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RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. - 3/19/2011 5:51:11 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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WHAT???!!?!??

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RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. - 3/19/2011 5:55:27 PM

flcouple2009

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There's the little puddy tat.

Did you finally catch up with the fact that while you were ranting about Obama doing nothing while France and the UK were delivering planes, that our Navy was in actual fact delivering missiles?

You seem to be late and out of the loop on everything.

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RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. - 3/19/2011 6:01:42 PM

DarkSteven

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The surprise to me is that the Italians are cooperating as well. Italy's been close to Libya.

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RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. - 3/19/2011 6:04:00 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

The surprise to me is that the Italians are cooperating as well. Italy's been close to Libya.

Good point. I hadn't thought of that. Maybe they see the writing on the wall and want to ensure that they're still close to Libya after this is all over.

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RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. - 3/19/2011 6:04:04 PM

Sanity

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Italy was Libyas colonial ruler at one point

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RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. - 3/19/2011 6:06:27 PM

slvemike4u

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Holy Batshit robin,a factual post from Sanity !!!!!!

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RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. - 3/19/2011 6:08:17 PM

Sanity

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Its called a contrary opinion, panda.

They exist.

Grow up some and just try to deal with it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

WHAT???!!?!??

< Message edited by Sanity -- 3/19/2011 6:23:28 PM >

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RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. - 3/19/2011 6:16:50 PM

outhere69

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That was done long before he ran for office - remember how the war was supposed to last 120 days and would pay for itself through Iraq's oil sales? That made a hell of a good impression. Just fuel for the folks that believed the only interest we had was for their oil.

Then there's the guy we put in office in Iran...who happened to be overthrown. And we funded Saddam to keep Iran in check. This country's got a long, long history of interference with other nations. I'm with hlen with this one.

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RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. - 3/19/2011 6:21:32 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

Unfortunately, one mad dog at a time, tweakabelle!

That sounds sensible to me. Let's deal with them one at a time.

But there's nothing to stop us reflecting on the whole problem and then approaching it systematically and consistently for once, is there?

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RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. - 3/19/2011 6:41:00 PM

eihwaz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChiDS
[...] Not the people, like it happened in Egypt.

With no doubt a lot of help via the leverage the US has over the Egyptian military.

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RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. - 3/19/2011 7:00:47 PM

Sanity

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The latest from Drudge:

MARCH 19, 2011
OBAMA: 'Today we are part of a broad coalition. We are answering the calls of a threatened people. And we are acting in the interests of the United States and the world'...

MARCH 19, 2003
BUSH: 'American and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm Iraq, to free its people and to defend the world from grave danger'...

Farrakhan to Obama: 'Be Careful, Brother. Who The Hell Do You Think You Are?'

Anti-war protesters arrested near White House...

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RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. - 3/19/2011 7:07:09 PM

Politesub53

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Tweaks, the following article from the BBC sums up why the west is taking the stance it has in the ME. I`m not saying its right but it is understandable.

I am hoping both Obama and Cameron are at least speaking up on the supression of the protests, via diplomatic chanels.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12792637

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RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. - 3/19/2011 8:14:36 PM

outhere69

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Obama's not advocating a land invasion. Hell, we face more threat from Iran than we did from Iraq. Saddam did a great job convincing folks he was a badass (which helped keep other ME countries from whupping his ass.)

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RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. - 3/19/2011 8:57:34 PM

Hippiekinkster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Well, so far the US involvement is limited to missiles fired from ships. The planes are supplied from other nations. And Obama has pledged to not put in ground troops. HE's limiting the US involvement, and using other nations heavily.

Yeah, well, maybe give this post by a kinkster on another site some thought:

"So far this afternoon, the US has fired 112 Cruise missiles at a cost of roughly $569,000 each, not counting cost of shipping, handling, fuel and FedEx surcharges for overnight delivery. So, that's roughly $63.7 million spent so far this afternoon. It would have been cheaper to just hire Libya's air defense guys to shoot down their own planes.

To give some perspective on that number, the shortfall for the Dallas Texas school system next year is estimated at $64 million, which is predicted to lead to 3,000 teachers being laid off. So one afternoon's fireworks in Libya is about the same price as one year of keeping 3,000 teachers employed, along with their car mechanics, grocery clerks, and pizza delivery boys.

There is no money to pay for this. We can't afford it. Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, Progressives, Tea Party folks, Anarcho-Syndicalist Collectivists and "Other" are nearly universally agreed that the United States is deep in debt and going steadily deeper. To suggest that the $63.7 million we just blew up this afternoon is "already paid for" is a tad facetious, at best.

It genuinely astounds me that folks who would try to outlaw bacon if Obama ordered a BLT for lunch are perfectly OK with him plunging us into another expensive, pointless, open-ended war with no clear benefit to the United States, and without Congressional authorization to do so."

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RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. - 3/19/2011 10:10:09 PM

hlen5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

Egypt isn't democratic yet.

Egypt isn't anything yet. They're still trying to figure out where to go. They haven't even addressed how to get there.

Exactly, it's not time to break out the champagne yet.

I quoted myself in order to correct champagne vs Champaign (a city in IL).

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RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. - 3/20/2011 1:49:27 AM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Tweaks, the following article from the BBC sums up why the west is taking the stance it has in the ME. I`m not saying its right but it is understandable.

I am hoping both Obama and Cameron are at least speaking up on the supression of the protests, via diplomatic chanels.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12792637

Thanks for the link PoliteSub!

The point I was trying to develop was that we shouldn't get too carried away with feeling how wonderful the West is by helping out in Libya. Whilst I support the intervention, the reasons for it are far from altruistic. The article is making that point, it seems to me, in a far more direct way.

We're still supporting autocrats who willingly butcher their own citizens to cling to power in Bahrain and Yemen, while trying to knock off Ghadaffi for doing exactly the same. Western policies in the region seem characterised by venality, hypocrisy, greed and expedience. Oil, arms sales and Israel are the main priorities.

This region-wide crisis offers a chance to re-frame those policies towards promoting freedom and the human rights of the area's peoples. This is the best route, I feel, to peace stability and prosperity for the region. As the autocrats are toppled one by one, we should seize the opportunity. We might not get another chance.

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RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. - 3/20/2011 2:02:05 AM

Termyn8or

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"The only thing that will prevent the removal of Qaddafi is if the people of Libya choose to do nothing."

Like Saddam in Iraq ? He's a fucking goner no matter what the people say. If Chavez doesn't watch his step he might be next. Oh wait, he already was. What if those people actually support him like in Venezuela. You sure you are getting the whole story ?

I am not, and I don't get on bandwagons.

T^T

BTW, congrats on spelling Momar's last name, it comes closer than most I've seen lately.

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RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. - 3/20/2011 3:36:43 AM

Edwynn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

The latest from Drudge:

MARCH 19, 2011
OBAMA: 'Today we are part of a broad coalition. We are answering the calls of a threatened people. And we are acting in the interests of the United States and the world'...

MARCH 19, 2003
BUSH: 'American and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm Iraq, to free its people and to defend the world from grave danger'...

Farrakhan to Obama: 'Be Careful, Brother. Who The Hell Do You Think You Are?'

Anti-war protesters arrested near White House...

Excellent analysis regarding the comparison of an orange to an apple.

The US didn't sell enough canisters of anthrax to G'daffi to attempt to accuse him thereby, so we have to actually think about it this go-round. No firing of many experienced old guard generals upon coming into office, leaving only complacent yes men thereafter; no filtering of intelligence reports to dig out the 5 % that said what the VP and Defense Secretary wanted to hear, in contrivance to the other 95% that said Sadaam and army were completely impotent and had no desire to bomb anybody unless themselves attacked; no Karl Rove to intentionally blow the cover on an ongoing deep cover intelligence operation dealing directly with potential domestic terrorism because the manager (Valerie Plame) of that operation's husband (foreign threat expert Joe Wilson) called BS on administration's claim of Iraqi capacity to do anything more than figure out the schedule of the no-fly-zone jets so they knew when it was safe to go outside for a pee ...

(BTW, not only was Karl Rove not hung in public (as would befit that level of treason) for being the traitor that he is, he is rather walking free and bragging about it as a regular guest on your favorite network)

It's just amazing the parallels here, no?

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 3/20/2011 3:48:14 AM >

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RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. - 3/20/2011 4:46:51 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Thanks for the link PoliteSub!

The point I was trying to develop was that we shouldn't get too carried away with feeling how wonderful the West is by helping out in Libya. Whilst I support the intervention, the reasons for it are far from altruistic. The article is making that point, it seems to me, in a far more direct way.

I cant agree with you here Tweaks. The west has more to gain, financially, by leaving Gaddafi in power. The reason for the intervention is clear, it is too prevent him carrying out the genocide he has promised. Oil wise, Libya isnt a big producer, in the scheme of things. I also suspect if the Saudi`s and Bahrain were intent on killing three quarters of a million people, the west would be forced to intervene there.

Im also not sure it is fair to blame everything on colonial rule, lets not forget the Arabs and Muslims ruled the area that is Libya for far longer than the Italians did.

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RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. - 3/20/2011 6:02:36 AM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Thanks for the link PoliteSub!

The point I was trying to develop was that we shouldn't get too carried away with feeling how wonderful the West is by helping out in Libya. Whilst I support the intervention, the reasons for it are far from altruistic. The article is making that point, it seems to me, in a far more direct way.

I cant agree with you here Tweaks. The west has more to gain, financially, by leaving Gaddafi in power. The reason for the intervention is clear, it is too prevent him carrying out the genocide he has promised. Oil wise, Libya isnt a big producer, in the scheme of things. I also suspect if the Saudi`s and Bahrain were intent on killing three quarters of a million people, the west would be forced to intervene there.

Im also not sure it is fair to blame everything on colonial rule, lets not forget the Arabs and Muslims ruled the area that is Libya for far longer than the Italians did.

I'm not sure how any of that is suggested by my post.

I described the motivation for Libyan intervention as "less than altruistic". The lack of altruism seems fairly obvious to me because of the failure to intervene in Yemen or Bahrain where many similar circumstances apply. The UAE, part of the anti-Ghaddafi effort, is heavily implicated in repression in Bahrain. Large scale killings haven't proved an impediment in the past eg Western support for Saddam Hussein in the Iran-Iraq war, or silence on his gassing the Kurds.

I agree with the assessment in the article you linked that the key reason for this failure to intervene is strategic. Bahrain and Yemen are of much more importance in the West's strategic goals of opposing Iran and Al Quada. Hence the double standard. Surely that is evidence to support my position.

Nor am I blaming "everything on colonial rule". Elsewhere I have noted the many flaws in many Arab societies. I am blaming the West for the West's current policies towards the region (driven by "oil, arms sales and Israel") which I am asserting require radical re-shaping to reflect the needs and aspirations of the peoples of the region.

I hope this clarifies my position for you.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/20/2011 6:11:03 AM >

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