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RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 8:26:42 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Now would that be an example of putting words in someone's mouth....or twisting someone's words....assigning meaning that was never originally expressed.....in other words straw-manning(now where have I heard that term before....hmmm,give me a moment ,it will come to me)


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RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 8:29:45 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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Status: offline 		Panda, Neil just started a politics group on Fl. Politics Und Other Stuff, I think.

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RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 8:30:20 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		Panda,

I made my argument.  It's based on personal expertise and knowledge.

My argument was simple.  I'll repeat it:

To put it simply, the "cease fire" from the Gulf War was breached by SA many times.  Any one of those breaches was sufficient under international law and UN resolutions to resume the hostilities against Iraq.

As well, SA attempted several other things that were casus bellum under international law: not the least of which was the attempted assassination of the US President.

Your argument appears to be that the only legal reason under international law that the US could've gone into Iraq was if they had WMD's.  This is an inaccurate assumption, and undermines the rest of your assertion.

You can continue to bluster and insult in an attempt to save face, but your normal "yell at 'em so loud and be so mean that they'll shut up" doesn't work with me.  Nor does it garner much respect.

Please rethink your position, and the way you respond.

Firm


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RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 8:37:24 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Why is it you always come to me to correct your history papers?

One thing is, when Reagan nearly introduced him to Allah, Gaddafi sudddenly had a revelation and became something of a changed man. The USSR collapsed and there went his key ally, and then, when he saw what Bush did to Saddam Hussein suddenly Gaddaffi was all smiles, and we couldnt ask for a better friend

Heres a short primer for you

Why Gaddafi's Now a Good Guy
Read that and when youre done ask me nicely and I may give you some more reading material on our relationship with Gaddafi and Libya

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

And how many times has it been pointed out to you that Reagan warned of the dangers of Gadaffi that were not only ignored by Bush but he had an active appeasement policy?

Why do you ignore all of this so easily?



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RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 8:40:01 PM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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And Bush liberated the Iraqi people because... ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

No, he did it because he didn't want innocent civilians murdered.


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RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 8:48:12 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
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From: Kentucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Now would that be an example of putting words in someone's mouth....or twisting someone's words....assigning meaning that was never originally expressed.....in other words straw-manning


Yes, it would... as was my intention.  Unfortunately, sarcasm doesn't come across very well here. 

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Profile   Post #: 206
RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 8:49:35 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

I'm not trying to bait either of you into doing anything other than making a cogent, comprehensive argument and defending it. For once. Neither one of you like to do that. Treasure, with all due respect to her, likes to dangle things and back away from them like a matador, and then when someone charges at the cape, they suddenly find that she's not really standing behind it after all.

... in fact Treasure is denying that she even made an argument, while at the same time lambasting me for not addressing the argument she didn't make. She threw up a link and said, "you're all wrong, go read this," and refuses to even summarize what's in the link because after all, she's not really making an argument. Well, fuck that. I'm not going to read a 134 page PDF file, and then at the end of it still have to figure out exactly what point the person is trying to make by posting it. I'm not going to do your thinking and make your argument for you, for god's sake. If you think that PDF file supports your argument, summarize it and explain why. Or, if all you want to do is troll and then whine because nobody takes the bait anymore, then keep on doing that. Whatever floats your boat.


This is where you run into problems when you try to consider what I posted as an argument.  You cannot argue against it because it is not a position. 

I presented a link to what I considered to be a fairly cogent summary of the situation between the US and Iraq because I felt that many here were not remembering, unaware of, or mis-stating complex events that happened over many years.  I did not summarize the contents of that link because to do so would have short-changed something that was already summarized.  I did, however, explain exactly where in the document to find key elements of information.

I am sorry if you felt that it was too lengthy to review.  Someone who was truly interested might have found it interesting and helpful.  Instead of leaving it at that, it appears you felt the need to embrace its contents as support of your position without even reading it.  Not so much as even a quote from it in support.  That's sad.

I wouldn't have minded so much except that you insisted on dragging me into your corner along with your assumptions.  I've not lambasted you for not addressing my argument... I've chided you for poorly supporting your own and trying to make me responsible.

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RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 9:12:18 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Or why are we breaking it, destroying the government there. Do we have even the first clue who is going to fill the power vacuum there? Is this something like Carters Afghanistan, are we inviting Al-Qaeda into a new playground with all of this?



Oh, for Christ's sake.

Just like Flcouple predicted, no matter what happens you will find a way to criticize Obama.

Do you realize that in the past few days you have repeatedly criticized him for not taking action?

Do you have some type of condition that causes short term memory loss or do you just hope people aren't paying attention?

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Profile   Post #: 208
RE: Impeachment? - 3/22/2011 3:33:39 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Oh, I see - changing the subject now.

Okay, lets play your new hijack game for a second

Its amazing that someone could have predicted that a president might receive criticism in a political forum

Especially after the Dems were so civil to the last Republican president

Absolutely amazing

Florida must be really smart to have thought that one up

And I suppose I owe the world and you in particular a deep heartfelt apology because isos post made me go "hmm" about a few things

Yes I should be ever so deeply ashamed, shouldnt I

But you cant comment about a topic rml, or isos post, or the questions I posed, such as who is going to fill the power vacuum, who is going to take charge of rebuilding Libya after its smashed... or even what I was really getting at, (despite Florida having gradjumucated third grade and all) the utter hypocrisy of many on the far left?

(Look carefully and you may even discover that I wrote 'we' and never mentioned the president)

Still... youre ever so fascinated with me that you cant take your thoughts off of me?

How very flattering.

But, try discussing the topic now though, if you can, please.

Thank you!

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Or why are we breaking it, destroying the government there. Do we have even the first clue who is going to fill the power vacuum there? Is this something like Carters Afghanistan, are we inviting Al-Qaeda into a new playground with all of this?



Oh, for Christ's sake.

Just like Flcouple predicted, no matter what happens you will find a way to criticize Obama.

Do you realize that in the past few days you have repeatedly criticized him for not taking action?

Do you have some type of condition that causes short term memory loss or do you just hope people aren't paying attention?



< Message edited by Sanity -- 3/22/2011 4:15:10 AM >

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RE: Impeachment? - 3/22/2011 6:02:42 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
One Leftist who is being consistent - Rush Limbaughs archnemesis, Michael Moore:

quote:

Michael Moore To Obama: Return Your Nobel Peace Prize

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/03/20/michael_moore_to_obama_return_your_nobel_peace_prize.html



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RE: Impeachment? - 3/22/2011 6:05:55 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Dennis Kucinich is consistent. "Where is the imminent threat?"

http://www.breitbart.tv/kucinich-slams-president-obamas-war-actions-with-senator-obamas-anti-war-rhetoric/

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RE: Impeachment? - 3/22/2011 6:17:29 AM   
Sanity


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Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Thank you Firm, as usual you nailed it pretty good.

Yes, it is my belief that beginning with their loss in Florida  many lefties as you say lost their grip on reality during the Bush years, which is why they dont want any discussion of presidential politics these days, period. Their insane rantings are "coming home to roost" as it were.

In the course of running the country their own guy who is supposed to be the polar opposite of Bush cannot help but follow many of the exact same paths that W had to take... which they screamed about.

So what do they do now?

Hijack, attack, deny, derail - anything other than address the topic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Could it possibly be that sanity started the thread to further his own agenda?

If his agenda is to point out that most of the protest and complaints from the left were not really about Bush's policies (which Obama seems to have adopted wholesale), but about gaining political traction and destroying your nation for purely partisan political purposes, then his agenda is one that I support.

As has been pointed out, if you protest and complain because of your convictions (even if I disagree with them), then I would place you in the "honorable" category of politicians and protesters.

If you protested and complained about Bush, but are giving Obama a free ride for doing essentially the same thing, then I place you in the "hypocrite" and "selfish partisan" category. (Not necessarily "you" personally, Mike, but generically.)

There seems to be a gaping hole of silence from many, both here on the boards, in the media, and within the ranks of our "elected statesmen" who protested - sometimes violently - about Bush's actions, but are "ho hum" about Obama's actions and policies: which are basically the same as Bush's actions and policies.

("Ho hum"?  Hell, they are justifying and supporting those actions, now that it's Obama, and not Bush!)

This particular incident (the use of US military forces against a "sovereign nation") simply highlights who the partisans and hypocrites really are.

So, yes, Sanity's agenda is certainly worthy of discussion.  As are the actions, words and agenda of anyone engaged in the political realm.

Firm



< Message edited by Sanity -- 3/22/2011 6:21:35 AM >

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RE: Impeachment? - 3/22/2011 6:24:25 AM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		breibart tv...what an ass.

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Profile   Post #: 213
RE: Impeachment? - 3/22/2011 6:29:38 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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At least Andrew Breitbart has the brains and  intelligence to directly address a given topic though.

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

breibart tv...what an ass.


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RE: Impeachment? - 3/22/2011 7:02:01 AM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		No, sorry Sanity. He has the known ability to address topics as he deems they need to be addressed... and that isnt necessarily with logic, accuracy or truth.

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RE: Impeachment? - 3/22/2011 7:05:54 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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I dont think the video of Kucinich lied in any way though, tazzy.

Do you?


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RE: Impeachment? - 3/22/2011 7:12:31 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Absolutely, he said Obama didn't follow the constitution, which he clearly did. As was pointed out by FirmHandKY (I believe) right here on this fuckin thread.

Which, if the assumptions are untrue (as they have been proven to be) the deal is untrue and not worthy of further consideration.

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RE: Impeachment? - 3/22/2011 7:36:39 AM   
Sanity


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Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
So, by your guttural decree Kuciniches consistency is wholly unworthy of further discussion? 

Thats really good...


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RE: Impeachment? - 3/22/2011 7:40:04 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		What would you care to discuss, now that we know his basic premises are flawed?

Wanna do a what if the trees moving made the wind blow dissection, or would it be more fruitful in the long run to discuss realities at some point?

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RE: Impeachment? - 3/22/2011 7:46:06 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Just a clue  - try reading the thread and coming up to speed prior to sticking your foot down your throat too much further, mnot.



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