RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. (Full Version)

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CruelNUnsual -> RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. (3/23/2011 9:15:50 AM)

Someone mentioned earlier that there is a difference between "humiliation" and "degradation". Degradation is a technique used to achieve humiliation, which is really just brining one's insecurities to the forefront. That can be "constructive process", if used to correct those insecurities, or it can be a "destructive process", if the goal is breaking down the subs sense of self in order to remake her/him in the Dom's vision. In the context of fear play of course it is the destructive aspects that take the forefront.




porcelaine -> RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. (3/23/2011 9:20:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

I've discovered those who seek out humiliation are usually pretty thick-skinned over certain subjects, in reality. There is something in the desired scene that holds psychosexual (or some other form of) power to them, and that's what allows them the ability to turn it into "playtime". Throw in a thing for being an object of attention and you have what makes up a considerable portion of those "into humiliation".


Marc,

Our discussion led me to ponder your perspective and the idea you were attempting to convey. The challenge I encountered in embracing it was the reality that my mind doesn't veer towards the negative in relation to my partner. So yes, humiliation would have some measure of enjoyment for other reasons disclosed. Also, the idea that it would ever get to the point of being horribly destructive to my person isn't something I've truly pondered. I don't know if this is a result of the trust placed in the other person, or maybe a bit of naivete on my end. It's probably a mixture of both.

The psychosexual angle makes me question a few things from my past. It was never an intentional undertaking. He utilized the tool to address my ambivalence and resistance concerning my position. In time I would come to find pleasure in the suffering I endured. But I note it is not the sort that would have damaged my person. And while it has become a part of my sexual repertoire, that was never the goal. Its inclusion is an unexpected result of continued exposure and the changes the engagement elicited. I am not the same.

quote:

I think it's true that humiliation or degradation play can migrate into more serious ground, depending upon the foibles of the Master / Mistress / Cruel Bastard, who may have a penchant for "pushing the envelope" for their own mental sadism, much at the expense of his or her trusting victim. Of course at this point we are no longer speaking of the sole motives in the submissive party any longer, no more than I would say someone who was sucker punched asked for it.


And this brings us back to your original point that I couldn't understand but see quite clearly at present. Perhaps the verbiage you've utilized isn't off the mark. Although I'm a little troubled in all truth. Since the idea of 'humiliation' is really what I've fathered and will never reach the dimensions that the other person can 'conjure', is it really just a stage after all? Its purest variety that you've eluded to would probably fall outside of the parameters that either would wish to explore, assuming we're relatively well adjusted people. So, riddle me this. Is it possible to broach the pure without the casualties you've disclosed? Some ruination perhaps? In an effort to keep it 'real' of course.

Thank you again. I'm a little slow at times. :)

Namaste,

~porcelaine




NuevaVida -> RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. (3/23/2011 6:29:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
Also, the idea that it would ever get to the point of being horribly destructive to my person isn't something I've truly pondered. I don't know if this is a result of the trust placed in the other person, or maybe a bit of naivete on my end. It's probably a mixture of both.


Hi porcelaine,

This brings up a thought I'd like to add to the topic.  The destruction that degradation ultimately brought me was not something I had considered, either, as a result of my trust, and also because it was my calling to simply do/endure what was required.  Thinking it through was not my place in that relationship; I simply (or not so simply) needed to process what occurred in a way that did not negatively impact him.  And so I did...well, for the most part.

It wasn't until some time after the relationship ended that I began to understand the ramifications of what took place. I am quite sure the former owner has no idea what I continue to face, years later.  What I thought was making me stronger, actually weakened me in places.  Evidence of this shows itself even in my present.  This is probably why I shy away from humiliation and degradation so much now.  I fear it, to the point where, if what my owner is doing even remotely begins to mirror an extremity that occurred previously, I completely freeze.

Wounds have not yet healed. Should I be led into such activities again, I would hope he would also lead me back into the light, when all is said and done.





porcelaine -> RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. (3/23/2011 6:57:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

Thinking it through was not my place in that relationship; I simply (or not so simply) needed to process what occurred in a way that did not negatively impact him.  And so I did...well, for the most part.


Hi Nueva,

When I speak about protecting the fertile soil between my ears this is what I'm referencing. Allowing an onslaught of ideas into my mind facilitates endless churning and what if conversations that are detrimental to my countenance and ability to follow without "thinking it through" as you've noted. Although I experienced things that weren't to my liking, it isn't a practice I'm willing to forsake. I sincerely believe that I must place my trust in him and if that isn't possible I've elevated the wrong man. I can't begin mind fucking things to death based on what might occur. I'm well aware of the risks implied with that stance, but it's a fundamental part of my slavery that has brought me to this point.

And yet...

quote:

It wasn't until some time after the relationship ended that I began to understand the ramifications of what took place. I am quite sure the former owner has no idea what I continue to face, years later.  What I thought was making me stronger, actually weakened me in places.  Evidence of this shows itself even in my present.  This is probably why I shy away from humiliation and degradation so much now.  I fear it, to the point where, if what my owner is doing even remotely begins to mirror an extremity that occurred previously, I completely freeze.


Your response is understandable. Given all that you've endured it's a testament to your tenacity and unwillingness to give up that you're able to be in this position once more. Many do. I elected to take time away to dismantle everything and the process was more involved than I articulate. It was necessary to expunge the ghosts and the manacles put in place that might hinder my growth and performance. Allowing him to have that measure of presence and control was unacceptable. It had to go. And it wasn't an overnight process. I put years into the project. Rebuilding me was more important than starting again. The latter merely allowed me to return.

quote:

Wounds have not yet healed. Should I be led into such activities again, I would hope he would also lead me back into the light, when all is said and done.


I have the greatest confidence that you will be able to resume these things when the time is right. To suggest that the past would have that degree of influence over your future isn't something I will embrace. Take comfort in the things you've reclaimed and remind yourself of this when the lambs begin to howl. A new day has come and in time their murmurs will be silenced. [;)]

Namaste,

~porcelaine




NuevaVida -> RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. (3/23/2011 7:22:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

Hi Nueva,

When I speak about protecting the fertile soil between my ears this is what I'm referencing. Allowing an onslaught of ideas into my mind facilitates endless churning and what if conversations that are detrimental to my countenance and ability to follow without "thinking it through" as you've noted. Although I experienced things that weren't to my liking, it isn't a practice I'm willing to forsake. I sincerely believe that I must place my trust in him and if that isn't possible I've elevated the wrong man. I can't begin mind fucking things to death based on what might occur. I'm well aware of the risks implied with that stance, but it's a fundamental part of my slavery that has brought me to this point.


I agree, porcelaine.  Even now, I either trust him or I don't.  I believe I have chosen wisely this time, and in the past two years he has given me no reason to doubt his intentions for me.  I trust he will not harm me.  Such trust does come with risk, and I have no desire to play a tug of war game with his authority and control.  Because of the slow pace we have taken in moving forward, the risk we speak of becomes smaller over time. I trust the man whose character I have come to know.

And yet...

quote:



Your response is understandable. Given all that you've endured it's a testament to your tenacity and unwillingness to give up that you're able to be in this position once more. Many do. I elected to take time away to dismantle everything and the process was more involved than I articulate. It was necessary to expunge the ghosts and the manacles put in place that might hinder my growth and performance. Allowing him to have that measure of presence and control was unacceptable. It had to go. And it wasn't an overnight process. I put years into the project. Rebuilding me was more important than starting again. The latter merely allowed me to return.


I was in the process of rebuilding and did not want to start again.  But sometimes opportunities come before we think we're ready.  The thing is, some of the things I thought I had resolved internally re-introduced themselves in the context of a relationship. That was something I did not see coming...silly me.

quote:



I have the greatest confidence that you will be able to resume these things when the time is right. To suggest that the past would have that degree of influence over your future isn't something I will embrace. Take comfort in the things you've reclaimed and remind yourself of this when the lambs begin to howl. A new day has come and in time their murmurs will be silenced. [;)]


I didn't mean to portray I'm still huddling in a corner crying over such things (exaggeration for emphasis there), but that at times I am genuinely surprised when the "lambs howl" (ha, love that).  I know exactly which pasture they've come from and I know how to squelch them, but it reminds me there are still open wounds and how suddenly they can provoked.  I've told the man I hate to think he is walking on a land mine, but the truth is, it doesn't happen very frequently.  It's just that when it does, it isn't anything subtle, lol.

I was hesitant to even post in this thread for that reason.  But it is not my nature to hide from my fears; rather, I think it's best to confront them and shine a spotlight on them so I can remove them.

As he says, baby steps. [;)]




NuevaVida -> RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. (3/23/2011 7:25:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

Of course at this point we are no longer speaking of the sole motives in the submissive party any longer, no more than I would say someone who was sucker punched asked for it.


I wanted to back up a few steps to thank you for pointing this out, for what it's worth.  So, thank you.




porcelaine -> RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. (3/23/2011 8:00:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

Such trust does come with risk, and I have no desire to play a tug of war game with his authority and control.  Because of the slow pace we have taken in moving forward, the risk we speak of becomes smaller over time. I trust the man whose character I have come to know.


Sometimes words are spoken and it lends the impression that these things happen overnight or it's easy for some of us. It takes time and there are things I routinely confront when dealing with someone that may never reveal themselves without his presence. It's the forward movement rather than backwards that I'm holding on to. And as you've shared, the small steps become much larger leaps eventually.

quote:

I was in the process of rebuilding and did not want to start again.  But sometimes opportunities come before we think we're ready.  The thing is, some of the things I thought I had resolved internally re-introduced themselves in the context of a relationship. That was something I did not see coming...silly me.


It was not my intention to do this again. I found myself in a situation that I couldn't walk away from in spite of the necessity of doing so. By the time he let go I was not in a good place. I was fortunate to have kind people in my environment that offered the buffer and sanctuary I required. One day I saw the withered woman in the mirror and she looked haggard and worn.

I recalled the liveliness she once had and the effervescent glow that was no more. That image would be the driving motivation behind what I pursued. And just like it began there came the time when I realized it was done. But that didn't make it easier. I had a lot to lose and the time away brought questions and doubts that didn't exist in the past. I have dodged my share of opportunities since then. Not because they lacked promise. But truthfully because I no longer function with my eyes wide shut. I see him in all his glory and the gruesome parts he'd prefer to cover.

quote:

I didn't mean to portray I'm still huddling in a corner crying over such things (exaggeration for emphasis there), but that at times I am genuinely surprised when the "lambs howl" (ha, love that).  I know exactly which pasture they've come from and I know how to squelch them, but it reminds me there are still open wounds and how suddenly they can provoked.  I've told the man I hate to think he is walking on a land mine, but the truth is, it doesn't happen very frequently.  It's just that when it does, it isn't anything subtle, lol.


Oh no, I didn't think that at all. The little nuisances rear their heads when you least expect it, but as you've stated you're aware where it's coming from and that reduces a bit of its bluster. And that's really half the battle won. I still have my own to contend with. But I understand they can only impact me to the degree that I permit. I suppose I'm at a point where I'm ready, really ready. And I celebrate the possibility of having the opportunity that seemed unattainable long ago.

quote:

I was hesitant to even post in this thread for that reason.  But it is not my nature to hide from my fears; rather, I think it's best to confront them and shine a spotlight on them so I can remove them.


Thank you for your transparency. It allowed me to unveil my own. We've come a long way. :)

Namaste,

~porcelaine




IronBear -> RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. (3/23/2011 11:15:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

. So, riddle me this. Is it possible to broach the pure without the casualties you've disclosed? Some ruination perhaps? In an effort to keep it 'real' of course.

Thank you again. I'm a little slow at times. :)

Namaste,

~porcelaine



.'Tis an enjoyable discussion you have been having and one I have followed from afar although enjoying every nuance and exclamation. My reason for so rudely interrupting the flow, is the section I quoted. This rings many bells with me and has been the bases of many discussions in other places..

The possibility of broaching the pure is in effect an act of war and as such, even with no casualties, is the loss of innocence which becomes the first casualty of war. I perhaps should clarify that war dioes not ned to be the noisy, dirty destructive and bloody affair depicted on many TV news casts, but even a sophisticated move of covert agression in potder to gain some advantage (such as a business take over or a "Bloodless Coupe" (Coup d'état ) in political circles are both acts of war of another kind but just as destructive or deadly....

Just my thoughts no more. no less.....




BitaTruble -> RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. (3/24/2011 12:05:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida


I was in the process of rebuilding and did not want to start again. But sometimes opportunities come before we think we're ready. The thing is, some of the things I thought I had resolved internally re-introduced themselves in the context of a relationship. That was something I did not see coming...silly me.





Have I told you lately that I love you?

~hugs~


quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear


The possibility of broaching the pure is in effect an act of war and as such, even with no casualties, is the loss of innocence which becomes the first casualty of war.


This gave me a lump in my throat.

I'd like to add though, it's no bad thing to be tough in reality and what's lost pays you in other ways if you let it. I have a preference as I am sure most do .. and my preference is to play out the hand which I've been dealt mostly because I rather like the person that I've become and I attribute that to the roads I've traveled in my life both good and bad. I would like to add that at this point in my life with so much shoe leather left behind me, it would be .. difficult to humiliate me now in such a way as I would become damaged.. mostly what I get is a whole lotta fun and laughter from doing some things that might not be all that respectable in other circles. [8D] There was a time though...




NuevaVida -> RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. (3/24/2011 7:57:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble



Have I told you lately that I love you?

~hugs~



Not nearly enough!!!  I love you too. :)




xssve -> RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. (3/24/2011 8:07:04 AM)

It's a complicated and highly personal subject, I'm not going to address the subjective experiences presented, but try to provide an objective overview.

On the plus side, the female sexual act is one that is largely passive, there are indications that women have evolved to some extent to become sexually aroused by male sexual aggression, including rape, possibly for simple survival - you have to remember warfare throughout the centuries followed a particular pattern: kill all the men and rape all the women, and from a purely biological standpoint, it's probably better to be alive and pregnant than dead, lubrication prevents injury, enthusiasm evokes sympathy.

Anyway, humiliation and objectification is an extension of that, it's taking advantage of a particular trait to enhance sexual gratification - submissiveness itself is a trait evolved to prevent violence, i.e., in most mammal species, staring an Alpha male directly in the eye is the fastest way to a physical confrontation, you don't want to do that to a Grizzly or a Tiger, or a Silverback, for example, it serves as a sort of social lubricant, otherwise we'd waste all our time fighting, and the injury rate would be detrimental to group fitness when it comes to all the other stuff you have to do to survive and thrive, and like most things, nature furnishes rewards for behaviors that enhance fitness, in this case, subspace, a form of erotoleptic ecstaticism.

And yes, that can be addictive, but we've been down that road, we all have to choose what gratifies us, we're all "addicted" to food and air for example, the rest is what makes your motor run: money, shoes, whatever, this is just one among a number of options, many people are boredom addicted, can't stand any sort of excitement, others of course, just the opposite, they require a certain level sensation and stimulus to feel alive.

Clearly, given our human capacity for abstraction, we abstract these sexually agressive behaviors as well: we're capable of stepping back and viewing the scene objectively - that's why it's rape play, objectification play, humiliation play, etc. - it evokes the emotional response, which can be quite profound, without having to deal with the long term consequences - and that's the downside: loss of identity can be vary stressful.

These are things that all potentially involve violation and loss of identity: just as rape is a physical violation of ones physical body, humiliation and objectification is a violation of ones psychological self - that stress can cause all kinds of physiological problems, depressed cognitive and immune system development, etc., some people simply lose the will to live under those conditions in which questions of self-identification are non-trivial.

That's what Dr. Laura failed to comprehend, the "N word" isn't just a word, with a particular, unchanging meaning: it means one thing when a Black comic uses it, it means something entirely different when Dr. Laura says it - in large part, it's a question self identification, how you feel about yourself, and identity projection: what other people say you are, and that's where the violation comes in, when a particular identity is being projected onto you that is at odds with your self identity - the degree of cognitive dissonance involved there is what makes the difference between laughing it off and getting your ass kicked, if you happen to call somebody the "N" word, or a slut, or whatever - these aren't just words, they signify entire realms of complex interpersonal interaction.

It's much the same difference as between jumping off an airplane with full understanding of the potential consequences and taking precautions against them, and getting tossed off without warning.

Intent is huge part of it, and even women into objectification and humiliation react very negatively to random strangers attempting to objectify them, there is an interpersonal connection that has to made there first, in order for it to have the desired effect: the target has to be receptive to the dynamic, the initiator has to be able to transmit the proper sympathy/empathy, or the whole thing is going to go South, fast, it's no different that allowing you to violate her personal space with your penis, everybody has their standards - if you don't have some idea what they are, you might both end up miserable - a relationship is communication, on both verbal and non-verbal levels - otherwise you just have two animals butting heads.




porcelaine -> RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. (3/24/2011 8:14:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

.'Tis an enjoyable discussion you have been having and one I have followed from afar although enjoying every nuance and exclamation. My reason for so rudely interrupting the flow, is the section I quoted. This rings many bells with me and has been the bases of many discussions in other places..


Thank you for the compliment. :)

quote:

The possibility of broaching the pure is in effect an act of war and as such, even with no casualties, is the loss of innocence which becomes the first casualty of war.


It is inevitable that the deflowering will entail some elements that may be uncomfortable. Violation comes in many shades and I've been on the unpleasant side in the past, but that was remedied for the most part. My question to Marc was to ascertain ones ability to alleviate the theatrical presence from the act without getting to the point of full on destruction. This extends beyond the subject matter being discussed and broaches something more involved that he pinpointed in an earlier post. In regard to innocence, it's impossible to do these things and remain completely unchanged.

Namaste,

~porcelaine




xssve -> RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. (3/24/2011 8:19:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida


I was in the process of rebuilding and did not want to start again. But sometimes opportunities come before we think we're ready. The thing is, some of the things I thought I had resolved internally re-introduced themselves in the context of a relationship. That was something I did not see coming...silly me.





Have I told you lately that I love you?

~hugs~


quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear


The possibility of broaching the pure is in effect an act of war and as such, even with no casualties, is the loss of innocence which becomes the first casualty of war.


This gave me a lump in my throat.

I'd like to add though, it's no bad thing to be tough in reality and what's lost pays you in other ways if you let it. I have a preference as I am sure most do .. and my preference is to play out the hand which I've been dealt mostly because I rather like the person that I've become and I attribute that to the roads I've traveled in my life both good and bad. I would like to add that at this point in my life with so much shoe leather left behind me, it would be .. difficult to humiliate me now in such a way as I would become damaged.. mostly what I get is a whole lotta fun and laughter from doing some things that might not be all that respectable in other circles. [8D] There was a time though...
Innocence in some respects, is indistinguishable form ignorance - the act of losing innocence is the act of gaining experience - the "damage" here is largely a question of whether that experience leaves you bitter and dysfunctional or wiser and more resilient.




xssve -> RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. (3/24/2011 8:43:47 AM)

Listen to this woman objectify herself (mildly) - is she faking or not? Does it matter? i.e., In fact, the whole scene is intended to objectify the male viewer, deliberately, and in some sense, the whole business is a process of getting past the identity issue, and it's attendant issues of self consciousness and inhibition - mistrust essentially - it's an act of vulnerability to display the more private sides of your personality.

Presumably, it's working here, nobody appears to be suffering anyway.

No harm, no foul, essentially, w/regard to the question posed in the OP, when and where it becomes harmful is going to be different for everybody, there is no easy way to establish formal rules for process, there is only formal assessment of the result, and that depends much on whether you internalize abstract external assessments and how.

The statistics indicate that depression rates for your average uncontroversial housewife are much higher than for your average kinky bitch, whatever their fetish/s, and that has to mean something - being a "nice girl" is a form of objectification too.




IronBear -> RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. (3/24/2011 9:25:38 AM)

Do I detect a touch of cynicism ? Seemms to be something which happens if you hang around CM too much.. 




porcelaine -> RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. (3/24/2011 9:33:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

No harm, no foul, essentially, w/regard to the question posed in the OP, when and where it becomes harmful is going to be different for everybody, there is no easy way to establish formal rules for process, there is only formal assessment of the result, and that depends much on whether you internalize abstract external assessments and how.


I disagree with your assertion concerning formal processes. I liken it to an unfortunate episode of pin the tail on the donkey with an unsuspecting victim. I prefer a man that has a definitive method to his madness rather than one that uses my ass as a dartboard.

Namaste,

~porcelaine




NuevaVida -> RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. (3/24/2011 11:21:50 AM)

Oh I dunno, porcelaine, "Toss the Dart at my Ass" could be kinda fun...heh.

What I disagree with is the assumption that degradation and/or humiliation is sexual. It *can* be, but is not necessarily so. Some of what I experienced had nothing sexual about it - in its application or results.




porcelaine -> RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. (3/24/2011 11:33:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

Oh I dunno, porcelaine, "Toss the Dart at my Ass" could be kinda fun...heh.

What I disagree with is the assumption that degradation and/or humiliation is sexual. It *can* be, but is not necessarily so. Some of what I experienced had nothing sexual about it - in its application or results.


You know I tried to maintain my innocence on that one. Tattletale! [:D]

I concur. The mental and emotional imprints were very difficult to overcome. And there are traces that remain that I cannot exorcise on my lonesome. But the physical and sexual aspects were a little easier due to detachment. However, that didn't always work out as planned. Sometimes it made the situation much worse.

Namaste,

~porcelaine




crazyml -> RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. (3/24/2011 2:09:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

He doesn't think I am a horrible person. Humiliation “does it” for me because he is so proud when I show him how low I will go for him.


Now this is part of how I feel about it




catize -> RE: Humiliation - I really don't understand it. (3/24/2011 3:13:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml


quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

He doesn't think I am a horrible person. Humiliation “does it” for me because he is so proud when I show him how low I will go for him.


Now this is part of how I feel about it

And what are the other parts, please?[:D]




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