RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism.

RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. (Full Version)

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Kirata -> RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. (4/16/2011 9:17:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn Reading comprehension. That's your friend. But apparently not yours... through violence the long night of men's dependence on God, on other men, and on things external to themselves will finally end... theory becomes criticism, not for the sake of stating the truth in speech, but to destroy the enemy: Its [criticism's] essential feeling is indignation, its essential task denunciation. . . . It is not a matter of knowing whether the opponent is a noble, equal-born, or interesting opponent; what matters is to strike him. Good luck with ending "the long of night" of human's depending on each other. And remember to keep pounding away with criticism. [:D] K.

provfivetine -> RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. (4/16/2011 9:29:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fellow quote: Marxism is simply a metaphysical doctrine, and Karl Marx himself was nothing but a religious eschatologist. His ideas may be worthy of discussion in an academic classroom setting, but anyone who takes them seriously is suffering from profound intellectual confusion. I do not agree with this statement. Marx economic theory is widely accepted, and not only in academic setting. The question is how much his treatment of society can be applied to today's economic-social environment? It was developed for early, relatively simple form of capitalism. Marx focused on property and class structure and suggested the ways to change it. I think the society today is getting simplified with corporatism, appearance of the "super-class", new numerous lumpenproletariat, serfs etc... and these factors make Marx's ideas popular again. Obama is often called a Marxist. He does not fit the description though. He never attacks private property structure, he did not take any advantage of nationalized banks or car companies. The only thing what he sometimes lets people know he may want (?) is to create more serfs (lower class which minimum survival is supported) out of lumpenproletariat (low wage temp workers, criminals and such). Marx's economic theory is widely accepted? By who? The labor theory of value is not accepted by any economist; even modern day analytical Marxists have long abandoned the theory. Das Kapital is riddled with contradictions. His value theory in Volume 1 contradicts his theory of production in Volume 3. Have you ever wondered why Marx labored his entire life to (unsuccessfully) solve the price-value predicament that he found himself in? He was so troubled by it that he couldn't even finish Das Kapital (it was published by Engels after Marx's death). To say that his economic theory is widely accepted is simply inaccurate. There might be a few union leaders, college students, and welfare recipients that believe in his garbled theories, but NO economics department in the entire country would endorse the pillars of Marxist theory. The economics departments are more into synthesizing neoclassical microeconomics with a Neo-Keynesian macro approach.

HannahLynHeather -> RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. (4/16/2011 9:59:15 PM)
quote: at least we are free. in what possible context can you actually believe that? hannah lynn

Marini -> RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. (4/16/2011 10:11:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather quote: at least we are free. in what possible context can you actually believe that? hannah lynn Hello hlh! I was waiting for someone to "call" me on that statement. Being free is relative. As a descendent from real slaves {not the fun type of play slavery},that were brought to America on slave ships against their will, even as bad and crappy things are, they would agree with me, when I say "I am free". Even as we spiral into a depression, compared to what my ancestors endurded, dear I am free. Free at last, free at last, thank GOD almight I am free at last. If you have issues with the "freedoms" we have today, travel back in a time machine and try your lot at slavery. Welcome to the boards!

HannahLynHeather -> RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. (4/16/2011 10:17:21 PM)
thanks for the welcome :) i will agree that compared to many other places and times we are more free. but we are not free. john lennon said it best: "and you think you're so clever and classless and free but you're still fucking peasants as far as i can see" hannah lynn

Fellow -> RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. (4/16/2011 10:43:39 PM)
quote: Marx's economic theory is widely accepted? By who? The labor theory of value is not accepted by any economist; even modern day analytical Marxists have long abandoned the theory. Das Kapital is riddled with contradictions. His value theory in Volume 1 contradicts his theory of production in Volume 3. Have you ever wondered why Marx labored his entire life to (unsuccessfully) solve the price-value predicament that he found himself in? He was so troubled by it that he couldn't even finish Das Kapital (it was published by Engels after Marx's death). To say that his economic theory is widely accepted is simply inaccurate. There might be a few union leaders, college students, and welfare recipients that believe in his garbled theories, but NO economics department in the entire country would endorse the pillars of Marxist theory. The economics departments are more into synthesizing neoclassical microeconomics with a Neo-Keynesian macro approach. Sorry, my mistake. I expressed myself incorrectly. By saying "accepted" I did not mean "agreed to". I meant: it is viewed as a contribution to the development of ideas rather than some "metaphysical doctrine" as you call it.

provfivetine -> RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. (4/16/2011 11:11:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fellow Sorry, my mistake. I expressed myself incorrectly. By saying "accepted" I did not mean "agreed to". I meant: it is viewed as a contribution to the development of ideas rather than some "metaphysical doctrine" as you call it. True, but just because Marxism is viewed as a contribution to ideas does not relinquish it from being metaphysical. When Marx was writing his thoughts, there were two dominating (German) schools of thought in his day: Hegelian spiritualism and materialism. Marx tried to blend the two to prove that socialism is bound to come with "the inexorability of a law of nature." Marx's historical materialism coupled with the mystical "material productive forces" is the epitome of a metaphysical concept. "The essence of Marxian philosophy is this: We are right because we are the spokesmen of the rising proletarian class. Discursive reasoning cannot invalidate our teachings, for they are inspired by the supreme power that determines the destiny of mankind. Our adversaries are wrong because they lack the intuition that guides our minds." Ludwig von Mises. I couldn't say it better myself...

Hippiekinkster -> RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. (4/17/2011 12:00:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather thanks for the welcome :) i will agree that compared to many other places and times we are more free. but we are not free. john lennon said it best: "and you think you're so clever and classless and free but you're still fucking peasants as far as i can see" hannah lynn Well, anyone who quotes Uncle John has a fair measure of coolness going for them. One of my favorite albums.

subfever -> RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. (4/17/2011 12:12:24 AM)
quote: He does, doesn't he? I've always felt he doesn't get anywhere near the credit he deserves for his intellect. People tend to not take him as seriously as they ought to because he's a little rough around the edges, but there's someone living in there, and if you pay attention he's often got a lot to say. I agree.

subfever -> RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. (4/17/2011 12:46:05 AM)
quote: Spreading the wealth is at odds with human nature…except in fairy books. I disagree on a fundamental level. Aside from basic survival activities, human behavior is dictated by the environment. Place a newborn Chinese male baby in the heart of London with an English family, and he will grow up exhibiting all the behavioral traits of an Englishman. Create an egalitarian environment where scarcity is non-existent and basic human needs are provided for, and after the initial adjustment period (detachment to current conditioning), humans will not be at odds with it. Your thinking is a product of your environment, what you've been exposed to and what you eventually evolved to believe as a result of that exposure, not what you're born with.

Edwynn -> RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. (4/17/2011 3:32:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn Reading comprehension. That's your friend. But apparently not yours... through violence the long night of men's dependence on God, on other men, and on things external to themselves will finally end... theory becomes criticism, not for the sake of stating the truth in speech, but to destroy the enemy: Its [criticism's] essential feeling is indignation, its essential task denunciation. . . . It is not a matter of knowing whether the opponent is a noble, equal-born, or interesting opponent; what matters is to strike him. Good luck with ending "the long of night" of human's depending on each other. And remember to keep pounding away with criticism. [:D] K. Kirata, I apologize. In all seriousness. I did indeed strike at what I took as another person's strike against a very thoughtful and quite well executed commentary and heartfelt belief of one of our best members on this site. But I have no intention to destroy. I will respond to you that that was not my intention, but your using that description makes me look back and take notice. We sometimes have to remind each other to 'take notice' of our actions. Please consider me as having read and understood and 'taken notice' here.

NorthernGent -> RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. (4/17/2011 3:50:15 AM)
Stella, the root idea of Marxism was first outlined in Marx's German Ideology, which was written about 10 years before Capital. The root idea is this: humans are different from other animals because they produce what they need to survive; what they are depends on how and what they produce; therefore, their nature is conditioned by their material conditions and their social existence determines their consciousness. Do you think this starting point in Marx's theories is near the mark? Edited to add: and the aforemetioned basic principle helps to understand how Communism incorporated systems where puruits such as the arts and religion were relegated to irrelevancy, when in fact human beings are characterised by far more than simply material conditions. Said pursuits are important in human existence because we have inspiration, intuition and feeling; we need such pursuits in order to be spiritually fulfilled. When the Germans marched into Ukraine, they were welcomed as liberators, because the Russians with their quest for Marx's ideas closed down their churches and the like.

kdsub -> RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. (4/17/2011 8:19:32 AM)
quote: after the initial adjustment period (detachment to current conditioning), humans will not be at odds with it. But you see this is not true...history proves it...saying it does not make it so Butch

subfever -> RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. (4/17/2011 11:55:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: after the initial adjustment period (detachment to current conditioning), humans will not be at odds with it. But you see this is not true...history proves it...saying it does not make it so Butch I did omit two words that would have further clarified my statement, which are "without obligation." Even so, your suggestion that we've seen an egalitarian nation in the past where scarcity was non-existent and basic human needs were provided for all, is a stretch. You only responded to one line in my post, which I often do to others myself. We're you in agreement with the rest of my post?

kdsub -> RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. (4/17/2011 1:15:57 PM)
I don't necessarily disagree because as you say no Marxist state has ever succeeded for comparisons. I believe if it could work it would have. You and others say it could work …easy to say… but it is not practical in everyday administration. All attempts have had to modify the basic premise of Marxism just to function…and even then poorly. Until a purely Marxist society works on a large scale for a significant time then it is a failed ideal. Butch

subfever -> RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. (4/17/2011 1:32:50 PM)
quote: Until a purely Marxist society works on a large scale for a significant time then it is a failed ideal. Just to be clear, I'm not advocating Marxism. "Marxism" is often an iconic protective shield that is automatically held up by many who fear any movement towards a system which advocates any semblance of collectivism. The fact is that up until very recently, mankind hasn't possessed the technology to eliminate the scarcity of basic human needs. Therefore, any philosophies that pre-date this technology are irrelevant. Aside from this, I'm glad we recognize our common ground.

kdsub -> RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. (4/17/2011 1:42:20 PM)
Sure we've a lot of common ground...just some ideas sound good but don't work... I am not one of these people that see socialism in every act of charity. Butch

subfever -> RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. (4/17/2011 2:02:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Sure we've a lot of common ground...just some ideas sound good but don't work... I am not one of these people that see socialism in every act of charity. Butch Some ideas also sound good, but haven't been implemented yet. Until they are, we can't claim that they don't work. Mankind needs to implement a system where the very concept of charity ultimately becomes obsolete, due to no need.

kdsub -> RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. (4/17/2011 2:13:41 PM)
Touché

kdsub -> RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. (4/17/2011 2:30:57 PM)
quote: charity ultimately becomes obsolete, due to no need. Now that scares the hell out of me... It does the soul good to do something you don't have to do for another... If it were before the need then eventually we would think of it as an entitlement and forget the charity of the heart.. When bad times come again, which they always do, we will have forgotten how to be charitable... Just look at France as an example. Butch

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