RE: Taking the time necessary to be right.

RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion

Message

hlen5 -> RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. (3/20/2011 6:41:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: hlen5 Unfortunately, one mad dog at a time, tweakabelle! That sounds sensible to me. Let's deal with them one at a time. But there's nothing to stop us reflecting on the whole problem and then approaching it systematically and consistently for once, is there? Nope, nothing wrong with a long term consistent strategy (particularly one that truly embodies what we say we believe in)!

rulemylife -> RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. (3/20/2011 6:42:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hlen5 Egypt isn't democratic yet. I see nothing wrong with the US NOT storming in on our own. Without going into world cop mode, it made others take the opportunity to step up. Arab League approval, French planes bombing air defenses. My ONLY regret with a truly willing coalition is it took sooooo loooong to come together. Let's see: - No US troop involvement, - No way for the Middle East to call this a Christian - Muslim crusade, - True coaliton working TOGETHER to let the Libyans free themselves, - Libyans will get to chart their own course (and guess what, the West might not like that course !) - Operations costs not solely borne by the US. What is wrong with this picture? Nothing. Yes, it's all wonderful. All these happy comments being made here are going to go down the tubes once reality sets in. I don't have a crystal ball but my prediction is we have just involved ourselves in yet another long, drawn-out war.

hlen5 -> RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. (3/20/2011 7:04:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle ........ The lack of altruism seems fairly obvious to me because of the failure to intervene in Yemen or Bahrain where many similar circumstances apply. Hence the double standard. Surely that is evidence to support my position. ...............Elsewhere I have noted the many flaws in many Arab societies. I am blaming the West for the West's current policies towards the region (driven by "oil, arms sales and Israel") which I am asserting require radical re-shaping to reflect the needs and aspirations of the peoples of the region. I hope this clarifies my position for you. We picked up the Libyan gauntlet because Qadhaffi said "House to house and rivers of blood". He was and had been fulfilling that statement. He was marching in tanks and planes towards his fellow countrymen armed with rocks and sticks. This was triage. We can't AFFORD to and can not BE everywhere at once. As before, I agree it would be great to be consistent in our support for human rights. You are assessing, correctly I think, past performance in our foreign policies. Maybe this is a new chapter for the US. EFTypos

hlen5 -> RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. (3/20/2011 7:09:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife ..................Yes, it's all wonderful. All these happy comments being made here are going to go down the tubes once reality sets in. I don't have a crystal ball but my prediction is we have just involved ourselves in yet another long, drawn-out war. You might be right. The statements I made were tidy and clinical. War is messy and bloody and there are always unintended consequences. I'm sure the Libyan rebels would agree. However, they are still breathing for now.

Aylee -> RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. (3/20/2011 7:35:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hlen5 We picked up the Libyan gauntlet because Qadhaffi said "House to house and rivers of blood". He was and had been fulfilling that statement. He was marching in tanks and planes towards his fellow countrymen armed with rocks and sticks. Really? And here I thought that we were interfering in a Civil War because we were requested to by those being killed.

hlen5 -> RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. (3/20/2011 7:54:00 AM)
I was answering Tweakabelle's question of why there and not elsewhere. I wasn't trying to say we the US autocratically decided Qadhaffi had to go. Having Libyans specifically ASK for help was crucial.

Aylee -> RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. (3/20/2011 8:08:56 AM)
Oh, okay. [:)]

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. (3/20/2011 9:37:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: hlen5 Egypt isn't democratic yet. I see nothing wrong with the US NOT storming in on our own. Without going into world cop mode, it made others take the opportunity to step up. Arab League approval, French planes bombing air defenses. My ONLY regret with a truly willing coalition is it took sooooo loooong to come together. Let's see: - No US troop involvement, - No way for the Middle East to call this a Christian - Muslim crusade, - True coaliton working TOGETHER to let the Libyans free themselves, - Libyans will get to chart their own course (and guess what, the West might not like that course !) - Operations costs not solely borne by the US. What is wrong with this picture? Nothing. Yes, it's all wonderful. All these happy comments being made here are going to go down the tubes once reality sets in. I don't have a crystal ball but my prediction is we have just involved ourselves in yet another long, drawn-out war. I'm going to repost this because I think it really is something that needs to be thought about. quote: "So far this afternoon, the US has fired 112 Cruise missiles at a cost of roughly $569,000 each, not counting cost of shipping, handling, fuel and FedEx surcharges for overnight delivery. So, that's roughly $63.7 million spent so far this afternoon. It would have been cheaper to just hire Libya's air defense guys to shoot down their own planes. To give some perspective on that number, the shortfall for the Dallas Texas school system next year is estimated at $64 million, which is predicted to lead to 3,000 teachers being laid off. So one afternoon's fireworks in Libya is about the same price as one year of keeping 3,000 teachers employed, along with their car mechanics, grocery clerks, and pizza delivery boys. There is no money to pay for this. We can't afford it. Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, Progressives, Tea Party folks, Anarcho-Syndicalist Collectivists and "Other" are nearly universally agreed that the United States is deep in debt and going steadily deeper. To suggest that the $63.7 million we just blew up this afternoon is "already paid for" is a tad facetious, at best. It genuinely astounds me that folks who would try to outlaw bacon if Obama ordered a BLT for lunch are perfectly OK with him plunging us into another expensive, pointless, open-ended war with no clear benefit to the United States, and without Congressional authorization to do so." How is it we can afford war but can't even fix a bridge, or keep a teacher teaching, or give an annual checkup to an impoverished senior?

tazzygirl -> RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. (3/20/2011 9:40:20 PM)
quote: How is it we can afford war but can't even fix a bridge, or keep a teacher teaching, or give an annual checkup to an impoverished senior? QFT

tweakabelle -> RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. (3/20/2011 10:29:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hlen5 This was triage. We can't AFFORD to and can not BE everywhere at once. Yes! I agree with you. It's ridiculous to expect the US to wave a magic wand and put everything right everywhere at once. Please don't think that I am suggesting that. When I refer to the West, I mean a lot more than the US alone. Europe Australia and others are implicated. quote: As before, I agree it would be great to be consistent in our support for human rights. You are assessing, correctly I think, past performance in our foreign policies. Maybe this is a new chapter for the US. Again I share your hopes. I do hope the failed policies of the past are abandoned forever. To me, it seems the first steps in replacing those failed policies is an incisive analysis of the reasons for their failure, and identification of goals around which new policies can be designed. My comments are aimed at hopefully contributing to that analysis. To me, that seems a far more productive contribution than the mindless criticism of Obama that some (not you hlen5!) have expressed. Many of the elements of the Libyan intervention - working with (rather than against) the local people, promoting values over interests, co-operation towards mutually beneficial goals, protecting human rights and freedom, being realistic about Western limitations etc - would seem to me to be essential elements of those new policies. So yes let's hope that this will be the beginning of a new chapter for the entire West and the entire Middle East region.

hlen5 -> RE: Taking the time necessary to be right. (3/21/2011 10:48:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster .............................I'm going to repost this because I think it really is something that needs to be thought about. quote: "So far this afternoon, the US has fired 112 Cruise missiles at a cost of roughly $569,000 each, not counting cost of shipping, handling, fuel and FedEx surcharges for overnight delivery. So, that's roughly $63.7 million spent so far this afternoon. It would have been cheaper to just hire Libya's air defense guys to shoot down their own planes. To give some perspective on that number, the shortfall for the Dallas Texas school system next year is estimated at $64 million, which is predicted to lead to 3,000 teachers being laid off. So one afternoon's fireworks in Libya is about the same price as one year of keeping 3,000 teachers employed, along with their car mechanics, grocery clerks, and pizza delivery boys. There is no money to pay for this. We can't afford it. Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, Progressives, Tea Party folks, Anarcho-Syndicalist Collectivists and "Other" are nearly universally agreed that the United States is deep in debt and going steadily deeper. To suggest that the $63.7 million we just blew up this afternoon is "already paid for" is a tad facetious, at best. It genuinely astounds me that folks who would try to outlaw bacon if Obama ordered a BLT for lunch are perfectly OK with him plunging us into another expensive, pointless, open-ended war with no clear benefit to the United States, and without Congressional authorization to do so." How is it we can afford war but can't even fix a bridge, or keep a teacher teaching, or give an annual checkup to an impoverished senior? HK I agree there's a lot of food for thought here. I don't want the US in another costly protracted war. People begging for help against certain anihlilation is something not to be ignored I think. Also do we stand for the rights of liberty or don't we? But you are right, our help should be tempered against our ability to teach our children and care for our elderly and our veterans.

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3]

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.03125