RE: I don't know what I am

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stellauk -> RE: I don't know what I am (3/15/2011 9:56:55 PM)
Who do you feel yourself to be? Who do you best function as? Please don't tell me 'nothing'. It's not an acceptable answer. You are not a 'nothing', you are a human being, a 'someone'. Who? Or better still who do you feel yourself to be right now? Where is the starting point? I'm probably similar to you, I'm a genetic mosaic type of transgendered woman, a sort of Ford Edsel of the human race, but this doesn't matter. All that matters is that I'm female, it's me, it's how I think, how I feel, how I relate to the world, and everything else. Has it always been this way? No it hasn't. All I have known all along is that I am different. But my own definition of myself as changed with my self-awareness and self-discovery. I thought I was a boy once, spent some years thinking I was a man who had a penchant for crossdressing, I thought of myself as a transvestite, bi-gendered, a two-spirit, a male to female transsexual.. All through this period I was focussed on myself, it became an obsession, and it stopped when I met a Polish psychologist whilst i was living there who was the spitting image of Albert Einstein. He advised me one thing, and I will always remember it - stop building invisible prisons around yourself. This led me to accept myself as female and to stop trying to pigeonhole myself and trying to fit in with everyone else around me. It's a waste of time. There's only one way that you can fit in, and that is by being who you honestly feel yourself to be and accepting yourself as such. It doesn't matter if you wake up one morning and discover you were wrong, because you can always discover, always learn and always change your way of thinking. This is the great thing about having a mind - you get to control it. This is what I assume everybody else does, irrespective of what sex and gender they are. Gender isn't fixed, it's fluid, and it's a far more complicated thing than XX and XY. But you are also not just defined by the letters 'X' and 'Y' you are also an individual. This means you get to define yourself and everybody else has to go along with that. I would suggest that you look for an orientation point, and start there. Then when you've accepted yourself for who you are and feel yourself to be, everyone else will accept you too. Well, maybe not everybody. But does that really matter?

GreedyTop -> RE: I don't know what I am (3/15/2011 11:22:26 PM)
~fr~ Taken from my profile: I'm not a switch. I'm not a dominant, nor am I a submissive. I am ME. Nothing more, or less. I do not define myself by labels that have been determined by others. I am not interested in trying to cram myself into a LABEL. I am who I am, I have no problem facing the woman in the mirror. ------------------------------------- I dont know if it helps you, MG, but I hope so...

Wheldrake -> RE: I don't know what I am (3/16/2011 1:07:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 Wow, that got me to thinking LnT. I'm genetically male and don't really have any gender confusion. but then again, I don't know that I have a strong image of "male behavior" or "female behavior". I tend to think in terms of "human behavior". There are certainly broad and rampant parts of my personality that are usually associated with females. Carol and I have remarked on them many a time. I just don't think it ever occurred to me to question... or even value... my "masculinity". I have no idea what that word means beyond something in a Rambo movie. This is almost exactly where I'm at, except maybe for the "broad and rampant" part. I have a male body and, well, a human mind. Psychology tells us that male and female minds aren't too different anyway, at least in most respects, so it's hard for me to even imagine what it would be like to have a "mental sex" (or gender, if you prefer) that was demonstrably either identical or opposite to my biological sex. Of course, I'm aware that some people do feel strongly cisgendered, or transgendered, or genderqueer, and I have no problem accepting people who fall into any of these categories. I just find the distinctions between them difficult to fully understand.

hausboy -> RE: I don't know what I am (3/16/2011 3:26:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wheldrake This is almost exactly where I'm at, except maybe for the "broad and rampant" part. I have a male body and, well, a human mind. Psychology tells us that male and female minds aren't too different anyway, at least in most respects, so it's hard for me to even imagine what it would be like to have a "mental sex" (or gender, if you prefer) that was demonstrably either identical or opposite to my biological sex. Of course, I'm aware that some people do feel strongly cisgendered, or transgendered, or genderqueer, and I have no problem accepting people who fall into any of these categories. I just find the distinctions between them difficult to fully understand. Hi Wheldrake I'm not so sure I agree with the psychologists on this one. It does not qualify as scientific research, so I don't put it under any pretenses--but I have met with, interviewed (for a book) and outreached to literally over a thousand different people, who identified as some variety of Female-to-Male transgendered, in every stage of transition. I've also personally witnessed over a hundred guys transition from female-to-male through hormones, and as a small circle of people--we often supported each other and compared "notes." Many of us experienced some very curious things once we started hormones, and it made me realize that while our physical bodies and chemistry aren't all that dramatically different, the way that our brains function on hormones, did. To help us address anything issues we thought could arise, my spouse and I began seeing a therapist as a couple, even though we never fought, had lots of sex, and were happy together. We used to finish each others sentences--virtually read one another's mind. After a few weeks on hormones, the basic exercise of "repeat back what you heard your spouse say" was astonishing--she accused me of lacing everything I said with intonation. I seemed to have a complete lack of ability of understanding what she said vs what she meant. The therapist said we went from a very communicative, "processing" lesbian couple to a very typical, inept poorly communicating heterosexual couple. It offended us both--until we realized that the things coming out of our mouths suddenly sounded a lot like every stereotypical straight couple we knew. Men and women do communicate differently. We had to learn this the hard way, and had to learn how to talk to each other all over again. (we did stay together 7 years after my transition) My spacial relations changed--suddenly it was easier to put together IKEA furniture, read a map, and do things that once seemed very challenging. Schematics made sense. My incredible sense of smell lessened---I went from having a nose like a dog and being able to smell things blocks away...to not being able to smell something virtually right under my nose. My pain tolerance dropped considerably, and I lost my "taste" for certain types of pain play. Personal space changed--my perception of it and my tolerance for a lack thereof... My spouse noticed that I drove differently (I passed cars more often...drove faster). And the old joke is true--I didn't stop for directions anymore--I somehow was convinced and overconfident that "I know where I 'm going!" First time I caught myself saying that, it kinda freaked me out. I found myself more assertive, unable to cry the way I used to, and things that used to bother me, anger me, upset me or make me cry, now seemed to roll off my back. I found my own emotions going from 3-dimensional to 2-Dimensional. Therapy exercises--when asked "what are you feeling right now?" Before, I would go on for 20 minutes about everything that I felt. On hormones? The answer was often one of the following: "Hungry. Horny. Bored." I found myself able to do something without effort that I could once only do with heavy meditation-- think about nothing. The written porn/erotica that I had adored reading and re-reading for so many years now did little for me--I found myself craving visual porn--something that previously held no interest. Things that had nothing to do with sex would make me horny. I found breasts far more distracting at work. "Look at her eyes....up there....look at her eyes..." became a silent mantra at work, and far more difficult than it had ever been before. Most of these changes I didn't even realize--they were pointed out to me by friends and family who knew me well, and saw the differences day by day. I never believed it before but now I do--I do believe the whole men are from mars, women from venus....the only difference, is the ability to travel to both planets.

Wheldrake -> RE: I don't know what I am (3/18/2011 1:01:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hausboy I've also personally witnessed over a hundred guys transition from female-to-male through hormones, and as a small circle of people--we often supported each other and compared "notes." Many of us experienced some very curious things once we started hormones, and it made me realize that while our physical bodies and chemistry aren't all that dramatically different, the way that our brains function on hormones, did. Interesting. It's possible that I just haven't been reading about the right psychological studies, or that the psychologists find it hard to measure gender differences like the ones you mentioned in your post. However, would you agree that it's also possible that at least some of the changes you noticed after you started your hormones might have resulted from your own expectations? After all, it sounds (and forgive me if I'm wrong here) like you thought quite hard about gender issues for years before you started your transition. Could you have thought to yourself at some level, "Well, I'm on male hormones now, so putting together that table from IKEA should be a snap?" That's a bit of caricature, obviously, but hopefully you can see what I mean. Formal psychology aside, the problem I have with Mars/Venus accounts of human behaviour is that I encounter obvious exceptions all the time. Women who do mental rotations brilliantly, men who go on and on about their feelings, or whatever. Personally, I don't tend to talk about my feelings very much, but when I want to discuss them I can usually articulate them fairly clearly and in some detail. I have no problem with maps and other diagrams, and hate asking directions, but in general my spatial skills are quite poor. I can enjoy pornographic images or video clips for a quick fix, but if I have time I really prefer to read (or write) an erotic story. I'm a very cautious driver, and I don't even know what it would mean to lace things with intonation. I've actually attempted meditation in the past, but I couldn't think about nothing to save my life. So am I from Mars or Venus? Maybe Pluto? I just don't worry about it. One question, and feel free to tell me to fuck off if I'm getting too personal. You describe adopting a lot of stereotypical male behaviours after you started your hormones, but it sounds from your other posts in this thread like you had an intermittent sense of being inwardly male for a long time before that. Prior to the hormones, what was it about your inner life and thought that seemed so masculine?

leadership527 -> RE: I don't know what I am (3/18/2011 3:09:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wheldrake Formal psychology aside, the problem I have with Mars/Venus accounts of human behaviour is that I encounter obvious exceptions all the time. nods My thoughts exactly. I am not a big proponent of theories which are disproven by pretty much every single human I meet. Even in broad brush strokes the mars/venus stereotypes don't seem to hold a lot of water in my experience. So yeah, I'm a guy. I'm fine with aggression. I tend to have a very goal focused attitude. I'm visually stimulated sexually, etc. etc. But then again, I'm the one who's most concerned with the emotional fabric of the marriage. By far I'm the one who's most emotionally in touch in our marriage. I dislike guns, sports, and cars. I guess in the end I'm a complicated individual living in a male body and content with that.

MaxsBoy -> RE: I don't know what I am (3/18/2011 5:57:53 PM)
Puts on psychology hat There is far more variability between individuals of the same sex than there is between the two males and females as a group. But you can't discount the very real effects of certain hormones. You just can't assume that they act the same way on every person. For hausboy, going on male hormones caused him to think and act in a more stereotypically male way. For others, it might not. And as a previous poster stated, you can't discount his expectations - people tend to look for evidence to confirm what they believe, rather than looking at things from a neutral viewpoint.

hausboy -> RE: I don't know what I am (3/18/2011 8:04:22 PM)
Hi Wheldrake I do understand your point. Here's the odd thing--I always detested the traditional male stereotype--was even a separatist for a short time, basically stating that men were vile and horrid creatures, and I only wanted to be around women who were so much more evolved. I used to be very much of the "it's all social conditioning" and men act the way they do because of society. I used to tell all my friends that when I transitioned, I was going to be "a different kind of man." And I am. But I now believe quite firmly that it cannot all get pinned on society, and chemistry has just as much to "blame." I still remember the first argument I had with my ex in the car. We were driving to the eastern shore, and she asked me why I was suddenly passing cars. I thought she was kidding--I claimed that I was passing cars because they were driving so slow, and I pass cars all the time. She told me--"No....you never pass them. You'll stay behind the most slowpoke driver forever until they turn off--it has annoyed me for years but I never said anything." I told her she was wrong--but looking back now, she wasn't. It was the same with IKEA--we always were IKEA addicts. And I always enjoyed putting them together as a fun "together" project. It was maybe 6 months on hormones--we bought some type of entertainment unit--and halfway through, I realized she was staring at me. I asked her what's wrong--and she said-- "It's a bit strange to say this, but normally I'm the one who figures these out--you seem more focused." I laughed and told her she was imagining things--this was just an easy assembly--"Look, it's easy. look at the picture." But again, she was right. I do remember always having trouble looking at the images and translating that to the pieces in my hands. About a month or two later, I had a similar experience working with a piece of equipment at work. What used to be frustrating and baffling seemed more....logical? I met with a group of other FTMs once a week for dinner, and told them about what I was experiencing. Of the six guys at the table, five of them told me they had the exact same experience. The directions thing was extremely odd--I admittedly am one of those unfortunates who have never had a sense of direction. A roadtrip wasn't complete until I pulled into a gas station for directions. We made joke after joke about it. Then a vacation drive out west got us turned around. She suggested we stop for directions--which led to the infamous "I don't need to stop for directions.... I know where we're going." She asked me, point blank: "In your life, have you EVER known where you were going?" We laughed about it--took it to therapy. My therapist asked me: "So what were you thinking?" All I can tell you is that I felt like there was someone else in my head at times, convincing me that I knew how to do things that I hadn't a clue how to do. My answer was the truth "I wasn't thinking. I truly thought I knew where I was, even though a part of me must have known we were lost..." It wasn't stigma or pride that prevented me from pulling over-- I can only describe it like that scene in Men In Black--sometimes, it feels like there's this little alien inside my head, at the controls. Does it apply to all men? well, of course not. I know a woman who can rebuild car engines blindfolded and men who couldn't find their way out of a paper bag. My Dad did all the sewing, cooking and cleaning in my house--my Mom could kick anybody's ass. My friends and family were the strangest assortment of people along the gender spectrum--you couldn't even imagine! All I can tell you is that I went from a brain that had constant "chatter" to one that was finally quiet. It's a phenomenon so many of my transitioned friends have experienced that I really can't discount it. I don't really feel very in touch with my emotions like I used to--but my female friends (who don't know I'm transgendered) have said that I'm a very caring, compassionate guy who seems to understand them better than most men do. I laugh--because most of the time--they are completely baffling to me. If I could figure out what makes women tick, I likely wouldn't be single.

leadership527 -> RE: I don't know what I am (3/19/2011 11:31:04 AM)
I'm not even beginning to doubt the effects of hormones or the very real fact that for whatever reasons, my "gender confusion" hasn't resulted in outward signs which would freak others out and yours has. Our situations are not the same and I'm not trying to equate them. But still, I think there's some value in remembering that in the end, all this "masculine traits" and "feminine traits" stuff needs to be taken with about 2 dozen grains of salt. That viewpoint makes you and others like you less "weird" -- kind of like "statistical outliers rather than freaks of nature" sort of thing.

hausboy -> RE: I don't know what I am (3/19/2011 12:59:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 I'm not even beginning to doubt the effects of hormones or the very real fact that for whatever reasons, my "gender confusion" hasn't resulted in outward signs which would freak others out and yours has. Our situations are not the same and I'm not trying to equate them. But still, I think there's some value in remembering that in the end, all this "masculine traits" and "feminine traits" stuff needs to be taken with about 2 dozen grains of salt. That viewpoint makes you and others like you less "weird" -- kind of like "statistical outliers rather than freaks of nature" sort of thing. Jeff-- I do agree with your first statement--stereotypical gender traits (or at least what American society deems masculine) do not make a man or a woman. I'm not sure I understand what you mean in your second statement--could you please clarify?

leadership527 -> RE: I don't know what I am (3/19/2011 1:28:54 PM)
I can try :) My thought was that while I recognize wide stripes of traits in me that are normally associated with feminine and I'm a male, those things in me have not resulted in a need to outwardly portray myself in any way which would set off everyone else's star-bellied-sneech detectors. So while I can offer some support with the statement "We all have masculine and feminine", the particular expression of my feminine traits doesn't place me in a situation wherein society is judging me. That lack of "being an outcast" is going to mean that my ability to empathize with the OP's situation can only ever be limited. For the entire second paragraph, I was saying that if one draws hard male/female boundaries in one's head, then anyone who doesn't conform is "a freak". If, on the other hand, one looks at it more as a continuum or a hodge-podge of this and that, then deviations become less problematic because there is room in the model for more than simply "male" and "female". ~Jeff

DesFIP -> RE: I don't know what I am (3/19/2011 1:50:52 PM)
I wouldn't even think of it as outliers, simply as a larger percentage of men seem to have an inner compass in their heads while a larger percentage of women don't. Does that mean that a significant minority of women do know where they're going without needing a GPS? Yes, but a majority of men do versus a minority of women. And yes, I can get lost in a closet as the saying goes. I got lost in my backyard once, admittedly it's above 25 acres, but still. I was going to say that I don't think I have a female brain but on reflection, it's these small things that determine mainly female traits vs mainly male traits. And yes, I have a lot of the mainly female traits. But since this is all I've ever known, I universalize from my experience. Re Stella's comment that gender isn't fixed, it's fluid. It may seem that way to her because she's universalizing from her experience, but from mine it's the other way around. It would be more correct to say that for some people gender, like sexuality, is fluid but for others they are fixed.

hausboy -> RE: I don't know what I am (3/19/2011 7:52:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 I can try :) My thought was that while I recognize wide stripes of traits in me that are normally associated with feminine and I'm a male, those things in me have not resulted in a need to outwardly portray myself in any way which would set off everyone else's star-bellied-sneech detectors. So while I can offer some support with the statement "We all have masculine and feminine", the particular expression of my feminine traits doesn't place me in a situation wherein society is judging me. That lack of "being an outcast" is going to mean that my ability to empathize with the OP's situation can only ever be limited. For the entire second paragraph, I was saying that if one draws hard male/female boundaries in one's head, then anyone who doesn't conform is "a freak". If, on the other hand, one looks at it more as a continuum or a hodge-podge of this and that, then deviations become less problematic because there is room in the model for more than simply "male" and "female". ~Jeff Ah! okay, thanks for that....understood....and agree. I would never say "Oh! I can't do that...say that....be that...because I'm a guy...." I do what feels right....and natural to me. If anything, I'm more in touch with the "female" side of my self now than ever before. Prior to transitioning, I often attempted to completely shut off that part of my brain. (didn't go so well.) I was very masculine as a small child, long before I even knew what the word meant....so me being masculine now is not some kind of act. I have male friends who are very effeminate-- that does not make them any less male to me.

Herbabygirl -> RE: I don't know what I am (3/20/2011 2:13:29 AM)
You are definitely not alone. I fee the exact same way some days. There has always been a part of me that feels I shield have been born a boy. Like you I don't want to go get surgery or take hormones, but a lot of the time I feel like a guy trapped in a girls body. Its hard and I am not really sure how to help or comfort you, but you're not alone.

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