Porn vs. Romance and how it relates to us (Full Version)

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OttersSwim -> Porn vs. Romance and how it relates to us (4/6/2011 6:35:27 AM)

Romance vs. Porn - two giant industries almost completely marketed to gender.

Both industries make many many billions per year between books, movies, DVDs, and other saleable goods.

Romance is almost exclusively marketed towards and created for women.  Porn almost exclusively to and for men.

Now, this does not mean that a guy cannot enjoy a good romance, nor a woman a randy porno flick...nor that all persons of either gender will always fall into the categories...but they divide these industries by gender for a reason, and given the discussions we so frequently have here at CM I wonder if the comparison of these two key industries can give us some indicators of how males and females differ, and how we all quite frequently (IMO) see these gender type differences playing out in real time here on CM.

So!  When you think about porn vs romance:

What do you see as the paramount difference between the two?

How does that difference play out here and in the kink world in general?

How do you see it playing out in F/m dynamics in comparison to M/f dynamics?

Can we use this comparison to improve things here on CM?

Thank you for your thoughts.  :)



LaTigresse -> RE: Porn vs. Romance and how it relates to us (4/6/2011 8:15:06 AM)

I think both are extremely unrealistic. Each playing off of, and using, as you've described, the desires of a target audience.

I think women as a whole, need to realize that no partner will, or can be like the characters in a romance novel/movie. That it is unrealistic. I think that women that spend too much time reading romance novels, watching the movies, will certainly get caught up in that world and, perhaps, without conscious thought, begin to compare and find real life lacking.

Similarly with men and porn.

I believe it takes conscious effort to define the boundaries between the fantasies of either, and realistic expectations of ourselves and our partners. It is all about balance. Fantasy is wonderful. It is a pleasant escape from our daily lives. But when the difference between fantasy and reality becomes fuzzy, there in lies the problem.



LadyPact -> RE: Porn vs. Romance and how it relates to us (4/6/2011 8:39:25 AM)

While I very much enjoyed your doughnut thread yesterday, I think this was really more on the mark.

I agree with you on the generalization that the two specifically target two different audiences.  Not that I think the romance bit isn't just as overdone in it's own way as porn is in it's style.  The sexual and physical in one and the mental and emotional for the other.  I might even go so far as to say that it's an accurate way to interpret the way that the two genders respond to stimuli.

Just on the basic premise, I can see the application to the kink world.  It might be a way for new male submissives to understand what is really going on in the kink world.  That it works on the basic concept of how the genders approach such things differently.  Kind of another slant on the 'men are from mars, women are from venus' concept.  Even though it might be a bit over the top, it might be a way for some folks to understand why the 'lead with the kink' approach doesn't work so well.

I'm not going to mess too much with attempting to make the comparison between F/m dynamics and M/f ones.  In an established dynamic (not something that is just starting out) I don't see a lot of differences between the genders.  One only needs to look at the Vampire vrs Werewolf thread to figure that one out.  Once a connection has been established, female Dominants are just as likely to use their submissive in a way that pleases them, just like male Dominants do.  It may apply during the courting phase, but that is pretty much over after the dynamic is well in place.

As far as using the comparison, it could possibly be helpful.  I'll leave that part up to you, Otters, as you are endlessly more patient in explaining such things, rather than I am.



leadership527 -> RE: Porn vs. Romance and how it relates to us (4/6/2011 8:50:02 AM)

What do you see as the paramount difference between the two?
One is physical, the other emotional.

How does that difference play out here and in the kink world in general?
Uh.... the kink world is about the physical... emotions are a bolt-on.

How do you see it playing out in F/m dynamics in comparison to M/f dynamics?
no actual data to comment on.

Can we use this comparison to improve things here on CM?
No, because boys will continue to be boys and girls will continue to be girls and both "sides" will continue to mock each other for the forseeable future. It's a cultural thing, not an internet or CM thing.



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Porn vs. Romance and how it relates to us (4/6/2011 9:34:46 AM)

Wonderful topic, thank you Otter!!.

I have always viewed the modern romance novel as female porn. The thrust of the story (all puns intended) is always the strong and studly (read: domly) male who meets and falls in love with the younger, very pretty and usually very independent and outspoken female (in the current romance, in the ones from a century ago the females are much more passive).

Though they share a very strong attraction, their personalities clash. Over time he woos her with his superior abilities and knowledge, which she submits to, and they both live happily ever after.

The corollaries with a D/s or M/s relationship abound, especially as the sex tends to be so very Male Dom/fem sub. These types of novels are huge money makers and get consumed just as fast as their male porn movie counterparts.

Women are verbal. It's why some jerk can say "I love you" and she believes it and will do anything for him. He said what she needed to hear.

Men are visual. That's why they like the movies. Here the hero is forever hard and horny and can climax all night long. The heroine is hot, sexy, slutty as she needs to be, and willing to do whatever her partner wants, no questions asked. Note that you rarely if ever see a female come, b/c the whole point is the male orgasm. When the male pulls out and comes all over the female it's called "the money shot."

Sound familiar? It's just about HIS pleasure, not hers.

Again the D/s corollaries abound. If we can combine the two together we have the male hero: strong, knowledgeable, very able, tall and good looking with a "smouldering" sexuality he keeps in strict control. The female is very pretty and sexually attractive, drawn to his superior insight/abilities/intelligence but ever so slightly in fear of her attraction to him.

When they get together on a sexual level, oh how the sparks fly! He takes her in a way no one ever has before, but it's also in a way she likes, needs, and craves. He knows how to push all her buttons and turn her into the sex toy of his dreams. She becomes the total slut, but just for him.

Male and female fantasy broken down to the essentials (for most). And guess what? These are the self same fantasies that are at the core of so many Male Dom/fem sub relationships.

The truth is, we are really not so far out of the mainstream. We take both fantasy sides (male and female) of the mainstream and glorify it in reality. Then we give it a great big twist and glorify FemDom/malesub or gay/gay or bi/bi or . . . or . . . or . . .

But for me at least, the roots of what we do are firmly planted in the most basic of male and female fantasy.











SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Porn vs. Romance and how it relates to us (4/6/2011 4:47:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

So!  When you think about porn vs romance:

What do you see as the paramount difference between the two?

 
Since I write romance and romantic erotica, I've studied the genres obsessively for years.  I can sum up the difference between porn and romance in one word:
 
Emotion
 
Romance is all about engaging the emotions.  A romance can be just as steamy as porn, but the cardinal rule is that it must include an emotional connection between the hero and heroine.  OTOH, porn is about two (or more) bodies slapping together without much, if any, connection.  Heck, the people involved may not even know each other, let alone be emotionally involved with each other.  Just think how many delivery boys and service men (cable guy, plumber, etc.) get to bang the hot MILF or sorority bunny the first time they show up at the door.

quote:

How does that difference play out here and in the kink world in general?
 
A lot of the guys who come to "the largest BDSM dating site" think it's going to be just like porn.  In other words, all they have to do is knock on a hot babe's door and they'll get dragged to the bedroom without so much as a "how do you do".  I don't think that happens nearly as much in meat life, but it does happen.  Let's face it, vanilla guys pick up women at bars and take them home for a few rounds of hide the salami all the time.  I'm sure the kink community isn't much different.  And can you say "con sex"?  I know there's such a thing as "con play."
 
However, as many women as there are who are fine with casual encounters, there are more who require dinner, a movie and some type of genuine emotional connection before they're willing to let a guy get into bed with them.  Kinky women are no exception to this. 

quote:

How do you see it playing out in F/m dynamics in comparison to M/f dynamics?
 
I don't see a lot of difference.  The guys who are getting dates are the same guys who get dates in the vanilla world.  They are the guys who are genuinely interested in the woman at the other end of the email and show it.  Which side of the kneel the guy happens to be on makes little difference.

quote:

Can we use this comparison to improve things here on CM?


I'm all for "being the change you want to see" but in this case, I'm not sure there's anything to be done that we aren't already doing.  We can't beat every braindead schmuck over the head with the Clue-by-Four until he grasps the concept of acting like a gentleman.  The guy either gets it or he doesn't.  When clueless newbs come here acting like it's a grocery store of lust (whoever said that was a genius), we can point them in the direction of the FAQ.  We can verbally bash them (within limits) if they act like dolts, but that's the limit of our capability.  The guys who "get it" will get it and the ones who don't will still be clueless tomorrow.



leadership527 -> RE: Porn vs. Romance and how it relates to us (4/6/2011 5:01:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan
I'm all for "being the change you want to see" but in this case, I'm not sure there's anything to be done that we aren't already doing.  We can't beat every braindead schmuck over the head with the Clue-by-Four until he grasps the concept of acting like a gentleman.  The guy either gets it or he doesn't.  When clueless newbs come here acting like it's a grocery store of lust (whoever said that was a genius), we can point them in the direction of the FAQ.  We can verbally bash them (within limits) if they act like dolts, but that's the limit of our capability.  The guys who "get it" will get it and the ones who don't will still be clueless tomorrow.

I rest my case. I doubt that "it" will ever improve as long as people think like this.



SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Porn vs. Romance and how it relates to us (4/6/2011 5:23:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

I rest my case. I doubt that "it" will ever improve as long as people think like this.


Your "case" is weak at best.
 
The guys who get it are the ones who want to get it.  They want relationships based on trust, mutual respect, and all the other things we talk about endlessly.  If they come here with porn-fed fantasies, they are willing to listen when we tell them that isn't how kink works for 99% of the population and change how they approach prospective partners.  The ones who don't get it don't want to listen and nothing we say will change their minds.  It's willful cluelessness and has nothing to do with how I think.



VaguelyCurious -> RE: Porn vs. Romance and how it relates to us (4/6/2011 5:34:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Can we use this comparison to improve things here on CM?
No, because boys will continue to be boys and girls will continue to be girls and both "sides" will continue to mock each other for the forseeable future. It's a cultural thing, not an internet or CM thing.

See, I've never had any of this kind of trouble with the 'boys' in my actual, real life (or the 'girls', for that matter) - they all understand pretty instinctually where the boundaries between fiction and reality lie. No mocking, no taking sides, just people getting on with the glorious business of being with each other.

I don't really see this stuff anywhere but the internet. So I'm inclined to disagree with you - I think it is an internet thing. And given that I barely get it on OKC, but I get shedloads of it here, I'm going to disagree with you again - I think the hypersexualised content of the other side of CM does have an impact.



PeonForHer -> RE: Porn vs. Romance and how it relates to us (4/6/2011 7:48:32 PM)

I'll add my voice to those who say 'Spot on subject, Otters!'

I'll also add my voice to those who say 'romance is for women, porn is for men'.

This means that some of my best fantasies aren't dealt with by either, because I'm part of too small a market. If I want to read a D/s story that's aimed at male romantics who are into D/s, I think I'm probably going to have to write it myself.



cloudboy -> RE: Porn vs. Romance and how it relates to us (4/6/2011 9:31:37 PM)

I think magazines like Vogue and Cosmopolitan blend the pornographic with the romantic, but porn leaves romance out entirely.

The split you mention has many angles:

grasshopper - ant

hare -- tortoise

Corporal -- social

Genetic -- societal

reckless -- safe

now -- forever

spontaneous -- planned

private -- public

dirty -- respectable

desires -- dreams

tits -- yacht

cock -- mansion

sweat -- cologne

hotels -- tea shoppes

forgotten -- remembered

repeated -- expanded

replaced -- refurbished

fucking -- being desired








ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Porn vs. Romance and how it relates to us (4/7/2011 6:46:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

So!  When you think about porn vs romance:

What do you see as the paramount difference between the two?

 
Since I write romance and romantic erotica, I've studied the genres obsessively for years.  I can sum up the difference between porn and romance in one word:
 
Emotion
 
Romance is all about engaging the emotions.  A romance can be just as steamy as porn, but the cardinal rule is that it must include an emotional connection between the hero and heroine.  OTOH, porn is about two (or more) bodies slapping together without much, if any, connection.  Heck, the people involved may not even know each other, let alone be emotionally involved with each other.  Just think how many delivery boys and service men (cable guy, plumber, etc.) get to bang the hot MILF or sorority bunny the first time they show up at the door.

quote:

How does that difference play out here and in the kink world in general?
 
A lot of the guys who come to "the largest BDSM dating site" think it's going to be just like porn.  In other words, all they have to do is knock on a hot babe's door and they'll get dragged to the bedroom without so much as a "how do you do".  I don't think that happens nearly as much in meat life, but it does happen.  Let's face it, vanilla guys pick up women at bars and take them home for a few rounds of hide the salami all the time.  I'm sure the kink community isn't much different.  And can you say "con sex"?  I know there's such a thing as "con play."
 
However, as many women as there are who are fine with casual encounters, there are more who require dinner, a movie and some type of genuine emotional connection before they're willing to let a guy get into bed with them.  Kinky women are no exception to this. 

quote:

How do you see it playing out in F/m dynamics in comparison to M/f dynamics?
 
I don't see a lot of difference.  The guys who are getting dates are the same guys who get dates in the vanilla world.  They are the guys who are genuinely interested in the woman at the other end of the email and show it.  Which side of the kneel the guy happens to be on makes little difference.

quote:

Can we use this comparison to improve things here on CM?


I'm all for "being the change you want to see" but in this case, I'm not sure there's anything to be done that we aren't already doing.  We can't beat every braindead schmuck over the head with the Clue-by-Four until he grasps the concept of acting like a gentleman.  The guy either gets it or he doesn't.  When clueless newbs come here acting like it's a grocery store of lust (whoever said that was a genius), we can point them in the direction of the FAQ.  We can verbally bash them (within limits) if they act like dolts, but that's the limit of our capability.  The guys who "get it" will get it and the ones who don't will still be clueless tomorrow.


I totally agree that emotion is the primary difference between the romance novel and just about any porn. It is something I failed to mention and yet it is so very important. In the romance, everything the hero and heroine do, their ability to overcome relationship obstacles, are all based on how these two feel about each other (though it is common for them to spend some time denying these strong feelings).

Porn of course has nothing to do with feeling and everything to do with inserting tab a into slot b. Any emotion (except for that money shot) has been sucked right out of it.

Which is perhaps why the most successful males on both sides of the kneel are romantics at heart, and the most successful females are those who can admit they really like sex, for it's own sake.







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