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RE: The Iraq Effect - 3/30/2011 12:59:24 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I have wondered why so many Middle East countries all revolted at the same time. I sure hope that it wasn't Iran meddling quietly.

This is one of those cases where a single spark lit the fire. The situation was ripe for revolution, food prices on the Arab street have inflated a great deal in the last couple of years while incomes were stagnant. Also the citizenry of these nations has more and better access to information through al-Jazeera and the internet (the acknowldged leader of the egyptian protests was a Google employee).

A peddler immolated himself in Tunisia in response to a case of small time corruption and arrogance. That sparked protests that quickly brought down the Tunisian government. This emboldened people throughout the Arab world. When Egypt's generally peaceful demonstrations toppled that government as well the pro democracy activists in the more repressive regimes felt sure they could succeed.

So far these street revolts have been mostly secular, despite FNC's hysterics, so it is unlikely these predominantly Sunni states pro democracy movements are somehow in Iran's pocket.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 21

RE: The Iraq Effect - 3/30/2011 1:03:54 PM

mnottertail

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Oil prices going over the top and only the big guy gets a new grille. There is a heavy socialism amongst tribes, more like our tribal natives. Mukhtar gets the first and finest scimitar, no problem, but as soon as possible, everybody in the tribe gets a decent dagger.

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Post #: 22

RE: The Iraq Effect - 3/30/2011 1:05:15 PM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
So far these street revolts have been mostly secular, despite FNC's hysterics, so it is unlikely these predominantly Sunni states pro democracy movements are somehow in Iran's pocket.

When have facts ever bothered them any?

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(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 23

RE: The Iraq Effect - 3/30/2011 1:12:10 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
So, how much of an effect does and did the nascent democracy of Iraq have on the initiation of the current unrest in the Middle East?

Will it play out with much real change, or will the religious fanatics hijack the movement to more open societies?

Why, or why not?

Anyone who thinks what is happening in Tunisia, Egypt, Lybia, Syria, Yemen etc. is in any way a result of US action in Iraq is a complete and utter fool.

Iraq has only the barest facade of Democracy and is still really in the midst of a simmering inter ethnic civil war. Maybe we should ask the provincial government in Tikrit how the Iraqi democracy is progressing, if any are still alive.

The real credit for all this lies with Mohamed Bouazizi who committed a powerful act of protest.

The *problem* there is religion. One faction is against the other because muhamed married their cousin or some such foolishness!
The first thing we should have done is to destroy all the mosques and converted them all into Baptists! Then they'd all be wearing purple Baptist burkkas as they slunk into the liquor stores so that they wouldn't be recognised by anyone else in the church.
Replace Exon/Mobil, Sunnoco and Shell with Jim Beam, Jack Daniels, Johnny Walker and "Mr Chivas!"
Ive seen people parking their cars at the far end of the lot here then, scarf/hat covering head, big sunglasses on, hunched over, hands in pocket, looking like they're heading towards the "Pay Day Loans" store then an *abrupt* left for the last 50 feet as they "sneak" into the ABC store. Funny as hell to watch!
We need to outlaw ALL religons in the world and there'd be many, many fewer wars!
Get 'em all boozed up instead.
"Hey Achmed! Belly up! Glada join ya!" "Hey, my back is MUCH better without all that 5 times a day praying crap!"
They'd get along much better with plenty of booze and no religion!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 3/30/2011 1:18:53 PM >

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Post #: 24

RE: The Iraq Effect - 3/30/2011 1:37:35 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I have wondered why so many Middle East countries all revolted at the same time. I sure hope that it wasn't Iran meddling quietly.

That said, I find it ridiculous to postulate that an event thst happened eight years ago could have no effect till now.

The neocons' wet dream used to be that when Saddam was toppled, the entire Middle East would fall towards democracy like dominoes. It didn't happen then, and it'not happening now.

So what is happening, DS?

Firm

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Post #: 25

RE: The Iraq Effect - 3/30/2011 1:38:03 PM

flcouple2009

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Of course not because it disagrees with the point you were trying to make.

The people of Iraq didn't wake up one morning and decide "Let's have a revolt".

We begged, pushed, and coerced them as best we could to revolt.

There is more truth to the statement that "The US revolted in Iraq" than you wanted to admit. Our fingerprints were on everything.

Everything that was up until the point they did what we asked and we hung them out to dry.

Sorry it doesn't jive with what your pushing.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 26

RE: The Iraq Effect - 3/30/2011 1:41:57 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

Of course not because it disagrees with the point you were trying to make.

The people of Iraq didn't wake up one morning and decide "Let's have a revolt".

We begged, pushed, and coerced them as best we could to revolt.

There is more truth to the statement that "The US revolted in Iraq" than you wanted to admit. Our fingerprints were on everything.

Everything that was up until the point they did what we asked and we hung them out to dry.

Sorry it doesn't jive with what your pushing.

I got it.

The US is responsible for all tragedies in the world.

The people of Iraq are simpletons who were terribly happy under Saddam Hussen, and had the wool pulled over their eyes by those dastardly American Psychological Operations Group master manipulators.

We brain washed them so that they rose up and offered their lives, and the lives of their families in order to overthrow the benevolent ruler who had angered the fascist American power structure (controlled by the Oil Companies, don'tcha know).

Right. Got it.

Firm

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Post #: 27

RE: The Iraq Effect - 3/30/2011 1:47:21 PM

mnottertail

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That's a strawman, ain't it? Certainly no tour de force on a reductio ad absurdum.

edited because the little yeehaw guy didn't take first time...

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 3/30/2011 1:48:28 PM >

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Post #: 28

RE: The Iraq Effect - 3/30/2011 2:06:09 PM

flcouple2009

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Yes, How stupid of me to think that broadcasting radio messages encouraging and urging people to revolt had any effect on the people actually attempting a revolt shortly after.

I don't understand how they possibly could have gotten the idea we were going to support them. That idea certainly never influenced when the uprising started.

Your so insightful. Maybe you should publish an ebook.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 29

RE: The Iraq Effect - 3/30/2011 2:38:56 PM

ashjor911

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
I have wondered why so many Middle East countries all revolted at the same time. I sure hope that it wasn't Iran meddling quietly.
That said, I find it ridiculous to postulate that an event thst happened eight years ago could have no effect till now.
The neocons' wet dream used to be that when Saddam was toppled, the entire Middle East would fall towards democracy like dominoes. It didn't happen then, and it'not happening now.

I think its not whats hapining now is not Iran act, this has been starting up by this 26 young man in Tunisa who had no job & no mony, when he put something to sell on a street some police women came by him & kicked his ass & she spited in his face.
he feelt if i wont live a good life i will not live at all ...... sadly
he put himself on fire infront of the city hall 100`s of people watching while,
protestors fired up by his death to go beyond that & people of Tunisa started that act by just protesting agingst the regime which was doing nothing for the people without jobs.
after that It was Eygpt & the rest of the Arab are just had it from all of the ballshit we had for the past 35 years or more.

when someone got this power for too damn long,.. he will got out of his mind mad, insain or just fucking nuts.
it was the (The straw that broke the camel's back).
M

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Post #: 30

RE: The Iraq Effect - 3/30/2011 4:27:30 PM

rulemylife

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Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ashjor911

Hey OP
you are 100% tru....
If that man was still in power these actions today were never heard in the first place.

And why is that?

Was Saddam somehow the model for dictators worldwide?

(in reply to ashjor911)

Post #: 31

RE: The Iraq Effect - 3/30/2011 4:40:05 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

It was Bush who negotiated this settlement.

It was the lawyers for the families of those killed who negotiated the settlement.

No, it wasn't.

It was the Bush administration.

And I would provide you the documentation except for the fact you never provide any yourself and tell people to look it up.

So............can you guess what I'm going to say?

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 32

RE: The Iraq Effect - 3/30/2011 4:50:36 PM

ashjor911

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: ashjor911
Hey OP
you are 100% tru....
If that man was still in power these actions today were never heard in the first place.

And why is that?
Was Saddam somehow the model for dictators worldwide?

lets just say he was controling of some people who got madly insain when he was hanged
he had some powerfull men in jail & when they got out they restore Iraq 300 years back.

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"operative" working undercover for the federal government of bangladesh.

my name is : bonsh ... jamesh bonsh.
code name : 009.5
licensed to give formla

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Post #: 33

RE: The Iraq Effect - 3/30/2011 8:42:12 PM

tweakabelle

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"Can anyone imagine how the Arab spring would have played out if a keystone Arab state, oil-rich and heavily armed with a track record of intervention in its neighbors' affairs and a history of all-out mass repression against its own civilians, were still the private property of a sadistic crime family?" The Iraq Effect C Hitchens 28 March 2011 http://www.slate.com/id/2289587/pagenum/all/#p2

Any prizes for guessing which Arab nation Hitchens in referring to in this extract from OP? Jordan? Bahrain? Kuwait? Saudi Arabia? UAE? The quote fits all of these to one extent or another. It describes Saudi Arabia to the dot on the last 'i' in Saudi. But, guess what, he's actually talking about Iraq.

Therein lies one of the many flaws in Hitchens' position - it relies on a very selective, highly edited, self-justifying version of history, selectively applied.

To draw a causal link between a foreign invasion of Iraq, at the eastern extreme of the Arab world, and the spark that ignited the Arab spring, Tunisia at the other extremity of the Arab world a whole decade later is to draw a long bow indeed.

To establish such a case, to my mind, Hitchens is obliged, at the very least, to posit an explicit chain of causal events linking the two. No such evidence is presented.

In fact, virtually no evidence is presented at all. Bar the self-interested self justifying claims of the current Iraqi Foreign Minister at a photo-op in Paris. Please attach to that bit of evidence whatever weight you will.

So Hitchens' claim fails due to the absence of any supporting evidence.

Hitchens has angered many of his admirers by supporting the Iraq fiasco from Day 1. Much as it saddens me to say it, as Hitchens is stricken with a terminal diagnosis, it's understandable that he wishes to square his account with posterity. I have no idea how I would cope in such a situation, so I am loathe to criticise it.

Forgiving Hitchens his excesses as he stares mortality in the eye is one thing. Re-writing history by positing yet another false after-the-fact justification for the Iraq fiasco to spare a dying man some embarrassment is an ask of an entirely different order.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/30/2011 8:50:32 PM >

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Post #: 34

RE: The Iraq Effect - 3/30/2011 8:55:46 PM

hlen5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ashjor911

Hey OP
you are 100% tru....
If that man was still in power these actions today were never heard in the first place.

nevermind.

< Message edited by hlen5 -- 3/30/2011 8:58:45 PM >

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Post #: 35

RE: The Iraq Effect - 3/30/2011 9:09:07 PM

hlen5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

............Forgiving Hitchens his excesses as he stares mortality in the eye is one thing. Re-writing history by positing yet another false after-the-fact justification for the Iraq fiasco to spare a dying man some embarrassment is an ask of an entirely different order.

What a bleak view that must be since he believes there's nothing after.

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Post #: 36

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