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Arab nations and jobs. - 3/21/2011 7:12:41 PM   
DarkSteven


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One thing that has consistently surprised me throughout the Mideast uprisings,is how the Arab countries do not value jobs.

When the rulers want to placate the people, they simply hand out cash to them - not provide an infrastructure that employs.  And Libya's oil fields are worked by foreigners.  Even Ghadafy's troops are foreign mercenaries.  I don't think I've ever heard of any other ruler who used exclusively mercenaries and not his own nation's troops.

I keep thinking that the good ol' capitalist work ethic might help out the Arab states... But it seems they're not interested.

Anyone have any insight into why the Arab nations de-emphasize jobs and the corporations?  FFS, Israel, Europe, Asia, and the Americas have all bought into the idea of an economy providing jobs for the people - why not the Arab nations?


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RE: Arab nations and jobs. - 3/21/2011 9:14:23 PM   
TheHeretic


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Well this is a nifty minefield you've set out, Steve. Discussions of culture just beg to slapped with a "racist" ad hominem. Let's see if I can tippy-toe through.

It's hot, and there's no water. Factories get unbearable in moderate climates, and who wants to get out in that fucking sun?

That seems safe.



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RE: Arab nations and jobs. - 3/21/2011 10:02:05 PM   
kdsub


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Steve do you really think that Gadhafi is handing out money to the average man on the street? I don't think he does...I'll bet they have the same everyday mundane jobs that are found throughout the world.

Now when it comes to Saudi Arabia you may be closer to the truth…but away from the cities they survive as they have for centuries.

Butch


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RE: Arab nations and jobs. - 3/21/2011 11:28:51 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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I dont think its a mystery...as long as they can sell the countries natural resources they dont need to produce anything else, and creating an infrastucture to support that would take real effort.

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RE: Arab nations and jobs. - 3/22/2011 2:01:47 AM   
hlen5


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DS, are you talking about the Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs for people to feel uselful/worthwhile?

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RE: Arab nations and jobs. - 3/22/2011 2:07:23 AM   
tweakabelle


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Wasn't one of the major demands of the Egyptian revolution for jobs? My feeling is that it would be rash to rule out unemployment as one of the significant factors driving the "Arab Spring" revolt we are currently witnessing.

While factors such as lack of natural resources (outside of oil), lack of education, infrastructure, histories of colonial exploitation, harsh climate and topography are present, I'd hesitate to blame the indigenous people entirely. The Israeli factor is also significant in large parts of the Arab world.

Dubai's emergence as a major banking/finance/trading centre, the general prosperity of the Gulf region, Lebanon's amazing recovery from its disastrous civil war (prior to the wanton destruction of its infrastructure in 2008) all suggest that Arabs can achieve outstanding results where circumstances permit.

That said, the iron grip of conservative religious mullahs; failure to separate State and mosque; tribalism; corruption; appalling health and eduction systems; the failures of pan-Arab nationalism and Ba'athism; lack of open democratic societies; and the role of corrupt, repressive autocrats and tyrants in the post-colonial era all play their part in Arab societies allowing themselves to held back.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/22/2011 2:29:59 AM >


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RE: Arab nations and jobs. - 3/22/2011 5:09:34 AM   
DomYngBlk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

One thing that has consistently surprised me throughout the Mideast uprisings,is how the Arab countries do not value jobs.

When the rulers want to placate the people, they simply hand out cash to them - not provide an infrastructure that employs.  And Libya's oil fields are worked by foreigners.  Even Ghadafy's troops are foreign mercenaries.  I don't think I've ever heard of any other ruler who used exclusively mercenaries and not his own nation's troops.

I keep thinking that the good ol' capitalist work ethic might help out the Arab states... But it seems they're not interested.

Anyone have any insight into why the Arab nations de-emphasize jobs and the corporations?  FFS, Israel, Europe, Asia, and the Americas have all bought into the idea of an economy providing jobs for the people - why not the Arab nations?



Jobs mean a growing middle class would come and that would usher in more pressure on a regime to modernize. Most of those leaders don't want anything to do with that....since power will be lost. The Saudi's have done a reasonable job of it with the upcoming domination of olefin manfacture as well as taking a leading role in worldwide titanium dioxide production.

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RE: Arab nations and jobs. - 3/22/2011 5:41:47 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

One thing that has consistently surprised me throughout the Mideast uprisings,is how the Arab countries do not value jobs.

When the rulers want to placate the people, they simply hand out cash to them - not provide an infrastructure that employs.  And Libya's oil fields are worked by foreigners.  Even Ghadafy's troops are foreign mercenaries.  I don't think I've ever heard of any other ruler who used exclusively mercenaries and not his own nation's troops.

I keep thinking that the good ol' capitalist work ethic might help out the Arab states... But it seems they're not interested.

Anyone have any insight into why the Arab nations de-emphasize jobs and the corporations?  FFS, Israel, Europe, Asia, and the Americas have all bought into the idea of an economy providing jobs for the people - why not the Arab nations?



Jobs mean a growing middle class would come and that would usher in more pressure on a regime to modernize. Most of those leaders don't want anything to do with that....since power will be lost. The Saudi's have done a reasonable job of it with the upcoming domination of olefin manfacture as well as taking a leading role in worldwide titanium dioxide production.


I'll be darned.  I didn't know that any industrial activity was taking place in the Arab states.  Thanks for mentioning that.

And you put your finger on something else that bothered me - the relative lack of a middle class there.




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RE: Arab nations and jobs. - 3/22/2011 5:50:04 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Wasn't one of the major demands of the Egyptian revolution for jobs? My feeling is that it would be rash to rule out unemployment as one of the significant factors driving the "Arab Spring" revolt we are currently witnessing.

While factors such as lack of natural resources (outside of oil), lack of education, infrastructure, histories of colonial exploitation, harsh climate and topography are present, I'd hesitate to blame the indigenous people entirely. The Israeli factor is also significant in large parts of the Arab world.

Dubai's emergence as a major banking/finance/trading centre, the general prosperity of the Gulf region, Lebanon's amazing recovery from its disastrous civil war (prior to the wanton destruction of its infrastructure in 2008) all suggest that Arabs can achieve outstanding results where circumstances permit.

That said, the iron grip of conservative religious mullahs; failure to separate State and mosque; tribalism; corruption; appalling health and eduction systems; the failures of pan-Arab nationalism and Ba'athism; lack of open democratic societies; and the role of corrupt, repressive autocrats and tyrants in the post-colonial era all play their part in Arab societies allowing themselves to held back.


The Dubai prosperity doesn't surprise me.  Based on the Arab culture, I would expect them to be predispositioned towards the hospitality industry,

But note that Dubai was built almost exclusively by imported labor.  A lot of gastarbeiten in tehe Arab world.  There seems to be a bias against either hiring Arabs or working for Arab concerns.

Part of the conundrum is a lack of drive to get capitalist enterprises off the ground.  The haves are content with their current state of affairs, and the have-nots don't seem to have a channel to get significant businesses up and running.  I'm not sure if it's access to capital, or the passive attitude of Im'shallah (God will provide), or something else.  I suspect it's cultural because when Arabs immigrate to the US, they gravitate towards opening up shops here, kinda like bringing the bazaar mentality to this country.


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RE: Arab nations and jobs. - 3/22/2011 6:23:05 AM   
ashjor911


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Some countries in the Arab world provide job for the people, & some don’t,
Some countries help you to open a business & some try to destroy your business.
People here are simple, all they need to get is their food & their clothes & that’s it for the month,
Some people how dream about simple thing like getting a car someday,
So they immigrate to a better place UAE or US or UE, to get their dreams.
I am 26 years old male in Syria & I have money but that is not enough for me to get married or buy a house that is mien.
Some of us do travel for a period of time & then return to their own country, just because they fulfill their dreams.
Dubai was built almost exclusively by imported labor, yes that is correct, but lets face its ok:
An Arab worker will have to be paid about 1800 dirham’s / month.
An Indian worker will do the work for less about 800 dirham’s / month.
Indians, Pakistanis, you name it for the workers,
(In`shallah) = in god willing,
Like: I will be travelling to Jordan next month In`shallah.

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RE: Arab nations and jobs. - 3/22/2011 7:31:45 AM   
Aneirin


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I have lived in stayed in three Arab countries, and guess what, it's the same there as it is here, there are shops, tradesmen and people going to and from to work. One thing they are more civilised than us at, is the afternoon shut down as no one apart from mad dogs, and er, well, us wants to be out in that heat, the oh so civilised siesta and there life waking up again in the late afternoon to work into the night.

But jobs, it is even affecting the Middle East, a lack of jobs worldwide, so, it is not just the Western countries, but everywhere is experiencing it, and with no job, that means no income, and there no living for most and with some, the loss of pride and standing in the community.

So, has anyone any ideas why there appears to be a worldwide shortage of jobs, or is it plainly an overpopulation consequence.

The Decent Work Deficit: A new ILO report outlines the latest global employment trends

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 3/22/2011 7:37:48 AM >


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RE: Arab nations and jobs. - 3/22/2011 9:40:06 AM   
flcouple2009


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The use of mercenaries avoids the problem of troops refusing to fire on their fellow citizens.

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RE: Arab nations and jobs. - 3/22/2011 10:43:35 AM   
Edwynn


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"do you really think that Gadhafi (let's include most ME governments here, to the discussion) is handing out money to the average man on the street? I don't think he does...  "


Not cash in hand, but the huge subsidies paid by some of the governments  not only for gasoline but for other common items too would still constitute an oil export-financed handout to most. Historically used as a relatively cheap payoff to the populace to incentivize civil complacency towards authoritarian regimes, the cartel cannot control oil prices effectively enough anymore to be able to sustain the old ways.

Iran just cut out a large portion of subsidies recently and at-the-pump prices, get this, quadrupled from 38 cents/gal to $1.44/gal.

What brought this about?

When petrol/Benzin/gasoline/diesel prices are so ridiculously low, there is no way a refinery could operate at anything other than a huge ongoing loss. It is cheaper for the country engaging in such subsidy folly to import the refined gasoline from elsewhere at the wholesale price, still well above the pump price mentioned above, and sell it at a loss to the public, than it would be to operate their own refineries at the even more expensive operational loss. 

So we have the folly of exporting all this oil to pay for gasoline imports because the subsidies paid for by the oil income prevent non-loss operation of refineries in the country exporting the oil to pay for the subsidies. 

Yes.


But that is changing because both oil and fuel prices are not so readily controlled by these countries anymore, China amoungst others being smart enough to shop elsewhere, and Russia historically and lately Venezuela and soon Brazil producing whatever amount they darn well please. ME wells providing the most easily (i.e. most cheaply) extracted oil are drying up and higher cost wells are perforce an increasing proportion of the exports. The writing is on the wall.


Here's one report:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/20/world/middleeast/20iran.html

Mr. Ahmadinejad said that the government was spending $114 billion a year on energy subsidies. “If we can save one-quarter of that, it will amount to a vast economic transformation,” he said. He said that the prices of water, electricity and natural gas would increase “gradually,” and that the subsidy for bread would also be gradually eliminated. He predicted that the bottom 60 percent of income earners would be better off under the new plan while the wealthier 40 percent would “need to economize.”  (underline mine).


See? Even bread was subsidized. No wonder they are having economic struggles.


Other Arab countries do this at various levels, if not to that degree, the use of oil profits being used heretofore for pacification through artificially cheap prices rather than societal advancement.


Now they understand what's necessary and a lot of refineries are being built the ME and one way to pay for it is to cut the subsidies.



Developmental economists are well of the so-called "resource curse," whereby a country endowed with an abundance of one resource (even possibly 2 or 3) comes to rely on that alone for their well being, the concomitant lack of economic diversity resulting in disincentivization to develop otherwise. The resource income allows them to import whatever high tech support they need, most all of which so happens to do with production of the resource, and so not as much incentive for furthering education as would be in more diversified economies.






< Message edited by Edwynn -- 3/22/2011 11:11:54 AM >

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RE: Arab nations and jobs. - 3/22/2011 11:36:31 AM   
DarkSteven


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Hlen, you're touching on part of it with the needs. But another part is simply the folly of letting large amounts of young men be idle. The extreme example sound be Rummy disbanding the Iraqi army and instantly creating a huge group of armed unemployed men that were trained to kill.

Aneirin, you are describing primitive businesses. Those are small shopkeepers and guilds economically. No corporations. I'm not sure why corporation employment is different than small business employment, though... I'll have to think about that one.

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RE: Arab nations and jobs. - 3/22/2011 11:50:36 AM   
Aneirin


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Primitive, I call essential, for those essential businesses provide most of what a person needs to live by. Corporations, who wants them, who wants to be told what one must buy once the small businesses have been squeezed out of the market. Here in the UK, many a once thriving high street is now more or less a ghost town save for the tea shops, eateries and wine bars it is said attracts the tourist, stuff the tourist, the people in the area come first, traditional shops have gone, because the big corporate entities have taken the business. In most cases what has replaced good friendly service, is the I don't care take it or leave it mentality.

When corporations get a grip, there ends any hope of a small man masking a decent living, traditional 'primitive' businesses for me any day, not faceless money grabbing corporations. Aye, they might provide employment for people, but how much of that new employment replaces the employment lost by the corporations killing the small businesses in the first place I wonder.

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 3/22/2011 11:53:23 AM >


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RE: Arab nations and jobs. - 3/22/2011 12:44:33 PM   
Edwynn


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A bit simplified and antiquated view there.

Not all corporations are retail outlets, not all corporations are huge, and certainly not all of them displace existing businesses, a good many of them coming into existence and succeeding by fulfilling an emergent need of society, finding a niche, a new service or combo of services that reduce costs for buyers, etc. Some number of useless items in the bargain to be sure, but still the point is that only a quite small percentage of corporations exist only by agglomeration. The effects of their doings are more obvious, no question.

Everybody is most familiar with the auto manufacturing in Japan and Germany, and the electronics of the former, the big chemical companies of the latter, but in Germany, Switzerland, Israel, et al. a large portion of their economy is from small business that make specialized products (in optics, machine parts, custom electronics, etc.).

Back to the ME, since they are finally getting around building their own refineries (though no doubt with primarily imported and foreign hired everything) there's opportunity for lots of new peripheral businesses to come on line. Start with low tech; nuts/bolts, packing materials, whatever, and expand gradually from that, investing in infrastructure improvement and especially education all the while.


They've already got the retail thing down pat, and yes, we would hope they have the sense to retain that and prohibit Walmarts or the like.










< Message edited by Edwynn -- 3/22/2011 12:53:47 PM >

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RE: Arab nations and jobs. - 3/23/2011 6:33:19 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven


I'll be darned.  I didn't know that any industrial activity was taking place in the Arab states.  Thanks for mentioning that.

And you put your finger on something else that bothered me - the relative lack of a middle class there.



Just as critical to this issue as the absence of a middle class is the absence of any kind of established industrial or technological base. This has flow on effects like (to name just a few):
*skills shortages in areas needed to create industrial enterprises;
*the absence of industrial/technological infrastructure;
*the absence of distribution/marketing skills; and
*the absence of financial (banking) and legal experience/frameworks in relevant areas.
The emergence of China and South American nations in recent years has shown that these factors can be overcome, but it's far from an overnight thing.

As ashjob points out, given the flow of petro-dollars, it's proved cheaper for Arab countries to import these skills, not the best long term solution.

So, there are a lot of structural factors to be considered. My feeling is these factors be best considered prior to seeking cultural explanations.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/23/2011 6:34:00 AM >


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RE: Arab nations and jobs. - 3/23/2011 7:27:48 AM   
ashjor911


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I agree on that
only thing i dont agree on is my screen name which is ashjor not ashjob
that would make me trying to get a job.


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RE: Arab nations and jobs. - 3/23/2011 7:33:55 AM   
Aneirin


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My experience of a few middle east countries is that where they used to offer big money for foreigners to come out and do the job for them, they in recent years, say the past fifteen or so years have been sending their own people abroad to learn the skills necessary to run their own show. Now understandably this is perhaps for those with money, but, isn't it always, even within our own lands, money gets better education.

But the Arab countries have the very same problem as us, imported labour that works for less than a county's own people. Relative afluence is also a factor in that as people become better off, they are less likely to do for want of a better word, the shitty jobs.

I once saw a gang of brightly overalled people right out in the desert removing the ubiquitous blue plastic carrier bags that had blown onto and got tangled up on the camel fences, right in the middle of nowhere, where the dunes encroach onto the roads, all they had was a water bowser towed by an old coach with no windows in it and that was it, they were foreign labour, Gugaratis were common at that time, a shitty job, who'd do that in the middle of summer with sod all shade except the coach and bowser, temperature I believe was 150 f in the shade, I had Japanese air conditioning and there was no way I was opening the oven door to let that heat in.

But many who go to those countries for a better life do get a better life compared to their home lands, and they fulfill a necessary requirement in society, they do the jobs that very much need doing, that the more afluent nationals won't do because of the nature, or the pay, they are the same as us, no difference there.

Now, although the political boundaries and names might have changed, these countries have been there a long time and people have lived there and functioned so as to become a society, so therefore, they are quite capable of living in those countries, and the ancient way of life may very well come back again soon, when cheap energy becomes not so cheap or even non existant, so why bother gearing up for something that requires a lot of a dwindling resource, it makes no sense, perhaps it is beter to sell that resource to eager others than rely on it oneself, for it won't be there forever.

Maybe those in the Arab countries are wiser than us in this, perhaps we are doomed to fail when our energy source fails, where they will carry on as they have always done with their primitive ways and undoubtedly succeed as they have always done.

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RE: Arab nations and jobs. - 3/23/2011 7:49:18 AM   
tweakabelle


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I'm so sorry ashjor! Please excuse me! (even tho I have no excuses!) It was pure slackness by me.

You still love this little don't you?

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