Dylan bows in China

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slvemike4u -> Dylan bows in China (4/12/2011 8:22:50 AM)
Catching up on some reading I came across this in the Times Op-ed,in light of the "China Scolds the US" thread I thought it was interesting. http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/11/an-american-tragedy/ Personally it is a bit distressing,though not totally unsurprising as I have read many of his past interviews,to hear how far Dylan distances himself from the very messages his music conveyed.I viewed most of the 60's protest music only in retrospect due to age....but though young during the 60's I did in fact live them...so my retrospect was done in light of personnel memories....marrying the music to images the 60's evoked Dylan came to represent that segment of the music industry that had the balls and the genius to take on the power structure....and do it in such a way that half the time the ones holding the levers weren't even aware of all the ways they were being lampooned. Sad indeed to here this man now declare that it was all in pursuit of advancing a career....and nothing more.

TheRaptorJesus -> RE: Dylan bows in China (4/12/2011 8:38:08 AM)
He was the greatest lyricist of all time and was essentially the embodiment of "cool". Then he became a shell of himself in almost every way to the point of self-parody.

Real0ne -> RE: Dylan bows in China (4/12/2011 8:50:57 AM)
yeh but COINTELPRO successfully infiltrated and dispersed the groups that were capable of doing anything to CHANGE matters, combined with taking out MLKing and others for peace and freedom.

slvemike4u -> RE: Dylan bows in China (4/12/2011 9:14:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheRaptorJesus He was the greatest lyricist of all time and was essentially the embodiment of "cool". Then he became a shell of himself in almost every way to the point of self-parody. If that were all there was to it,that would be one thing.....but in countless interviews he has asserted that he never meant to be,nor did he want to be the voice of a generation or of a movement.That is what I find a little sad....his lyrics said so much,to think that it was all for success.....without more gravity and meaning is distressing.

eihwaz -> RE: Dylan bows in China (4/12/2011 9:35:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: TheRaptorJesus He was the greatest lyricist of all time and was essentially the embodiment of "cool". Then he became a shell of himself in almost every way to the point of self-parody. If that were all there was to it,that would be one thing.....but in countless interviews he has asserted that he never meant to be,nor did he want to be the voice of a generation or of a movement.That is what I find a little sad....his lyrics said so much,to think that it was all for success.....without more gravity and meaning is distressing. He was always an artist and careerist first, a chameleon with a particular genius for expressing the zeitgeist. Other than writing songs, he never engaged with any of the political or social causes of his time, much less risked anything in doing so. I've always loved his work, but quickly lost respect for him as a person or even a public persona. Sad but true that great artists have often not been such great people.

LadyPact -> RE: Dylan bows in China (4/12/2011 9:49:03 AM)
I think you might want to check your link, mike.

slvemike4u -> RE: Dylan bows in China (4/12/2011 10:02:26 AM)
All true.but it is not often that they disavow the very substance of their greatness.Finding out that a great writer is,in private,a complete dilettante,does not in and of itself cheapen the work.Yet when the artist himself cheapens or disavows his own work.....this is a disappointment. Well that's my opinion ...for what it is worth [:)]

Edwynn -> RE: Dylan bows in China (4/12/2011 10:59:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact I think you might want to check your link, mike. Repeated for extra hint. Any case, Dylan is a born iconoclast, so in some manner all this 'disappointment' at his various actions and comments through the years is actully somewhat consistent in that regard with what he started out doing. He's never stayed in one place either artistically or or philosophically for all that long. It also appears to me that he does not get much out of life by merely reading about it, and we've seen before where he accepts or fully embraces a new philosophy or religion or participatory venture, some of us missing out on the possibility that he may not be doing these things by way of calm calculation but rather that he just wants to experience fully whatever it is. He has also never spoken entirely honestly or truthfully, and I understand why to some extent. Different public figures have different methods of attempting to retain some corner of privacy, and Dylan attracting a more 'thoughtful' crowd than most always had to deal with the most penetrating and intrusive questions. I've noticed the pattern for a long time of his purposeful calculation of answers so as to evoke a 'disappointing' response. He intentionally exaggerates the negativity or cynicism of whatever his genuine thoughts are. I could easily imagine myself shrinking in horror as masses of people of all sorts drafted me into an army I was hardly aware of plunked the General's stars on my coat breast and demanded that I lead them, and that was my job and my only purpose in life from now until the war was won. He's been running from that ever since.

slvemike4u -> RE: Dylan bows in China (4/12/2011 11:17:21 AM)
Why oh why did it take so long for someone(thanks LP) to come a long and point out I had the wrong opinion piece linked there....[:D],lets try this again http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/10/opinion/10dowd.html I do hope this actually takes one to the Maureen Dowd piece,if not she can be found at the NY Times op-ed site...again thanks LP [:)]

slvemike4u -> RE: Dylan bows in China (4/12/2011 11:26:48 AM)
Fuck all the Times is being difficult with their links.The problem seems to be that this is not an op-ed from today's paper...and as such is archived ,I got there from going to the op-ed page....scrolling down and clicking on a letter written in response to this piece.In the letter is a link to the actual article...should anyone be interested enough to follow such byzantine directions [:)].Should someone else be deft enough to find a direct link,I would be most grateful. Otherwise all I can do is apologize to everyone for my deficiencies [:)] mike

TheRaptorJesus -> RE: Dylan bows in China (4/12/2011 11:33:20 AM)
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/10/opinion/10dowd.html?_r=1 Copy and paste that into the original post so people who click on it will be directed properly. I find myself fortunate that when I ventured into Dylan's catalogue, I started with the early stuff and read and watched interviews from that time period. It's a shame he's become what he has. It's also sad as an artist to see someone peak so early. Maybe it's my fault as the reader/listener, but from what I can tell, he peaked in his mid-20's. But even mid-20's Dylan managed to be superior to Ray Davies, Roger Waters, Maynard James Keenan, and John Lennon. It's a shame he didn't continue to progress.

Kirata -> RE: Dylan bows in China (4/12/2011 11:35:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Should someone else be deft enough to find a direct link,I would be most grateful. Here ya go... http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/10/opinion/10dowd.html If you mouse-over the link in your post you'll see that the underline extends four spaces beyond the end of the URL. One mustn't put blank spaces anywhere in a URL. They annoy the server. [:D] K.

slvemike4u -> RE: Dylan bows in China (4/12/2011 11:39:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheRaptorJesus http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/10/opinion/10dowd.html?_r=1 Copy and paste that into the original post so people who click on it will be directed properly. I find myself fortunate that when I ventured into Dylan's catalogue, I started with the early stuff and read and watched interviews from that time period. It's a shame he's become what he has. It's also sad as an artist to see someone peak so early. Maybe it's my fault as the reader/listener, but from what I can tell, he peaked in his mid-20's. But even mid-20's Dylan managed to be superior to Ray Davies, Roger Waters, Maynard James Keenan, and John Lennon. It's a shame he didn't continue to progress. Too late to edit the original post...but if they peruse the thread...they will find it.Thanks be the Raptor [:)] Not so sure I can agree with the John Lennon part....but certainly no argument with the others I would consider he and Lennon as peers.

slvemike4u -> RE: Dylan bows in China (4/12/2011 11:42:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Should someone else be deft enough to find a direct link,I would be most grateful. Here ya go... http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/10/opinion/10dowd.html If you mouse-over the link in your post you'll see that the underline extends four spaces beyond the end of the URL. One mustn't put blank spaces anywhere in a URL. They annoy the server. [:D] K. Learn something new every day.Thank you Kirata...I came late to the day with these damm things...but slowly I am catching up,who knows there might actually come a time when I type with more than two fingers [:)]

TheRaptorJesus -> RE: Dylan bows in China (4/12/2011 11:46:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: TheRaptorJesus http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/10/opinion/10dowd.html?_r=1 Copy and paste that into the original post so people who click on it will be directed properly. I find myself fortunate that when I ventured into Dylan's catalogue, I started with the early stuff and read and watched interviews from that time period. It's a shame he's become what he has. It's also sad as an artist to see someone peak so early. Maybe it's my fault as the reader/listener, but from what I can tell, he peaked in his mid-20's. But even mid-20's Dylan managed to be superior to Ray Davies, Roger Waters, Maynard James Keenan, and John Lennon. It's a shame he didn't continue to progress. Too late to edit the original post...but if they peruse the thread...they will find it.Thanks be the Raptor [:)] Not so sure I can agree with the John Lennon part....but certainly no argument with the others I would consider he and Lennon as peers. I'd call Lennon easily the worst lyricist of that group. I wouldn't call him a peer of the others and really only mentioned him because a lot of people do. Though he's sort of apropos talking about Dylan and hypocrisy in his words. But that's another story for another day.

MrRodgers -> RE: Dylan bows in China (4/12/2011 12:07:18 PM)
Slow news day hey ? Kinkroids, a whole article on Dylan and his 'Chinese' concert ? So what ? What the hell is little ole Bob Dylan supposed to do ? Where are all of the articles ney, the volumes and continuing so...on how virtually the entire capitalist community of western civilization, has not only simply blown off such ignominy but has jumped right in fucking bed with these very, very p r o f i t a b l e communist fascists and are joining in on the digitalization of the very oppression that allegedly decry ? The whole concept of Milton Friedman's Nobel Prize was that capitalism begets freedom when we see...it can do quite the opposite. This is self-flagelation that some how the 'left' has sinned being such profit-seekers. Shame on him and you for wanting to tax the rich...and be rich.

slvemike4u -> RE: Dylan bows in China (4/12/2011 12:55:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Slow news day hey ? Kinkroids, a whole article on Dylan and his 'Chinese' concert ? So what ? What the hell is little ole Bob Dylan supposed to do ? Where are all of the articles ney, the volumes and continuing so...on how virtually the entire capitalist community of western civilization, has not only simply blown off such ignominy but has jumped right in fucking bed with these very, very p r o f i t a b l e communist fascists and are joining in on the digitalization of the very oppression that allegedly decry ? The whole concept of Milton Friedman's Nobel Prize was that capitalism begets freedom when we see...it can do quite the opposite. This is self-flagelation that some how the 'left' has sinned being such profit-seekers. Shame on him and you for wanting to tax the rich...and be rich. Not sure what brought this on.....I do know this is only one little thread amongst many...and if this one doesn't interest you,all you need do is pass it by,Nothing in here is about the "left" per se,it is about Dylan certainly not about me ceptin of course what you are injecting. Either way ,it's no bother ,the thread does not suit your taste and I am nothing more than a "posturing" lefty....waiting to get rich [:)].

stellauk -> RE: Dylan bows in China (4/12/2011 2:35:31 PM)
As a poet Dylan is great, but I'm afraid that for me, as a lyricist Smokey Robinson leaves him standing. No great concepts or messages but when it comes to rhyme, metre, expression and fitting the words of a song to its music I've yet to see someone do it as neatly and consistently as Smokey Robinson. Let me show you what I mean.. Mary Wells - My Guy Here's Mary Wells singing a Smokey Robinson number.. I'm sticking to my guy like a stamp to a letter Like birds of a feather, we stick together I'm telling you from the start I can't be torn apart From my guy The entire song is almost in perfect rhyme and metre. The Temptations - My Girl Here's another.. I got sunshine on a cloudy day When it's cold outside I got the month of May I guess you'd say What can make me feel this way My girl And this isn't just one song, or a few, this is virtually every single song that Robinson wrote. You want more examples? 'Tracks of my tears', 'I'll second that emotion', 'Tears of a clown', and the exact same thing is reproduced over, and over and over again. Now think about what every hip hop and rap artist is trying to do. Smokey Robinson is a legend. At his peak, Bob Dylan could be seen as perhaps the greatest English language poet. This is how I see him, as a poet, and not as a lyricist. Yes he sings, yes there's music to his words, but it's all poetry. Seen in this context, and his tremendous impact on American culture in the 1960's, you could easily form an argument for him being one of the great poets, there alongside Milton, Burns, Sylvia Plaith, Shakespeare (but then again I see Shakespeare as a bard and a playwright, again totally different conventions to poetry). This is perhaps why he refuses to explain what lies in the meaning of his words. Poetry can mean anything to anyone, it's words in an art form. I will also vector the opinion that John Lennon was the worst.. To me one of the weakest lyricists had to be Jim Morrison of The Doors. The Doors - Riders on the Storm No argument about it, this is great music. But for me I'm sorry, but the lyrics are going nowhere. There's even places where the words are misused and don't collocate. Now I'm prepared to argue that Paul MacCartney was the creative genius behind the Beatles, but it needed John Lennon to reach the people. The Beatles - You've Got To Hide Your Love Away This is John Lennon emulating Bob Dylan, and doing a credible job writing a song about homosexuality in Britain in the 1960's. However Lennon was a lyricist, not a poet. Dylan's influence did reach Britain. Here's another example. Donovan - Catch The Wind This is an early number by Scottish singer songwriter Donovan from his successful collaboration with Mickie Most in the 1960's. This is a song which could have easily been written by Bob Dylan. But Dylan was influenced himself by others almost as much as he himself influenced others, and some of his songs themselves can be quite tactfully described as emulations or borrowings. Some of the melody from 'Blowin' in the wind' came from the slave song 'No more auction block'. To me measuring someone's greatness as an artist has got nothing to do with the quality of their work, but in how they influence culture and other people. Certainly Bob Dylan was an influence in the 1960's, but so too was Elvis Presley, Ray Charles, jackie DeShannon, Burt Bacharach, Neil Diamond, Del Shannon, the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Steve Winwood, Diana Ross, Quincy Jones, the Mamas and Papas, and so many others.

Edwynn -> RE: Dylan bows in China (4/12/2011 4:59:22 PM)
I saw a Brian Holland (Holland-Dozier-Holland) interview years ago and, being asked about having so many Mowtown hits in the Top Ten at the same time as The Beatles, I remember him saying "people thought our competition was across the pond. No it wasn't! It was down the hall!" He was speaking of course of Smokey Robinson and other Mowtown writers, and explained that there was so much competition form each other that your (or your team's) song had to be really good to get there first for the valuable studio time, there being essentially one band ("the Funk Brothers"), one studio, etc. If someone else beat you to it they might wind up doing two, even three songs while the other writers waited.

MrRodgers -> RE: Dylan bows in China (4/12/2011 6:22:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Slow news day hey ? Kinkroids, a whole article on Dylan and his 'Chinese' concert ? So what ? What the hell is little ole Bob Dylan supposed to do ? Where are all of the articles ney, the volumes and continuing so...on how virtually the entire capitalist community of western civilization, has not only simply blown off such ignominy but has jumped right in fucking bed with these very, very p r o f i t a b l e communist fascists and are joining in on the digitalization of the very oppression that allegedly decry ? The whole concept of Milton Friedman's Nobel Prize was that capitalism begets freedom when we see...it can do quite the opposite. This is self-flagelation that some how the 'left' has sinned being such profit-seekers. Shame on him and you for wanting to tax the rich...and be rich. Not sure what brought this on.....I do know this is only one little thread amongst many...and if this one doesn't interest you,all you need do is pass it by,Nothing in here is about the "left" per se,it is about Dylan certainly not about me ceptin of course what you are injecting. Either way ,it's no bother ,the thread does not suit your taste and I am nothing more than a "posturing" lefty....waiting to get rich [:)]. The OP is 'Dylan bows in China.' All who want to make money on or with the Chinese...bows to China. Furthermore, Dylan was denigrated as was Lennon for their lefty, liberal, dreamy message about just how cynical the world is yet oh so beautiful it could be if just...

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