And so it begins. (Full Version)

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AlwaysLisa -> And so it begins. (3/19/2011 1:36:54 PM)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110319/ap_on_re_us/us_us_libya

I wonder if there will ever be a time, when we aren't at odds with someone?  



Aylee -> RE: And so it begins. (3/19/2011 1:41:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110319/ap_on_re_us/us_us_libya

I wonder if there will ever be a time, when we aren't at odds with someone?  


Nope.

I mean, even if the Earth was visited by evil aliens and all the humans banded togeather, humanity would still be at odds with someone.

There is an author you might read, he wrote some interesting stuff on the subject:

Guns, Germs, and Steel; and Collapse, by Jared Diamond.




AlwaysLisa -> RE: And so it begins. (3/19/2011 1:50:10 PM)

Thanks, I'll look that one up.

I don't understand the logistics of how we do battle.  I watched western movies, you take out the leader, the troops all give up.   Seems the easiest thing to do, is knock off Gadhafi.   Sure would save on lives lost, money spent, etc.  Don't we have sharp shooters?

Sometimes I think war is more of a business, then anything else.  I come from a military family, seems like a generation didn't go by, when we were'nt sending men off to some far away country.



domiguy -> RE: And so it begins. (3/19/2011 1:53:29 PM)

Thank God there are always idiots willing to get their nuts blown off for the worse reasons imaginable.

More women for smart people.



Aylee -> RE: And so it begins. (3/19/2011 2:02:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa

Thanks, I'll look that one up.

I don't understand the logistics of how we do battle.  I watched western movies, you take out the leader, the troops all give up.   Seems the easiest thing to do, is knock off Gadhafi.   Sure would save on lives lost, money spent, etc.  Don't we have sharp shooters?

Sometimes I think war is more of a business, then anything else.  I come from a military family, seems like a generation didn't go by, when we were'nt sending men off to some far away country.


The best way that I can explain why your suggestion is a bad idea is because we do not want the other side doing it to us.

If we feel free to shoot their leaders they they are free to send their own sharp-shooters. The same as abusing the POWs we take gives the enemy 'permission' to abuse ours.

Also, movies move at the speed of plot. Taking out the leader does not make the other side automatically give up. That is why we have institutions typically refered to as a chain of command.

Also, how do we know that offing Gadhafi is the best solution. We do not know who or what would take his place.

One other thought, do we have the right to interfere in a civil war?

I will state that these are just things to consider. I am not giving my moral or ethical opinions on what should or should not be done.



Aneirin -> RE: And so it begins. (3/19/2011 5:41:56 PM)

Did a foreign nation interfere with the American Civil War ?

Oh yeah, and war is a business, I used to wonder if arms manufacturers had tentacles in various hot spots in the world, constantly itching away hoping to create a market.

But of those arms manufacturers, one has just got to examine what links exist with government and there ask the right kind of questions.



Aylee -> RE: And so it begins. (3/19/2011 6:01:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Did a foreign nation interfere with the American Civil War ?



France and Britain. Not that they were overly successful, but they did make the attempt.




Aneirin -> RE: And so it begins. (3/19/2011 6:08:20 PM)

The old friends together, as they are now with this Libya situation



hlen5 -> RE: And so it begins. (3/19/2011 6:08:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa

.............  Seems the easiest thing to do, is knock off Gadhafi.   Sure would save on lives lost, money spent, etc.  Don't we have sharp shooters?



He has packed his compound with thousands of civilians, women and children included.



Aneirin -> RE: And so it begins. (3/19/2011 6:10:08 PM)

I wonder if he is hiding in his tent again.



Aylee -> RE: And so it begins. (3/19/2011 6:16:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

The old friends together, as they are now with this Libya situation


Do you recall which side they were on?



belleunchained -> RE: And so it begins. (3/19/2011 6:33:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

There is an author you might read, he wrote some interesting stuff on the subject:

Guns, Germs, and Steel; and Collapse, by Jared Diamond.



Much love for Guns, Germs, and Steel. A good book along similar lines " is Howard Bloom's The Lucifer Principle.



Politesub53 -> RE: And so it begins. (3/19/2011 6:34:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

The old friends together, as they are now with this Libya situation


Do you recall which side they were on?


I think Aneirin was using a touch of British sarcasm, possibly due to a thosand years of antaganism betwixt England and France. If anything its Americans who forgot whose side France was on, judged by the "freedom fries" comments.



Aylee -> RE: And so it begins. (3/19/2011 7:08:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I think Aneirin was using a touch of British sarcasm, possibly due to a thousand years of antagonism betwixt England and France. If anything its Americans who forgot whose side France was on, judged by the "freedom fries" comments.



Actually I am not sure just what Aneirin's point was with regards to foreign influence and the American Civil War.

My statement of something to think about was, "Do we have the right to interfere in a Civil War?"

As far as the French go, Napoleon was on the side of the South because they were offering him help with Mexico.

The "freedom fries" had to do with France's refusal to stand with its allies in 2003. Re-naming is very common in war time. You could even argue that the French started the tradition with their Committee for Public Safety during the French Revolution with regards to playing cards. Although I am sure there has to be earlier examples.



Politesub53 -> RE: And so it begins. (3/19/2011 7:12:52 PM)

Aylee, my apologies. I read Anerins first comment as the revolutionary war ( dont ask me why ) . Hence my freedom fries remark.




Aylee -> RE: And so it begins. (3/19/2011 7:31:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Aylee, my apologies. I read Anerins first comment as the revolutionary war ( don't ask me why ) . Hence my freedom fries remark.




It could be that he was thinking of a Revolutionary war as well, which would make is comments more sensible.

But, here is the problem as I see it (summation written by Glick)

"Whereas Western democracy champions believe that all people are born with the same Western liberal democratic values, post-colonialists believe that non-Westerners are nothing more than victims of the West. They are not responsible for any of their own pathologies because they are not actors. Only Westerners (and Israelis) are actors. Non-Westerners are objects. And like all objects, they cannot be held responsible for anything they do because they are wholly controlled by forces beyond their control."

If we (Westerners) interfere, the anti-colonialists will not champion the protesters as the victors. It will be the West imposing their value system and the Libyans will be seen as perpetual victims by the post-colonialists.

I see help from the West as creating a democracy that will be railed against as inauthentic and a cause for further bloodshed in the future.




TheHeretic -> RE: And so it begins. (3/19/2011 7:46:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: belleunchained

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

There is an author you might read, he wrote some interesting stuff on the subject:

Guns, Germs, and Steel; and Collapse, by Jared Diamond.



Much love for Guns, Germs, and Steel. A good book along similar lines " is Howard Bloom's The Lucifer Principle.



Sure. A fine bit of west bashing, except for leaving India and China out of his calculations, as he claims that it was just accidents of geography that made the western powers the dominant force on the planet.

Actually, he did address them in the afterword of a later edition. China was too monolithic you see, and India too fragmented. Europe, it seems was just right, but he doesn't alter his thesis to explore how that plays in, or how it might have come to pass.




Aylee -> RE: And so it begins. (3/19/2011 7:54:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Sure. A fine bit of west bashing, except for leaving India and China out of his calculations, as he claims that it was just accidents of geography that made the western powers the dominant force on the planet.

Actually, he did address them in the afterword of a later edition. China was too monolithic you see, and India too fragmented. Europe, it seems was just right, but he doesn't alter his thesis to explore how that plays in, or how it might have come to pass.




Okay, but I really liked the maps and the discussion about land, food, climate, and environment with regards to warfare.



Real0ne -> RE: And so it begins. (3/19/2011 8:01:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110319/ap_on_re_us/us_us_libya

I wonder if there will ever be a time, when we aren't at odds with someone?  


NO



Musicmystery -> RE: And so it begins. (3/19/2011 8:07:18 PM)

quote:

Did a foreign nation interfere with the American Civil War ?


Yes. England, supporting the South (for economic reasons--textiles).



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