RE: Ken Burns muses on the 150 th anniversary of Fort Sumpter

RE: Ken Burns muses on the 150 th anniversary of Fort Sumpter (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion

Message

MrRodgers -> RE: Ken Burns muses on the 150 th anniversary of Fort Sumpter (4/12/2011 4:04:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub You do know that blacks fought for the south too don't you... but of course I should have said "most"...even then it is just a opinion They were offered their freedom which was too hard to turn down and the south didn't go along believing that if the slave made a good soldier...than their whole theory [about race] was wrong.

kdsub -> RE: Ken Burns muses on the 150 th anniversary of Fort Sumpter (4/12/2011 4:09:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Actually, in High School, here in Texas we were told the war was about slavery. In college, after doing a research paper on the subject, with all the reading, research and what I learned in class, it boiled down to state's rights. I would like to point out that there was the suggestion, made in congress BEFORE 1860 that the US use the same plan as Great Britain did to abolish slavery in the British Empire. That plan involved the government using the idea of Eminent Domain to purchase all the slaves, then outlaw slavery and release the slaves. This would have preserved the wealth of the southern plantation owners who's slaves were a capital investment. But thinking like a southern slave owner if the slaves were purchased and freed ...who would work their plantations. The lack of a work force was the reason for slavery in the first place. One… would they recoup their original investment under the plan and Two…could they keep their standard of living when forced to pay their former slaves for their labor? Butch

FatDomDaddy -> RE: Ken Burns muses on the 150 th anniversary of Fort Sumpter (4/12/2011 4:17:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto The Civil War WAS about State's Rights - the "right" of the White citizens of an individual state to hold non-Whites as non-consensual slaves, the "right" to live off the fruits of their slaves' labor and the "right" to rape their female (or male, if so inclined) non-White slaves whenever they felt like it - and the belief that no one outside their state had the Constitutional authority to forbid them from doing so. And it took over 4 years and thousands of lives to show them they were wrong... And that's the entire crux of the whole war. Even Confederate Vice President Alexander Stevens, called slavery "The cornerstone of The Confederacy" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech "The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away... Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it—when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell. Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition." Southern's like to pull out Jubal Early's Lost Cause nonsense as a way to defend the actions of the rebellion ( The Afore mentioned Stevens, having a to explain his "re ratting" to The Union as Winston Churchill would later famously say about leaving his party, joining the opposition and rejoining the first party, eventually settled and became an ardent defender of The Lost Cause) but the Lost Cause is shear nonsense.

slvemike4u -> RE: Ken Burns muses on the 150 th anniversary of Fort Sumpter (4/12/2011 5:28:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Actually, in High School, here in Texas we were told the war was about slavery. In college, after doing a research paper on the subject, with all the reading, research and what I learned in class, it boiled down to state's rights. I would like to point out that there was the suggestion, made in congress BEFORE 1860 that the US use the same plan as Great Britain did to abolish slavery in the British Empire. That plan involved the government using the idea of Eminent Domain to purchase all the slaves, then outlaw slavery and release the slaves. This would have preserved the wealth of the southern plantation owners who's slaves were a capital investment. But thinking like a southern slave owner if the slaves were purchased and freed ...who would work their plantations. The lack of a work force was the reason for slavery in the first place. One… would they recoup their original investment under the plan and Two…could they keep their standard of living when forced to pay their former slaves for their labor? Butch Such a plan would have and apparently did, die still born.There were many such plans floated....hell as far back as Jefferson the best and brightest of the South knew that slavery as an institution had a finite shelf life and that it's continuance could not be tolerated indefinitely .What they could never figure out was how to eliminate and still hold onto their way of life. Any attempt to explain the civil war that does not put slavery front and center as the impetus for said war....is nothing more than revisionist history.One people with a common history,a common language,a common god(for the most part) on one continent.Their only differences....slave and free state,agrarian southern society and emerging industrial north.The agrarian versus industrial is in large part once again the matter of the work force.....slave as opposed to what a southern gentleman would call a "wage slave". Add to this the predominate feeling of many in the south that it was a god-given right for them to hold the black race in bondage.....sorry Jlf,float whatever theory you have come to believe in....there is no war without slavery,there is no secession without slavery...there is no reason at all that one people should attempt to rend themselves so violently into two....without the presence of slavery to drive them apart. On top of this you further revise history when you refer to it as the "War of Northern Aggression"....which sort of gives the game away now doesn't it.You don't choose to call it "The Second Revolution" or the "War for Southern Independence"...you accuse the North of aggression.....and yet today marks the anniversary of Southern soldiers kicking off the dance,so to speak,by firing on what was to that point their own flag. How does that jive with Northern aggression?

SilverMark -> RE: Ken Burns muses on the 150 th anniversary of Fort Sumpter (4/12/2011 5:31:05 PM)
Yes....states rights....states rights to have citizens within that state own SLAVES....

slvemike4u -> RE: Ken Burns muses on the 150 th anniversary of Fort Sumpter (4/12/2011 5:35:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SilverMark Yes....states rights....states rights to have citizens within that state own SLAVES.... Well in a lot fewer words than I would have used.....Mark just summed up the ONLY states right that mattered [:)]. Where the hell have you been,haven't seen you round these parts in a looong time?

SilverMark -> RE: Ken Burns muses on the 150 th anniversary of Fort Sumpter (4/12/2011 5:52:30 PM)
Sometimes Mike, I haven't the patience for this place! I think as opposed to learning toleration in my advanced age, it wanes even more quickly. Every now and then, I just can't resist!

slvemike4u -> RE: Ken Burns muses on the 150 th anniversary of Fort Sumpter (4/12/2011 6:02:49 PM)
Well,I for one have missed your contributions...I go thru phases myself,I realize all we do is argue here...no one's mind is ever changed,I doubt that anyone's ever will....but than I realize one fundamental truth......I love,no need to argue....so it is all good....at least for now it is...till the next phase [:)].

domiguy -> RE: Ken Burns muses on the 150 th anniversary of Fort Sumpter (4/12/2011 6:12:07 PM)
I am now a tea bagger. Go Trump!

slvemike4u -> RE: Ken Burns muses on the 150 th anniversary of Fort Sumpter (4/12/2011 6:45:53 PM)
Don't derail my thread Domiguy [:)]

slvemike4u -> RE: Ken Burns muses on the 150 th anniversary of Fort Sumpter (4/12/2011 6:57:22 PM)
Perhaps this might just stir things up a bit(it has in the past)IMO rather than "The Great Emancipator" Lincoln would be better served,and it would be more accurate to hang the tag "Savior of the Union" Now if that doesn't get some blood boiling(at least in the veins of the southern men here) I don't know what to do [:)]

slvemike4u -> RE: Ken Burns muses on the 150 th anniversary of Fort Sumpter (4/12/2011 7:35:32 PM)
I have got to tell you...right about now I am missing the hell out of CelticLord.Now there was a Southern man who seethed at the mere mention of Lincoln....actually called him a tyrant(or some such nonsense)can you imagine,Lincoln a tyrant...pish posh,how silly.[:D][:D]

kdsub -> RE: Ken Burns muses on the 150 th anniversary of Fort Sumpter (4/12/2011 8:03:23 PM)
quote: there is no war without slavery,there is no secession without slavery yep

slvemike4u -> RE: Ken Burns muses on the 150 th anniversary of Fort Sumpter (4/12/2011 8:11:12 PM)
Not what I'm looking for right now Butch....perhaps I am being too subtle,but I'm trying to start a fight....well an internet approximation of one anyway [:)]

mnottertail -> RE: Ken Burns muses on the 150 th anniversary of Fort Sumpter (4/13/2011 5:26:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Lincoln coming from Ill bordered those states and was in some pain about taking away that livlihood as well, after all, he was eventually a republican.... Lincoln was never a supporter of slavery and famously said if he could save the union by freeing some, all or no slaves, that's what he would do. While it was begrudgingly, he fucking sure did support it with both fuckin feet. And he said the lines you reference in the context of if it would save the union as the bottom line to that. And that was 1862 when the discourse was regarding the emancipation proclaimation and allowing blacks into the army as soldiery.

Edwynn -> RE: Ken Burns muses on the 150 th anniversary of Fort Sumpter (4/13/2011 8:08:26 AM)
But those who stomped the opposition then are wishing to stomp yet again and are grateful for the reminder of past glory, for lack of anything better. This requires an assumption contrary to actual fact, that the stomped have remained still all the while, this being obviously the case with the stompers, and their characteristic assumption of the rest of the world outside of their own narrow understanding thereby. Times are not good at present, the politicians do everything in opposition to what they were elected to do, the wars still go on, America is held in low regard by much of the world. Groping for respectability could be understandable here, however far back the reach required.

slvemike4u -> RE: Ken Burns muses on the 150 th anniversary of Fort Sumpter (4/13/2011 8:18:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn But those who stomped the opposition then are wishing to stomp yet again and are grateful for the reminder of past glory, for lack of anything better. This requires an assumption contrary to actual fact, that the stomped have remained still all the while, this being obviously the case with the stompers, and their characteristic assumption of the rest of the world thereby. Times are not good at present, the politicians do everything in opposition to what they were elected to do, the wars still go on, America is held in low regard by much of the world. Groping for respectability could be understandable here, however far back the reach required. No derailments here....now shoo doggy .

Edwynn -> RE: Ken Burns muses on the 150 th anniversary of Fort Sumpter (4/13/2011 8:35:17 AM)
Here's another derailment, unwelcome as it may be. When someone is incapable of moving beyond events transpiring 4-6 generations prior to his own lifetime, most could make the assumption than there might be a significant event in his actual life that he is incapable of moving beyond as well.

slvemike4u -> RE: Ken Burns muses on the 150 th anniversary of Fort Sumpter (4/13/2011 8:55:42 AM)
Are you still here ? Didn't I tell you to schooo ?

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Ken Burns muses on the 150 th anniversary of Fort Sumpter (4/13/2011 9:07:01 AM)
State's Rights my ass... "Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union ... The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution." "A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union... Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery -- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin." "The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. .... A brief history of the rise, progress, and policy of anti-slavery and the political organization into whose hands the administration of the Federal Government has been committed will fully justify the pronounced verdict of the people of Georgia. The party of Lincoln, called the Republican party, under its present name and organization, is of recent origin. It is admitted to be an anti-slavery party. While it attracts to itself by its creed the scattered advocates of exploded political heresies, of condemned theories in political economy, the advocates of commercial restrictions, of protection, of special privileges, of waste and corruption in the administration of Government, anti-slavery is its mission and its purpose. By anti-slavery it is made a power in the state." "A Declaration of the Causes which Impel the State of Texas to Secede from the Federal Union. .... In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color -- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States." We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable." That in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states."

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.046875