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Something different - 4/10/2011 7:41:40 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Just a strange idea to play with on a Sunday morning.

When the US Constitutional system was first set up, our bicameral legislature had one body elected by the people on a two-year cycle, and a smaller body, appointed by the states, on a staggered six year cyce. The smaller body was supposed to be the the more deliberative, with much greater consistency in the membership.

Well, the appointments from the states became a subject of much cronyism and corruption, so the people took over that election as well. So now we get a room full of bandwagon yahoos at both ends of the building.

What if we took a whole different approach to filling the Senate? A lottery. We set some basic standards to be eligible to have names go into the hat, such as, minimum residency in the state, a minimum IQ (120 and above?), and no felony convictions. At the end of the term, the people of the state can vote to recertify, or draw again.

What do you think?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Something different - 4/10/2011 7:55:08 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		presuming the first thing you do is get rid of electronics voting machines and go to a numbered receipted vote....

The first thing that needs to be done is realize that any constitution creates a citizenship where you become a paying club member no different than signing up for sams club discounts with one HUGE exception.

When this club is called government unlike sams club you are FORCED to buy their services at the end of the barrel of a gun regardless if you join the club or not.

Now you can look at the articles of confederation to verify that little nugget.

Once you agree to be a "citizen", oh wait that constitution says the second your ass hits the table you are a subject-citizen. (just like when your cattle has calves, the second its born its yours)

Then there is the problem that NO constitution was ratified by the so called "People", they were ratified by delegates who certified that its what the people wanted and you can scour the national archives and you will find NO ZIPPO NADA evidence the people ever voted on any of it, including the state constitutions.

and we all now know how valid a "government certification" is...

in as much as recalls are concerned, yeh they should have the ability for a recall vote whenever they want when a percentage of voters file a petition.

and the supreme court deciding who won an election is atrocious.


but what are you going to do about the articles of confederation that grants power to the legislatures ALONE to determine taxes?

You have the original 13 states, (The United States of America) then you have the remaining states (The United States) and the words state is really E-State abridged.

Lots of issues need to be looked at and this is the zit on the wing on the fly on the tip of the iceberg.





< Message edited by Real0ne -- 4/10/2011 8:07:11 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Something different - 4/10/2011 8:02:49 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Thanks as always for your valuable contributions to us all, Real.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Something different - 4/10/2011 8:12:20 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:


Reality is not obligated to conform to the mapquest directions


Any time Rich!





since its probably not obvious, a constitutor creates a constitution usu for the payment of debt.


ironically...........its article 8 in the wisconsin constitution as well!

quote:

Articles of Confederation

Article VIII. All charges of war, and all other expenses that shall be incurred for the common defense or general welfare, and allowed by the united States in congress assembled, shall be defrayed out of a common treasury, which shall be supplied by the several States in proportion to the value of all land within each State, granted or surveyed for any person, as such land and the buildings and improvements thereon shall be estimated <--PROPERTY TAXES!!!!! according to such mode as the united States in congress assembled, shall from time to time direct and appoint.

The taxes for paying that proportion shall be laid and levied by the authority and direction of the legislatures of the several States within the time agreed upon by the united States in congress assembled.





quote:

STATE OF WISCONSIN CONSTITUTION
ARTICLE VIII.
FINANCE
Rule of taxation uniform; income, privilege and
occupation taxes.
SECTION 1. [As amended Nov. 1908, April
1927, April 1941, April 1961 and April 1974] The rule of taxation
shall be uniform but the legislature may empower cities, villages
or towns to collect and return taxes on real estate located
therein by optional methods. Taxes shall be levied upon such
property with such classifications as to forests and minerals
including or separate or severed from the land, as the legislature
shall prescribe. (now I dont see the word "People" in there anywhere nor have I seen any referendums on taxation!  Its on autopilot!) Taxation of agricultural land and undeveloped
land, both as defined by law, need not be uniform with the taxation
of each other nor with the taxation of other real property.
Taxation of merchants’ stock−in−trade, manufacturers’ materials
and finished products, and livestock need not be uniform
with the taxation of real property and other personal property,
but the taxation of all such merchants’ stock−in−trade, manufacturers’
materials and finished products and livestock shall be
uniform, except that the legislature may provide that the value
thereof shall be determined on an average basis. Taxes may also
be imposed on incomes, privileges and occupations, which taxes
may be graduated and progressive, and reasonable exemptions
may be provided. [1905 J.R. 12, 1907 J.R. 29, 1907 c. 661, vote
Nov. 1908; 1925 J.R. 62, 1927 J.R. 13, vote April 1927; 1939
J.R. 88, 1941 J.R. 18, vote April 1941; 1959 J.R. 78, 1961 J.R.
13, vote April 1961; 1971 J.R. 39, 1973 J.R. 29, vote April 1974]


imagine that!   Wisconsin wasnt real creative. LOL

seems we have a debt to pay that cant be paid and have no say so in the process!

Now I know that voters are really stoopid but who would vote themselves to pay all those taxes and remove the power from the people and put is squarely in the hands of the constitutors, errm I mean legislators?

Bring back the original 13th, no fucking attorneys in government!

tweet!
tweety tweet tweet!

recall em all!



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 4/10/2011 8:53:07 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Something different - 4/10/2011 9:07:06 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Well that's just fascinating, Real. It's always nice to hear from the keepers of obscure knowledge.

Got it. The lottery would be rigged anyway.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Something different - 4/10/2011 9:16:06 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

What if we took a whole different approach to filling the Senate? A lottery. We set some basic standards to be eligible to have names go into the hat, such as, minimum residency in the state, a minimum IQ (120 and above?), and no felony convictions. At the end of the term, the people of the state can vote to recertify, or draw again.

What do you think?


Who would determine the participants in the lottery, or would it be open to anyone?

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Something different - 4/10/2011 9:31:02 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Who would determine the participants in the lottery, or would it be open to anyone?




The more open, the better, to my way of thinking, within the restrictions ultimately determined. I'd think the Secretary of State for the various states would be tasked with administering the registration and drawing, but there might be a better way, somewhere.

Got a suggestion?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Something different - 4/10/2011 9:57:33 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Who would determine the participants in the lottery, or would it be open to anyone?




The more open, the better, to my way of thinking, within the restrictions ultimately determined. I'd think the Secretary of State for the various states would be tasked with administering the registration and drawing, but there might be a better way, somewhere.

Got a suggestion?


Just an observation.

I think it would make it far too random and we would end up with a greater percentage of idiots in Congress than we have now.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Something different - 4/10/2011 9:58:54 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Well that's just fascinating, Real. It's always nice to hear from the keepers of obscure knowledge.

Got it. The lottery would be rigged anyway.


well yeh

it would be rigged actually.

Another Example of the 1 Minute E Voting Machine Hack


Princeton University Warning on E-Voting Machine Hack Shows Human Touch Can Be a Good Thing


Who's Counting: Hacking Diebold Voting Machines


"It's not the people who vote that count. It's the people who count the votes." (Josef Stalin)

Do you honestly believe there would ever be an electronic voting system that would not have a back door?  LOL

I have some ally gator land for ya if you do!  Even has a bridge that I will toss in for free!



also its only obscure to those who have never read or understood the constitution.

its all there just people dont read it.

Labeling it "obscure" especially in a constitution thread is just an erroneous discount.







< Message edited by Real0ne -- 4/10/2011 10:01:44 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Something different - 4/10/2011 10:00:15 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Wouldn’t it be a lot better to limit political contributions to individuals with a $2,000 limit. Then make lobbying a twenty year in the slammer offense.

Then our elected officials would beholden to one group only… the electorate.

We need people to represent different views and a lottery system would make that impossible.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Something different - 4/10/2011 11:14:52 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		Rich, you are basically proposing an election with a random selection.

The huge minus is that the people's control over their representatives would be lost.

The huge plus is that the politicians would not need massive war chests, with the associated fundraising and obligations to the donors' blocs.

I'm gonna have to think about this one.  But I'd add to the requirements the ability to pass a top secret security clearance.  Get rid of the drunks and adulterers.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Something different - 4/10/2011 11:33:17 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Just a strange idea to play with on a Sunday morning.

When the US Constitutional system was first set up, our bicameral legislature had one body elected by the people on a two-year cycle, and a smaller body, appointed by the states, on a staggered six year cyce. The smaller body was supposed to be the the more deliberative, with much greater consistency in the membership.

Well, the appointments from the states became a subject of much cronyism and corruption, so the people took over that election as well. So now we get a room full of bandwagon yahoos at both ends of the building.

What if we took a whole different approach to filling the Senate? A lottery. We set some basic standards to be eligible to have names go into the hat, such as, minimum residency in the state, a minimum IQ (120 and above?), and no felony convictions. At the end of the term, the people of the state can vote to recertify, or draw again.

What do you think?
I read somewhere,or heard,that something akin to 90% of those that actually win lotteries....are made instant millionaires by the luck of the draw.....declare bankruptcy within 5 years !
With that in mind Rich......I must say I take a rather dim view of your lottery scheme.
Even with a pool restricted to those with rather healthy IQ scores.....far too much is unknown,far too much left to chance.
Though we seem as a people to do a piss poor job on the character issue,surely leaving this to fickle lady luck would be a step backwards.


_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: Something different - 4/10/2011 11:38:13 AM   
Louve00


Posts: 1674
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline 		You can please all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.  Abraham Lincoln said this (if you substitute the word "please" with the word "fool". 

I think someone's always going to be around to bitch about this, that or anything else they may not like.  In fact, I think like minded people are always going to congregate and form their own conclusions and try to dominate the scenario.  I also think some people are easily led or swayed by others...ie...don't think for themselves, but just go along with the loudest crowd.  That is just the nature of people.  I think there is always going to be a crowd content with the status quo, and there are always going to be rebels, who look to change things (hopefully) for the better.

While I too, would like to see political parties become obsolete and our voting would be more geared toward the causes we believe in.  Those causes are still going to reflect an opposition to change and a pro-stance toward change.  And mix in with those two tangents, the paranoid conspiracists...and we'll eventually (or always?) be right back where we started from.  We're all too spoiled to give a little for the sake of a cause, unless its a cause we like. 

Doing away with political parties, with no consideration of a cause, and leaving it solely to chance by way of a lottery would still make some unhappy, some happy, and some ready to create chaos because they didn't get their way. 


_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

(in reply to DarkSteven)
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RE: Something different - 4/10/2011 11:53:55 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Rich, you are basically proposing an election with a random selection.

The huge minus is that the people's control over their representatives would be lost.

The huge plus is that the politicians would not need massive war chests, with the associated fundraising and obligations to the donors' blocs.

I'm gonna have to think about this one.  But I'd add to the requirements the ability to pass a top secret security clearance.  Get rid of the drunks and adulterers.



and what "control" do you have over them now?

ohaha care
bailout
borders
patriot act

and the beat goes on!
makes no difference which isle is in.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Something different - 4/11/2011 6:46:30 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne






reed is not equal to read
red is not equal to read

A con-STIT-U-tor stands (makes good pledges) of a constituency. Thats what you got there.

A con-STIT-U-tor  is nothing to do with a con-STIT-OO-shun.

 

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Something different - 4/11/2011 6:55:49 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Wasn't a bad idea for a thread Rich...but in execution....well RealOne showed up and that was that


_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Something different - 4/11/2011 6:59:40 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Regarding the OP, Rich----

Sort of like it with provisos, I would like to make it more draft like, like a military service, where in you get three hots and a flop, a living wage, nothing extreme, but dependent expenses and so on.....and you re-up (with the vote) and when you are done you are done.

Great idea in the main. 

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Something different - 4/11/2011 7:03:02 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"and no felony convictions."

Why ? That constitutes a bill of attainder which is unlawful here. Not the this law is followed, but it is still the law. Want details ?

T^T

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Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Something different - 4/11/2011 7:05:53 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Yes I want details, because it is hardly a bill of attainder to have someone who stands convicted of a felony under the law exempted.  We do that in many areas already.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 4/11/2011 7:06:28 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Something different - 4/11/2011 7:07:48 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"Now you can look at the articles of confederation to verify that little nugget"

You mean the creation of the oppositon, which was the south ? Or to you mean the original articles of confederation, which eventually became the founding documents of our country ?

T^T

(in reply to Real0ne)
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