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RE: Meeting of the Mad Scientists - 4/4/2011 6:55:59 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz

Highlander II: The Quickening (1991)
A corporation creates an electromagnetic shield to protect the earth after the earth's ozone layer disappears. Unfortunately the shield also condemns the planet to a state of constant darkness and high average global temperature and humidity, causing humanity to fall into decline. "Highlander II: The Quickening," Wikipedia

There can be only one.

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RE: Meeting of the Mad Congressmen - 4/4/2011 7:10:56 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
And now you are trying to discredit the very scientist that previously supported what you want to believe.

How is bringing up what he told Congress about the progress of the study, "trying to discredit" him?

From Ken's link

quote:

Muller said his group was surprised by its findings, but he cautioned that the initial assessment is based on only 2% of the 1.6 billion measurements that will eventually be examined.

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RE: Meeting of the Mad Scientists - 4/4/2011 7:23:30 PM

TheHeretic

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ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

You asked about a conspiracy…. I don’t believe there’s a conspiracy. But I do belive that many of the scientists in this field are so deeply concerned about what they found that they work as advocates…. I fear that the scientists are not trusting the public enough…. The bad effect of this then is that the pbulic loses some of its trust in science.

Now, you see, Hippie, I would have bolded it differently.

You asked about a conspiracy…. I don’t believe there’s a conspiracy. But I do belive that many of the scientists in this field are so deeply concerned about what they found that they work as advocates…. I fear that the scientists are not trusting the public enough…. The bad effect of this then is that the pbulic loses some of its trust in science.

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RE: Meeting of the Mad Congressmen - 4/4/2011 7:58:30 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
And now you are trying to discredit the very scientist that previously supported what you want to believe.

How is bringing up what he told Congress about the progress of the study, "trying to discredit" him?

From Ken's link

quote:

Muller said his group was surprised by its findings, but he cautioned that the initial assessment is based on only 2% of the 1.6 billion measurements that will eventually be examined.

So 32 million measurements show no significant bias. Assuming the rest of the sample will diverge dramatically from the measurements already examined is very unlikely. Dr. Muller wouldn't have agreed to testify if he wasn't able to draw any conclusions yet.

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RE: Meeting of the Mad Scientists - 4/4/2011 8:06:07 PM

TheHeretic

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So you are assuming it's a random 2% then, Ken? It seems like Berkeley professors would be a bit more organized than that.

Ken! Did you try and make a joke?

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 4/4/2011 8:08:15 PM >

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RE: Meeting of the Mad Congressmen - 4/4/2011 8:07:11 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
And now you are trying to discredit the very scientist that previously supported what you want to believe.

How is bringing up what he told Congress about the progress of the study, "trying to discredit" him?

From Ken's link

quote:

Muller said his group was surprised by its findings, but he cautioned that the initial assessment is based on only 2% of the 1.6 billion measurements that will eventually be examined.

Then you have to ask yourself why the GOP committee brought him in to testify on such scant findings, and then embarrassed themselves when he didn't say what was expected.

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RE: Meeting of the Mad Scientists - 4/4/2011 8:10:40 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
you have to ask yourself why

I already know why, RML. That's what makes it fun to watch

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RE: Meeting of the Mad Congressmen - 4/4/2011 8:17:27 PM

Hippiekinkster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
And now you are trying to discredit the very scientist that previously supported what you want to believe.

How is bringing up what he told Congress about the progress of the study, "trying to discredit" him?

From Ken's link

quote:

Muller said his group was surprised by its findings, but he cautioned that the initial assessment is based on only 2% of the 1.6 billion measurements that will eventually be examined.

Then you have to ask yourself why the GOP committee brought him in to testify on such scant findings, and then embarrassed themselves when he didn't say what was expected.

That's an inconvenient question, RML.

Meanwhile...

"After deducing these historical margins for the Patagonian glaciers, the scientists were able to calculate the volume of ice lost since the Little Ice Age. They were then able to compare that to the volume lost in recent decades. Thus, they obtained an average melt rate over the past several centuries and were able to contrast it with recent rates of melting.

The results strongly suggest that glacial melting in Patagonia has sped up drastically in recent decades, by at least a factor of 10. That result dovetails with temperature records suggesting that the Earth has been warming briskly since about 1980. All of the melt water is, of course, winding up in the ocean.

“Our data suggest that the Patagonian ice fields are contributing to sea-level rise at an increasing rate,” wrote the scientists, led by Neil F. Glasser of Aberystwyth University in Wales. “This mirrors the significant rise in global temperatures detected over the past 30 years, supporting the conclusion that there is a global trend toward enhanced glacier frontal recession in recent decades and providing support for the assertion that glacier recession can be attributed to recent warming.”"
http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/03/in-the-mountains-of-patagonia-a-harbinger-of-a-rising-ocean/

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RE: Meeting of the Mad Scientists - 4/4/2011 10:04:33 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

"After deducing these historical margins for the Patagonian glaciers, the scientists were able to calculate the volume of ice lost since the Little Ice Age. They were then able to compare that to the volume lost in recent decades. Thus, they obtained an average melt rate over the past several centuries and were able to contrast it with recent rates of melting.

The results strongly suggest that glacial melting in Patagonia has sped up drastically in recent decades, by at least a factor of 10. That result dovetails with temperature records suggesting that the Earth has been warming briskly since about 1980. All of the melt water is, of course, winding up in the ocean.

“Our data suggest that the Patagonian ice fields are contributing to sea-level rise at an increasing rate,” wrote the scientists, led by Neil F. Glasser of Aberystwyth University in Wales. “This mirrors the significant rise in global temperatures detected over the past 30 years, supporting the conclusion that there is a global trend toward enhanced glacier frontal recession in recent decades and providing support for the assertion that glacier recession can be attributed to recent warming.”"
http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/03/in-the-mountains-of-patagonia-a-harbinger-of-a-rising-ocean/

Which differs from what happened in previous periods of climate change, how exactly? Oh, right. We don't have anything to compare these findings with, do we?

Where I run into the issues is when science becomes the nifty new tool of social control, and the messengers start behaving like they automatically get to be in charge now.

Ken asked earlier if I had a better idea than spraying contaminants into the upper atmosphere. How about buying some fucking sunscreen, instead of deluding ourselves into thinking we are the masters of the earth?

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 4/4/2011 10:05:27 PM >

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RE: Meeting of the Mad Scientists - 4/4/2011 10:11:38 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

In the days of the dinosaurs?

The Spanish grew oranges north of Savannah Ga for over a hundred years. Try that today.

why are the conservatives so adept at revising history. There were NEVER any Spanish colonies north of Florida. Try again.

Oranges were never grown by anyone north of Savannah. Indigo, cotton, and other large plantation crops were grown in the southern colonies.

JLF, do you mean *before* 1526?

http://georgiainfo.galileo.usg.edu/missions.htm

And as for oranges.....http://www.ehow.com/facts_6976612_orange-lemon-trees-grown-georgia.html

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 4/4/2011 10:15:59 PM >

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RE: Meeting of the Mad Scientists - 4/4/2011 10:29:01 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

JLF, the climate always has and always will "change."
I'm sure the climate was much differant from now when Pangea was in existance.
The problem is that some people want to turn that into a $gravy train$ using of course "the taxpayer's money."
It's like inventing a "problem" to....... "solve."
If there were no Taxpayer dollars involved and no possability of ever getting any do you think we'd be hearing anything about this?
Like any good detective always knows,....."follow the money!"

Is that what the US looney right says is behind climate change?

Here the Australian looney right is convinced it's a left wing conspiracy to redistribute wealth!

Not that either is credible on this (or any other) issue, but you'd think they'd at least get their stories straight. Local variations of a Universal Theory of Denial that appeals to ignorance addicts everywhere, perhaps?

I do hope their lovers work out how to strategically apply the Universal Theory of Denial. We might just save the planet yet.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/4/2011 10:30:15 PM >

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RE: Meeting of the Mad Scientists - 4/4/2011 11:25:59 PM

Hippiekinkster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Is that what the US looney right says is behind climate change?

Here the Australian looney right is convinced it's a left wing conspiracy to redistribute wealth!

Not that either is credible on this (or any other) issue, but you'd think they'd at least get their stories straight. Local variations of a Universal Theory of Denial that appeals to ignorance addicts everywhere, perhaps?

Well, at least it's a time-saver. Once someone self-identifies as a denier, you know that they are completely scientifically illiterate, and that there is absolutely no point in trying to discuss anything related to chemistry, physics, or biology.

You know, someone (financed by Exxon/Koch bros.) will find a tiny error, and latch on to that as some sort of "proof" that all of climate science is paid for by George Soros for nefarious purposes. And when they are shown to be wrong, rather than admitting that they are wrong, they run away. As pops did HERE. And I just cannot respect anyone who does that. It goes to honor. You've read a lot of my posts, you've probably read one wherein I admitted I was wrong. Admitting that also means I have an opportunity to learn something. I simply do not understand wanting to be ignorant and closed-minded. I don't get it.

So anyway, what the deniers don't get it that it's a whole basket of symptoms. Synchronized glacial-melt; retreat of the polar ice packs; polar bears losing habitat in Canada and the Adelie penguins in Antarctica becoming extinct ( "The region is warming faster than anywhere else on Earth. Winter temperatures have risen by between 9 and 11 degrees Fahrenheit since recordkeeping began about 50 years ago, and the annual sea ice that covers the ocean near Palmer Station lasts 25 percent to 30 percent fewer days than it did in the 1970s." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19918376 ); increasing greenhouse gas levels; rising sea levels; the tree ring, ice core, and isotope records; shifts in air streams and major oceanic currents, et cetera. All of these taken together ("The Big Picture") prove conclusively that the Earth is warming, and Homo Sapiens is doing it.

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RE: Meeting of the Mad Scientists - 4/5/2011 2:04:26 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

How about buying some fucking sunscreen, instead of deluding ourselves into thinking we are the masters of the earth?

No, we are just the masters at screwing up the Earth.

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RE: Meeting of the Mad Scientists - 4/5/2011 5:10:25 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

So you are assuming it's a random 2% then, Ken? It seems like Berkeley professors would be a bit more organized than that.

Ken! Did you try and make a joke?

The data is from 10 different sources merged into one database. Likely enough the data was examined in an effectively random manner. The Professor's statement certainly strongly implies that he thinks so since he is drawing tentative conclusions from that same 2%.

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RE: Meeting of the Mad Scientists - 4/5/2011 5:16:44 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
I simply do not understand wanting to be ignorant and closed-minded. I don't get it.

It's a lot easier than realising that you need to change the way you do stuff. Denying all responsibility leaves you in a better state to carry on regardless than knowing the impact your lifestyle has, and if the cost of that is not knowing your arse from your elbow, that just means you have even less to worry about, doesn't it?
Besides, the rightist media conspiracy likes its audience ignorant, because they're a lot more likely to do as it tells them if they don't know enough to spot when they're being lied to...

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RE: Meeting of the Mad Scientists - 4/5/2011 8:54:04 AM

tweakabelle

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quote:

Hippiekinkster
I simply do not understand wanting to be ignorant and closed-minded. I don't get it.

A common error is to look for rationality in such behaviour. There isn't any.

Ignorance addiction can be understood in its entirety if you approach it by trying to understand the emotional stresses facts cause for people with wacky ideas. The posts of the looney Right here - so often bereft of facts and barely disguised pleas for attention and empathy, couched in typically passive-aggressive terms, often descending into outright hostility - support this perspective.

Clinging to such ridiculous views condemns a person to a lifetime of category crisis, truly an emotional hell if ever there was one, commonly compounded by gross ignorance. An absence of the social and intellectual skills needed to turn the situation around is often present.

There are cures but patient resistance (aka the "wallowing in ignorance" Syndrome) is a significant factor in unsatisfactory success rates. Spectacular progress is observed in cases where patients overcome their resistance, shed their terrors of reality and diversity, acquaint themselves with the facts and begin to form sophisticated world views. It's quite like de-programming ex-cult members in some ways.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/5/2011 8:57:49 AM >

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RE: Meeting of the Mad Scientists - 4/5/2011 5:53:19 PM

eihwaz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Hippiekinkster
I simply do not understand wanting to be ignorant and closed-minded. I don't get it.

[...] Spectacular progress is observed in cases where patients overcome their resistance, shed their terrors of reality and diversity, acquaint themselves with the facts and begin to form sophisticated world views. It's quite like de-programming ex-cult members in some ways.

quote:

ORIGINAL How to Deprogram an Ex-Cult Member
Being indoctrinated into a cult does not happen overnight, nor is it a simple psychological maneuver to completely take over someone's will and belief system. So it should be no surprise that deprogramming an ex-cult member is a difficult and painstaking process. You will need much patience and must realize it will be emotionally and psychologically wrenching for both you and the person you are attempting to retrain.

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick

< Message edited by eihwaz -- 4/5/2011 5:54:06 PM >

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RE: Meeting of the Mad Scientists - 4/6/2011 6:02:10 AM

truckinslave

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quote:

There were NEVER any Spanish colonies north of Florida. Try again.

I'm sure you're right, but it is interesting how many people and organizations disagree with you:

Here, here, and here, for example.

Oh, and if you check the map linked above you will see that that the settlements went into South Carolina. There's that.

Wanna do your own research on the oranges thingie?

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