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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/16/2011 5:03:52 PM

tweakabelle

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Having read all of Goldstone's pronouncements on this issue, and as much of the related data as I could, my understanding of the state of affairs is as follows:

Out of the 4 authors of the Goldstone Report, one (Goldstone) appears to have changed his mind about one charge. Evidence that has emerged subsequently meant that "civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy" by Israel, Goldstone now tells us. Pointedly, Goldstone asserts that had Israel co-operated with his inquiry in the first place, the charge might never have been laid.

After the furore that erupted following Goldstone's retraction of this single charge, Goldstone felt obliged to clarify his position: " as presently advised I have no reason to believe any part of the report needs to be reconsidered at this time."* Goldstone's stated reasons for this change of heart appear questionable - as I have shown in a previous post (#9).

None of the other 3 members of the Goldstone panel agreed with Goldstone's revised position. They insisted that the original report stood as published:
"The report of the fact-finding mission contains the conclusions made after diligent, independent and objective consideration of the information related to the events within our mandate, and careful assessment of its reliability and credibility. We firmly stand by these conclusions."^

So, in total, one out of four members of the fact finding mission has changed his mind, for questionable reasons, about one specific charge (out of 36 IIRC). What does that amount to?

Does all this suggest that we must ask: What really caused Goldstone to change his mind on that one specific matter? Are Goldstone's stated reasons convincing? Why has he alone changed his mind?

* http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110406/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_un_report_5
^http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/apr/14/goldstone-report-statement-un-gaza

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/16/2011 5:11:36 PM >

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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/16/2011 5:29:01 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rockspider
If you want to come and kill me and the people i hold dear, I will fight you with all means at my disposal. Quite honestly I don´t see the Duke of Queensbury rules (or any other conventions) has any significanse in that situation. Certainly the arabic world has never payed heed to any of that kind of niceties and i cheer whenever the Israelis give them another hiding.

No shit. There's a lot that I find troubling about the way that Israel conducts herself, but on a fundamental level I can't fault them for their ruthlessness. The whole world stood by and watched 6 million of them get slaughtered like sheep, and they're going to do whatever it takes to ensure that it never happens again. Any country or terrorist organization that chooses to fuck with them ought to know what they're getting themselves into. The choice is simple - leave them alone, or pay whatever price the Israelis decide to charge you.

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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/16/2011 8:17:44 PM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: rockspider
If you want to come and kill me and the people i hold dear, I will fight you with all means at my disposal. Quite honestly I don´t see the Duke of Queensbury rules (or any other conventions) has any significanse in that situation. Certainly the arabic world has never payed heed to any of that kind of niceties and i cheer whenever the Israelis give them another hiding.

No shit. There's a lot that I find troubling about the way that Israel conducts herself, but on a fundamental level I can't fault them for their ruthlessness. The whole world stood by and watched 6 million of them get slaughtered like sheep, and they're going to do whatever it takes to ensure that it never happens again. Any country or terrorist organization that chooses to fuck with them ought to know what they're getting themselves into. The choice is simple - leave them alone, or pay whatever price the Israelis decide to charge you.

All of that is understood....but they now find themselves in the position of being an occupying force...as much as the world has to answer for where the past is concerned....it still doesn't equate to a veritable free pass in how they conduct themselves as an occupying force.
I am still rather behind the curve on all of these links...but I know enough about the situation to acknowledge that there are those in Israel itself who are troubled a great deal about how the State is conducting itself...that in itself gives me pause.

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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/16/2011 8:52:56 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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You're right, of course, Mike. It's an ugly and convoluted situation, not given to simple, one-paragraph summaries. I still think, though, that at the end of the day, Israel is fundamentally right to do whatever they need to do to defend themselves. I don't like a lot of the things they do, but if they feel that's the way they need to do it, as far as I'm concerned they get that free pass. I would much rather they found a way to do a few things much differently than they do, but to me the bottom line is - 6,000,000 murdered. Never again.

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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/16/2011 9:15:44 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

You're right, of course, Mike. It's an ugly and convoluted situation, not given to simple, one-paragraph summaries. I still think, though, that at the end of the day, Israel is fundamentally right to do whatever they need to do to defend themselves. I don't like a lot of the things they do, but if they feel that's the way they need to do it, as far as I'm concerned they get that free pass. I would much rather they found a way to do a few things much differently than they do, but to me the bottom line is - 6,000,000 murdered. Never again.

Can we all agree that Holocaust was an unimaginably horrific never-to-be-repeated event?

One of the measures the world adopted post-WW2 to prevent such horrors re-occurring was the Geneva Conventions. The idea of international humanitarian law also seeks to hold those who commit crimes against humanity accountable to an international standard.

So it can be argued that letting standards slip on war crimes - arguing that Group X or Group Y is not accountable because of a particular circumstance or history - would be the last thing one should so in order to prevent another Holocaust. It's opening the door to precisely that which we need to prevent.

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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/16/2011 9:44:23 PM

slvemike4u

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While I agree with "never again"...and any thinking,feeling human would...I do not think that equates to a free pass.Defend themselves ....of course and most definitely.But that defence must remain within the constraints of how a civilized nation is expected to comport itself where non combatents are concerned.

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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/16/2011 10:39:30 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

While I agree with "never again"...and any thinking,feeling human would...I do not think that equates to a free pass.Defend themselves ....of course and most definitely.But that defence must remain within the constraints of how a civilized nation is expected to comport itself where non combatents are concerned.

Yes. Every Nation, including Israel of course, has a legitimate right of self defence. Israel's interpretation of that right is properly the subject of another thread.

You are correct to point out that any legitimate expression of that lawful right must itself be lawful, ie. be completely within the limits of international law. There is no such thing as a 'right' to break international law.

The OP is about whether Hamas and Israel exceeded their legal rights during Cast Lead and ventured into war crimes. Goldstone's Report made allegations against both sides. There is neither dispute nor doubt that Hamas did. So the remaining focus is on Israeli actions.

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RE: What now with the Goldstone Report? - 4/24/2011 12:50:05 AM

tweakabelle

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One of the major incidents covered in the Goldstone Report was the al-Faroukha Street incident. 4 Israeli mortars landed in crowded streets at about 345 pm in the afternoon during Cast Lead. Dozens of civilians were killed just metres from a school housing over a 1600 civilians taking shelter from the war. The dead included many children and infants.

Israeli newspaper Haaretz has just published its findings after lengthy research, including interviewing many of the leading players and witnesses. Click on this link to read it in full. Well worth the effort IMHO.

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