREE.



Real0ne -> RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions in Japan (3/16/2011 5:41:05 PM)

sun



outhere69 -> RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions in Japan (3/16/2011 6:02:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

Over the past few decades, however, a series of studies has called these stereotypes into question. Among the surprising conclusions: the waste produced by coal plants is actually more radioactive than that generated by their nuclear counterparts. In fact, the fly ash emitted by a power plant—a by-product from burning coal for electricity—carries into the surrounding environment 100 times more radiation than a nuclear power plant producing the same amount of energy. Coal Ash Is More Radioactive than Nuclear Waste

Just something to think about.

Not even close to spent fuel rods (the type in cooling ponds). 

What the article compares is the radiation emitted by nuclear power plants that are operating normally - not ones with exposed fuel, open structures leaking low levels of radioactive material, and possible containment breaches that would leak high level actinides.  One of the reactor's running MOX and that would be a disaster to let loose - it's got much more plutonium than standard fuel rods near the end of their cycle.

truckinslave - just who'd confusing hydrogen gas with a hydrogen bomb?  I haven't heard anyone do that yet.



rulemylife -> RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions in Japan (3/16/2011 6:18:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave


Do you know how many people Chernobyl killed? 56.

A full meltdown in the open air- effectively zero containment- complete with a graphite explosion (a material not used in Japans reactors, and a truly stupid idea) killed a total of 56 people. This in spite of third-world treatment of people affected.

The sky is not falling on America.

It has fallen on Japan, true. But even there many more at serious risk of death from hypothermia than radiation.


That depends on what source you want to use.

Photos: A Look At Chernobyl - The Worlds Worst Nuclear Accident ...Mar 15, 2011 ... A World Health Organisation report released in September put the overall death toll from Chernobyl at 4000

The Chernobyl plant blew up at 1:23am 26 April 1986, spewing out a radioactive cloud and contaminating much of Europe. An estimated 15,000 to 30,000 people have died in the aftermath. Over 2,5 million Ukranians suffer from health problems related to the Chernobyl blast, with 80,000 of them receiving a pension.



Icarys -> RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions in Japan (3/16/2011 7:16:07 PM)

quote:

As I said, IN THEORY, you could put photovoltaic cells on every rooftop in an urban area, but it still will not produce the energy needed by an average sized city.

You're right if you're speaking of standard PV systems but you're wrong if you believe solar can't work right now for massive needs.

http://www.zenithsolar.com/
This company has built a farm of Concentrated Solar PV collectors that's been operational for a year now. These could be placed on rooftops with relative ease and do what you say can't be done. Will it make it in the US on a time-line and scale in order to help..Who knows.


There's another company that uses old Stirling engine technology in conjunction with solar concentrators to produce energy straight from the heat of the sun.

I'll be using, soon enough(not really soon enough), a fireplace/steam engine/Stirling engine combo for my power needs so I prefer conservation and alternative energies over glutenous consumption and potentially world crippling fuels.

You could easily, depending on your location of course, use a home system like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTvAL7ty53M



Real0ne -> RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions in Japan (3/16/2011 8:32:16 PM)


the problem with house roofs is you need in the most efficient system, 3sq meters/kw if I remember the cipherin on it.



Icarys -> RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions in Japan (3/16/2011 9:04:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


the problem with house roofs is you need in the most efficient system, 3sq meters/kw if I remember the cipherin on it.


It's a bit better with HPCV and CPV systems. These systems can extend vertically at greater ratios to horizontal as well.

In general:
The problem with people is that they believe they're thinking big with ideas like nuclear and now with a push to natural gas seemingly as well but in reality, they're only thinking small. Any resource that has the potential for large scale issues, most notably, some of those pointed out by tweakabelle, is nothing more than deluded pipe dreams being handed to you while you gobble them up. The potential for large-scale ill outcomes and immense issues just isn't worth it.

(BTW..She made a very good point. Together a number of existing techs could easily take up a great deal of real estate that hazardous fuels occupy if they were implemented on larger scales..)

Anyone with an ounce of vision could see this.



ChiDS -> RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions in Japan (3/16/2011 10:46:00 PM)

I still have to put my vote with a combination of geothermal, wind, and solar.  Now it has been pointed out to me that geothermal is not entirely clean.  But if we would put the money we are using, towards more research on all these non renewable energy sources, towards further study on geothermal I'm sure we could come up with something.  All advancement in geothermal needs is a bigger budget.  But as I have said before, this won't ever happen, because you cant make profit from abundance.



DomKen -> RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions in Japan (3/17/2011 8:29:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

While we don't get much exposure from the sun or other sources, radon etc., we certainly get some exposure to all three kinds of radioactivity, alpha beta and gamma.

For instance naturally occuring carbon 14, small amounts are present in you and all living organisms, decays by emitting beta particles.


I've seen some massive ignorance on threads on CM, many times.

But the ignorance paraded in this thread is beyond belief.

Nuclear power has massive, long term risks, which mankind is only just beginning to understand. The nuclear industry do their best to obfuscate and keep hidden those errors they make, when those errors can remain among us for decades, even centuries.

If anyone seriously thinks that nuclear power is a safe option, they are deluding themselves.


I'm puzzled, how is your post a response to mine? Are you claiming that we don't get exposed to alpha, beta and gamma from the environment?



Icarys -> RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions in Japan (3/17/2011 12:19:16 PM)

quote:

Solar power generation, in and of itself, is labor intensive, just in cleaning the panels. And to be honest, climbing up on the roof every month or so can get a bit dicey on a two story house. And around here, IN A CLIMATE THAT RARELY GETS HEAVY SNOWFALL, builders are building houses with such steep roof pitches that could sell bill board space on some of them, which would make cleaning the panels downright dangerous.

We could do something similar to this commercially and all those things would be added into the bill as they are now. I much prefer a little self-sufficiency over corporate powers myself.

Finding answers a lot of times is all up to individual personalities. In other words..you'll find what you're looking for..either for or against. The answers are out there to be found..I choose to find the ones that tell me how I can do something instead of the other way around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTQ4cFn5sXs&feature=related



ChiDS -> RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions in Japan (3/17/2011 1:25:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

Solar power generation, in and of itself, is labor intensive, just in cleaning the panels. And to be honest, climbing up on the roof every month or so can get a bit dicey on a two story house. And around here, IN A CLIMATE THAT RARELY GETS HEAVY SNOWFALL, builders are building houses with such steep roof pitches that could sell bill board space on some of them, which would make cleaning the panels downright dangerous.

We could do something similar to this commercially and all those things would be added into the bill as they are now. I much prefer a little self-sufficiency over corporate powers myself.

Finding answers a lot of times is all up to individual personalities. In other words..you'll find what you're looking for..either for or against. The answers are out there to be found..I choose to find the ones that tell me how I can do something instead of the other way around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTQ4cFn5sXs&feature=related



Indeed, self-sufficiency should ALWAYS be over corporate power.



Moonhead -> RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions in Japan (3/17/2011 3:01:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
IF you could get every home owner, or even half of the home owners in a given city to go to solar and wind power, AND you got the electric companies to set up the system for each of these individuals to sell unused power back to the grid, you would make a dent on the overall power consumption and generation in an urban area.

You're aware that they have such a system in a few parts of Germany and it's working out very well? Most of the people who putting electricity back into the grid are using generators rather than solar cells and windfarms, but a few of them are managing to generate a lot more electricity than they use even with the green generating methods. Of course, these tend to be people who are living out in the sticks with a lot of land for windmills and/or a lack of air pollution to bung up up their solar cells.

(Of course, neither system would be a lot of good in Japan, which is why they're pretty much dependent on nuclear power in the first place...)



tweakabelle -> RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions in Japan (3/17/2011 6:46:21 PM)

quote:

Moonhead
You're aware that they have such a system in a few parts of Germany and it's working out very well?



I've heard that there is a complete island in Denmark (pop 4,000 ppl) relying exclusively on renewable energy sources. Sorry but I can't recall its name.

I haven't heard about the schemes you mentioned. Is there a link available?



Icarys -> RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions in Japan (3/18/2011 7:43:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Moonhead
You're aware that they have such a system in a few parts of Germany and it's working out very well?



I've heard that there is a complete island in Denmark (pop 4,000 ppl) relying exclusively on renewable energy sources. Sorry but I can't recall its name.

I haven't heard about the schemes you mentioned. Is there a link available?

A quick trip on Google turned up this.
http://greenupgrader.com/3798/samso-the-100-sustainable-carbon-neutral-island/

Isn't that great.

Edit: Follow the sources for more info. Better reads, I think.



ChiDS -> RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions in Japan (3/18/2011 12:09:28 PM)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMy0TYqsRa4

To me it would have said more if he would have actually shown ALL the channels currently on tv in Japan to fully prove there was a media blackout.  But he does seem pretty pissed off and hes in Tokyo so I figure it's at least noteworthy enough for people to check out.



jlf1961 -> RE: Living in a nuclear world? Nuclear Plant Explosions in Japan (3/23/2011 12:44:43 PM)

quote:

TOKYO - Radiation leaking from Japan's tsunami-damaged nuclear power plant has caused Tokyo's tap water to exceed safety standards for infants to drink, officials said Wednesday, sending anxiety levels soaring over the nation's food and water supply.

Concern in Tokyo over radiation in tap water



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