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Real Punishments? - 5/9/2006 5:23:17 AM

Anachronox

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My wife and I have been married for about a year and a half now, and we have always played a good deal, and have attempted to get into a 24/7 lifestyle, but we have run into a number of problems. One thing that is certainly my fault, is that if she says, for instance, she wants me to ask her permission to go to the bathroom everytime before I go. Well, what happens before long is that I quit asking and she quits caring that im not, and a big reason she says is because she doesnt know how to punish me for things like that. The problem is she knows everything like whipings and such, I enjoy all of that. So what we are trying to come up with are things that actually are punishments. We tried the whole fine, your not getting anything from me, but that doesnt work because we both want it. One thing she said, because I hate mayonaise, would be to put a ring gag in my mouth and feed my spoonfulls of that, yeesh. Just wondering if anyone else had faced this situation and what they did about it, or if anyone had any creative punishments that would work for someone who lies pain and humiliation.

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RE: Real Punishments? - 5/9/2006 5:46:52 AM

Lashra

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My sub craves pain and humilation so punishing him that way is in no way a punishment. I've found what works best is denying him tv/computer priviledges. These are also two of his favorite things and quite frankly if he is going to act like a child then I will treat him like one.

Its particulary fun when his macho brother comes over (he comes from a very old school type family) he will find him pouting over the fact that he can't play video games with him. In fact I make it a POINT to say in front of his brother "J can't play (insert video game name here) with you today because he didn't mail the letters I told him to mail."

Talk about red faced and pouting.

After that happens he suddenly gains a better memory for what I ask of him to do. Of course his brother ribs him all the time about being *whipped* but thats ok, he knows if he is a good boy he will get *whipped* and hard

~Lashra

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RE: Real Punishments? - 5/9/2006 8:10:48 AM

Proprietrix

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A bunch of different thoughts on this situation:

You may want to back up and re-analyze what it is the two of you want from a power exchange relationship. It sounds like both of you have a bit of indifference toward the whole bathroom thing. Believe me, if your seeking permission to go to the bathroom is something that's truly important to her, she isn't going to just let it slide until it never happens. Rarely do people become blasé about things they feel passionate about.
The two of you may want to think back to why this rule was created in the first place. Was it because you read it in an S&M book? Saw other couples on the internet doing it? Assumed it was "part of a 24/7"? Sometimes people get so focused on the "This is how it's supposed to be done", that they forget they are the ones who get to decide. She and you are the ones who get to make the boundaries of the relationship and there's nothing that you have to do, just because others are doing it.

If you're just starting the 24/7 lifestyle, you may want to begin with a broader focus. (Bathroom permission is a very micro-managed activity.) She, as a new 24/7 Mistress, might not be ready for a bunch of micro-managing yet. Combine micro-management of bathroom useage, with play time, and meals, and work, and finances, and sleep patterns, and what's on TV, and sexuality, and clothing.... if she's new to this, she might be feeling overwhelmed. She might need to take control of a few aspects of her submissive at a time. 1 new thing a week/month, or whatever.

Your mentioning punishment... but it sounds like there was no initial training. I can't punish someone for neglecting to do something I never properly trained them to do in the first place.

And finally, non-corporal punishment. I always wonder why folks in this lifestyle use so much punishment, when it's been proven that intermittent positive reinforcement works much better for behavior modification. And why "punishments" in this lifestyle are usually activities the submissive enjoys. The whole concept baffles me.
There is a difference between punishing and disciplining. When we punish, we are meeting out penalties. When we discipline, we are teaching via consequences. Your Mistress may want to consider what her goal is. Does she want to inflict a penalty for your behavior, or does she want to show you the consequences of your current behavior so that you'll change it to the behavior she desires? Discipline is usually a natural consequence that relates directly to the offense. Even in punishment, I make the punishment fit the crime.

To use your specific example, if I were training a submissive to ask permission before using the restroom. The first thing I would do is have you install a hasp and padlock on the bathroom door, and you don't get a key. That has just depleted your chances of not asking. When you get to the door and try to open it... ooops, better go ask Mistress! After a certain amount of time (I'm a fan of 21 days), the padlock is left unlocked, but still hanging through the hasp. Eventually the padlock is removed. Then, in time, the hasp is also removed. And you as the submissive will be the one in there with a screwdriver removing it and touching up the paint.
At this point, non-compliance with the asking rule can only happen for 2 reasons. Either you forgot to ask or you chose not to. If you forgot, you need to be re-disciplined (re-trained). If you chose not to ask, then punishment might be warranted. To keep with my theme of "punishment must fit the crime", I would make your punishment directly coincide with bathroom privileges. That might be putting a diaper on you, giving you a bucket to use instead (that you must clean of course), having you write a lengthy essay on potty-training, etc..., but it definitely wouldn't have anything to do with being whipped or played with in a dungeon/bedroom scene.

Good luck to both of you in your new adventure. :)

< Message edited by Proprietrix -- 5/9/2006 8:11:24 AM >

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RE: Real Punishments? - 5/9/2006 8:12:57 AM

MdmSarah

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Being able to sit at table and enjoy a meal with me is a priveledge. Being able to sleep beside me is a priveledge. Being a toy for my amusement for an evening is a priveledge. And so on...

I agree. Removal of priveledge is the best punishment when it's called for.

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RE: Real Punishments? - 5/9/2006 11:09:55 AM

thetammyjo

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I see a commong problem in your arrangement.

The dominant has set up rules for some reason other than it pleases her and works out well with her personality and desires.

I've done it myself -- always fails because unless I as the dominant can follow through, the rules have no value and in fact send the message that the authority is shallow and that I cannot be trusted to even fulfill those things I set up.

She and you should only set up rules which she can feel in her core and which at her core of clear punishments assigned to them. This way she will always expect them to be followed and insist on them being followed.

Having a solid yet small set of rules will allow you both to internalize them and I personally think that when things are internalized they run smoother.

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RE: Real Punishments? - 5/13/2006 12:06:53 PM

cheekysmile

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ohhh punishments...good subject..see there are some that get off from being naughty, some like the 'can i get away with it' notion, i learnt the hard way when i pushed at rules and found the hurt of my Mistress saying you disapoint Me, came crushing like a two be fore to my heart....

when a child pushs the limits and watches for the reaction....are they playing a game? or are they sounding out the boundries....do they feel the wrath of the parent when they know they done wrong....are they really sorry for what they did wrong, did you show your displeasure.....

see when i do something wrong be it on purpose or unwitingly my Mistress shows Her wrath, the tone of voice and the body language has me cowering (in a good way)...the sheer fact i done wrong and am now gonna be punnished for it is very painfull mentally and physically...She knows how to punnish me and She knows its effective.

a good punnishment is to have time to think about it, then to talk about it, then find (whilst communicating this) a way for it to not happen again...communication is vital in this learning fase....to ignore the error is to show a weak rule..

for the bathroom thing here next time the rule is broken have the person who broke it stand by you ALL the time, cuff em to you if need be....then permission to go anywhere will need to be given....smiles...

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RE: Real Punishments? - 5/13/2006 12:44:59 PM

MsMarguerite

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Well I have to say that what I do when I punish someone who likes pain and humiliation is to stand them in a corner, totally silent for a period of time. If they make noise, then for every minute they do, that is another day they are not allowed to climax.

I also enforce chastity in my subs, but rather than giving them the easy out of a locking device, I have them masturbate almost to climax, and then stop. They are instructed to keep themselves at a very high excitement level (if 10 is climax, then 9 is where they are supposed to stay) for a certain period of time. As the training goes on, the amount of time they are required to stay excited is extended.

If I want them to suffer more, then I will have them bring me to climax but not allow them to until a few days later, depending on how frequently they normally do. There is no reason for your wife to deny herself, if you have been bad.

Just a few thoughts.
Ms. Marguerite

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RE: Real Punishments? - 5/13/2006 2:58:36 PM

perverseangelic

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My Owner and I have been talking about this lately.

That is, we both want him to exert more control, and he wants me to do more things for him, however, he doesn't get any pleasure out of punishing me. He tells me to do something, and for the most part I do it, but soemtimes I'm not good, and soemtimes I push him. When I push, he tends to ignore it, because it doesn't bring him pleasure to bring me back into line. He says that if I won't obey him, then there's no point in doing this, so he'll stop inforcing commands.

To me, this reads as his disinterest in me obeying, so I tend to missbehave more, because I figure he doesn't care if I behave. It isn't that he doesn't care, it's just that he think that my being his should make his life =easier= not add to the list of things he has to remember to do, and enforce.

I'm reading this thread with interest in hopes that someone will drop some ideas that we can use over here.

Thank you, all.

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RE: Real Punishments? - 5/13/2006 6:50:17 PM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic

My Owner and I have been talking about this lately.

That is, we both want him to exert more control, and he wants me to do more things for him, however, he doesn't get any pleasure out of punishing me. He tells me to do something, and for the most part I do it, but soemtimes I'm not good, and soemtimes I push him. When I push, he tends to ignore it, because it doesn't bring him pleasure to bring me back into line. He says that if I won't obey him, then there's no point in doing this, so he'll stop inforcing commands.

To me, this reads as his disinterest in me obeying, so I tend to missbehave more, because I figure he doesn't care if I behave. It isn't that he doesn't care, it's just that he think that my being his should make his life =easier= not add to the list of things he has to remember to do, and enforce.

I'm reading this thread with interest in hopes that someone will drop some ideas that we can use over here.

Thank you, all.

I have to say that I can understand what you master feels and says because I feel the same way.

If a submissive or a slave doesn't obey me that means to me that we need to have "A Talk" about what is going on. If there is a problem that is causing a break down in authority and obedience I can only deal with it once I am aware of it.

I mean, I didn't buy said slave in a market place somewhere, I didn't capture him among the enemy troops and get him as my share of booty, and I didn't buy out a debt for him so he serves me to repay it. He (or she) walked into it with their eyes wide open. They stop wishing to serve, there's the door, don't let it hit you on the way out.

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RE: Real Punishments? - 5/13/2006 6:58:46 PM

fastlane

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Personally, I think punishments should only be handed out by God.

O.K., who is ready to be spanked by me?

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RE: Real Punishments? - 5/13/2006 8:27:46 PM

HouseofBear

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First of all, I only make rules about things that are important to me. I expect a sub/slave to have enough sense to know when to go to the bathroom and to not make a big deal about it. I am not into micromanagement, chuckles. On things that are important, I try to choose a punishment that fits the crime, usually the withdrawal of some sort of a privilege or cornertime, if discussing the behavior does not work first.

Lady Ursa

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RE: Real Punishments? - 5/13/2006 9:08:03 PM

theRose4U

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quote:

He tells me to do something, and for the most part I do it, but soemtimes I'm not good, and soemtimes I push him. When I push, he tends to ignore it, because it doesn't bring him pleasure to bring me back into line. He says that if I won't obey him, then there's no point in doing this, so he'll stop inforcing commands.

I have the same point of view. Either one wants to submit and do their best or they don't...period. Playing games of I'm going to submit a little bit but not all the way so you'll punish me isn't a game that I choose to play. Last boy tried that one...that's a big reason he's a previous.

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RE: Real Punishments? - 5/14/2006 11:56:57 AM

perverseangelic

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Hrm. Thank you, all. It helps to know that others feel this way.

I don't like to think that I play games, and for the most part I think I don't. I just feel that misbehaving should have consequences, especially if it wasn't a willfull misbehaviour (that is, that I broke a rule through accident or forgetfulness. If I broke it willfully, then having it aknowledged at all is reinforcing negative behavior).

It's hard to be consistantly self-motivated to wash dishes and clean house and be good. Sometimes it's that I'm lazy, I know, but it -is- hard to alway remember who and what I am.

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RE: Real Punishments? - 5/14/2006 7:21:05 PM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic

Hrm. Thank you, all. It helps to know that others feel this way.

I don't like to think that I play games, and for the most part I think I don't. I just feel that misbehaving should have consequences, especially if it wasn't a willfull misbehaviour (that is, that I broke a rule through accident or forgetfulness. If I broke it willfully, then having it aknowledged at all is reinforcing negative behavior).

It's hard to be consistantly self-motivated to wash dishes and clean house and be good. Sometimes it's that I'm lazy, I know, but it -is- hard to alway remember who and what I am.

This sounds like an issue to discuss with your dominant.

It is, in my opinion and experience, unwise and unrealistic to expect somone to serve without positive feedback at least. Ask your dominant to help you remain focused or to give you positive feedback. That isn't asking too much in my opinion.

I know that Fox never draws attention to what he does but when I notice I always say "thank you" or "who's my good kit" or "what a good boy" to him and that makes him much more likely to behave well in the future. And it makes me feel like a good person to when I acknowledge his good services.

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Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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