Get your education, somewhere else ? (Full Version)

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Termyn8or -> Get your education, somewhere else ? (4/16/2011 5:47:55 PM)

This is an opinion piece apparently, I happen to agree with most of it.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/why_the_united_states_is_destroying_her_education_system_20110410/

I think we've heard enough about the situation to see that this guy is not full of shit.
The only thing that I think I might disagree with is that it does no good to teach a worker ant what happened thousands of years ago in a place far away. I think peoples' education is a lifelong process and should be. Once they can survive well in society, they can learn whatever they want.

However, to claim you are delivering a well rounded education when it is really just barely basic skills plus indoctrination is just plain wrong. That article delves into just who's fault it may be. Teachers can be good or bad, but like in industry and government, it seems like the slag rises to the top.

Perhaps it is time to skim off the slag.

My friend's kids went to excellent schools, the kind you pay for. I saw the homework, it was thought provoking. They do quite well now. Both Parents' worst nighmare would have been to send the kids to public schools. It may be different elsewhere, I wouldn't know.

T^T



DarkSteven -> RE: Get your education, somewhere else ? (4/16/2011 5:57:13 PM)

The guy may have a point.  But I can't read his writing because it's so poor.

1. He uses the term "education system" to refer to the public education system, through high school.  He evidently does not consider our colleges and private schools to be a part of the education system.

2. He makes all sorts of points about trends but doesn't back them up with statistics or references. Opinions masquerading as facts.



Termyn8or -> RE: Get your education, somewhere else ? (4/16/2011 6:41:49 PM)

Like I said it is an opinion piece. If you can't read because he doesn't write so well that probably explains why you don't get into alot of arguments here :-)

Like I said about my friend, they found a good school, but not public, so it is obvious (to me) that he is talking about public schools.

Public school teachers are between a rock and a hard place it seems. The "students" come in unprepared and unwilling, and micromanagement is institutionalised. And the biggest issue before the sheeple is creation versus evolution. This is obviously a diversion. An authority driven hierarchy supported by chicanery.

Near where I work there is a private (Catholic) school. They boast 100% acceptance into college. But you can get kicked out of those schools, and guess where you go. It's a lose lose.

Abolish the system. Let it all go private. Getting the government out of the business is of prime importance I think.

T^T



Aylee -> RE: Get your education, somewhere else ? (4/16/2011 6:57:35 PM)

The problem with K-12 education? ~

The 1960's and the "deconstruction of reality" along with Cultural Marxism, 'reader-response theory,' and constructivism.

The Department of Education should be disbanded.

It is interesting to note that Horace Mann, the creator of our public school system, when elected to congress did NOT propose that the federal government be involved in public education.




Brain -> RE: Get your education, somewhere else ? (4/16/2011 7:18:24 PM)

Get your education at home like Barack Obama whose mother woke him up 5 AM to study and worked with him for three hours before he left for school. I believe she was an anthropologist. Obviously parents can be that somewhere else and they can make a huge difference.



hlen5 -> RE: Get your education, somewhere else ? (4/17/2011 7:01:04 AM)

100 years ago public education was a great equalizer within our society. I think public education must be IMPROVED, not scrapped.

As much as I admire the dedication of any parent doing additional work with their kids, it's a shame that it's necessary to supplement public education.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ETA: I added this because I liked it, it's the end of the above article.

“The greatest evil perpetrated,” Hannah Arendt wrote, “is the evil committed by nobodies, that is, by human beings who refuse to be persons.”

As Arendt pointed out, we must trust only those who have this self-awareness. This self-awareness comes only through consciousness. It comes with the ability to look at a crime being committed and say “I can’t.” We must fear, Arendt warned, those whose moral system is built around the flimsy structure of blind obedience. We must fear those who cannot think. Unconscious civilizations become totalitarian wastelands.

“The greatest evildoers are those who don’t remember because they have never given thought to the matter, and, without remembrance, nothing can hold them back,” Arendt writes. “For human beings, thinking of past matters means moving in the dimension of depth, striking roots and thus stabilizing themselves, so as not to be swept away by whatever may occur—the Zeitgeist or History or simple temptation. The greatest evil is not radical, it has no roots, and because it has no roots it has no limitations, it can go to unthinkable extremes and sweep over the whole world.”



DomKen -> RE: Get your education, somewhere else ? (4/17/2011 7:39:04 AM)

The simple fact is that our education system is collapsing mostly because of racism. When schools integrated the racist whites pulled their children out of public education in large numbers and then willingly co-operated with those who wanted to destroy public education for their own reasons. We have grossly underfunded schools and put teachers in working conditions so lousy it is something of a miracle that we can even come close to recruiting enough teachers for all the classrooms we need.



Real0ne -> RE: Get your education, somewhere else ? (4/17/2011 9:43:46 AM)

your bias wouldnt have anything to do with your being in the industry would it?


the public school system is an atrocity and always has been.



Fellow -> RE: Get your education, somewhere else ? (4/17/2011 12:19:26 PM)

I do not buy the corporate conspiracy thing. Every system in its development path can take directions that do not serve well for the purpose of the system itself. Education system should be regularly reformed. The testing system is a result of money distribution that has led to large class sizes. The US is No. 3 in spending per secondary school student in the World. Where does the money go? It is not spent wisely. Obviously everybody is overpaid and it leads to large class sizes and other problems. The situation is very similar to the health care system.  I guess people with children just need to adapt. There is no hope the government does anything that makes sense.



Termyn8or -> RE: Get your education, somewhere else ? (4/17/2011 1:51:56 PM)

"When schools integrated the racist whites pulled their children out of public education in large numbers and then willingly co-operated with those who wanted to destroy public education for their own reasons."

When it comes to the kids, people can be alot worse than racist.

Whether the threat was real or percieved, what if they hadn't pulled the White kids out ? They didn't all go to private schools, many actually picked up and moved out. White flight has alot more impact in alot of ways. It casued a glut on the rental market, if they owned and were lucky enough to sell at the right time, supply of houses went up. If they didn't sell and decided to rent the old place out, supply of rentals went up. Either way it had an adverse effect on property values and thus, tax revenues.

One would think that with less people to serve and less kids to educate there would be a surplus of money. Actually there was I think, at least for a time. But institutionalised greed took care of that most likely. There are figures out there pertaining to how much per pupil is spent in given areas. The disparity between schools in the suburbs and the inner city is not as great as one would expect.

The White flight in Cleveland was not necessarily caused by Batisti's busing ruling, there was a race riot here. They didn't like what they saw in alot of other aspects of life in the city. And there has been Black flight as well. Most want what's best for their kids, and not much else matters.

One of the biggest problems I think is the involvement of the federal government. Different areas of this country are almost as different as countries in Europe. They should set competency standards and nothing else. Of course those MFs could cost billions just to do that.

T^T



Termyn8or -> RE: Get your education, somewhere else ? (4/17/2011 1:58:21 PM)

"I think public education must be IMPROVED, not scrapped. "

It has been "improved" because it used to work. I :improved a Buick a long time ago, it lacked a big dent. Once "improved" it was ready for the scrapyard.

T^T



Termyn8or -> RE: Get your education, somewhere else ? (4/17/2011 1:59:30 PM)

"There is no hope the government does anything that makes sense."

It's getting to the point where I wish they would do nothing.

T^T



Aylee -> RE: Get your education, somewhere else ? (4/17/2011 3:06:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The simple fact is that our education system is collapsing mostly because of racism. When schools integrated the racist whites pulled their children out of public education in large numbers and then willingly co-operated with those who wanted to destroy public education for their own reasons. We have grossly underfunded schools and put teachers in working conditions so lousy it is something of a miracle that we can even come close to recruiting enough teachers for all the classrooms we need.


Oh yes. Totally agree.

I think that there were some books written about this.

The Jungle by Upton Sinclair, about Mrs. Merckle's third grade class working conditions.

Animal Farm by George Orwell, about fair and equal education for all the animals.

A Room of One’s Own by Virginia Woolf, about large class sizes.


[8|]



subfever -> RE: Get your education, somewhere else ? (4/17/2011 4:05:00 PM)

quote:

This is an opinion piece apparently, I happen to agree with most of it.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/why_the_united_states_is_destroying_her_education_system_20110410/


I find myself pretty well-aligned with the author's thinking myself.

Nice find...



tweakabelle -> RE: Get your education, somewhere else ? (4/17/2011 11:05:11 PM)

As someone working in the education sector, I remain unable to comprehend the reasoning that insists reducing investment in education is a cost-saving. Education is not a business producing a commodity to be traded for profit.

Nor can I accept the rationale in distributing education and educational resources according to class privileges or religious beliefs. To me it seems self-evident that integrating education, exposing children to the diversity of life from the earliest ages can only be good for them. To restrict that process is to deny children and students important knowledges and life skills, knowledges and skills that will enrich society in the long run.

Is there any one here who claims their brain is stimulated by uniformity? Why do people insist that this is somehow appropriate for children or students? Growing minds are fascinated by the new and different, they thrive on diversity.

Our State-funded educational sector here sounds healthier than the US one, though funding imbalances that favour richer private schools threaten that. Universities have been forced to move to charging fees instead of free for all students. This has led to a significant drop in quality and standards of both students and teachers.

Growing a mind is different to growing potatoes or making cars. Short cuts and penny pinching doesn't just damage the institution, they result in stunted minds and stunted people. Who in their right mind would invest in that?



myotherself -> RE: Get your education, somewhere else ? (4/17/2011 11:14:12 PM)

Absolutely agree with Tweakabelle - 100%!!!

I'm a teacher in the UK, and I've seen first-hand the effect of budget cuts on education. I teach a 'core subject' so my area is less affected than others, but students in my school don't even get the option to learn a foreign language, or study physics (it's all just half-assed 'general science' now), or even learn history.

Even in core subjects it's all about teaching to the test. If you don't improve exam passes, budgets are cut or held the same year on year, regardless of increase in costs.

Class sizes are getting ridiculous - over 30 kids per class for a one hour lesson is not good enough. That's 2 minutes per kid. And if one (or usually more) of the kids has a learning disability or a behaviour problem (and of course there are no teaching assistants because they cost too much), then some of the good kids can go for the full academic year with no one on one teacher support. And of course, that means that a kid who could be helped to improve is being left by the wayside.

Then we get parents and the media complaining about 'falling standards in schools', and blaming the teacher because obviously it is all their fault [8|] And people wonder why teachers are leaving education and taking jobs in other sectors where they are appreciated more and paid more.




Termyn8or -> RE: Get your education, somewhere else ? (4/18/2011 2:03:43 AM)

FR

I too agree with tweaky, and this is important. Now let me give you all a piece of my mind, not too big now :-) I had this, which came out on my eighteenth birthday. The words impressed me, give it a go, and see what they might say to you. In concert he introduced it as a song about the future, and I see no reason to separate him from the rest. The "wise" ones, the annointed, the special. Fuck special, that's what you say about.... never mind. But here's a link to a song you might be interested in hearing. The lyrics are what I mean. (they are available in print easily) That's a piece of MY mind, but at an angle, it does not describe me in the least bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2ZOhWAaGVs

Listen to the words. Think about people and what they say, what they think, think about it all, the words do it. It applies to this thread I think. Think think think, I'm getting sick of it. Too few people doing it, little help here ? And more of my opinion is coming soon, like it or not.

Back later to converse, I am ripping right now. Well I was......

T^T



rulemylife -> RE: Get your education, somewhere else ? (4/18/2011 2:06:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Near where I work there is a private (Catholic) school. They boast 100% acceptance into college. But you can get kicked out of those schools, and guess where you go. It's a lose lose.

Abolish the system. Let it all go private. Getting the government out of the business is of prime importance I think.

T^T


Where exactly are some parents going to come up with that money?

Chanel High School in Bedford charges $34,000 for four years.

Admissions

Public school students and transfer students may download this APPLICATION . ST. PETER CHANEL The Best Value In Private Education! TUITION: $8500.00 ...



Termyn8or -> RE: Get your education, somewhere else ? (4/18/2011 2:44:16 AM)

"As someone working in the education sector, I remain unable to comprehend the reasoning that insists reducing investment in education is a cost-saving. Education is not a business producing a commodity to be traded for profit."

This is EXACTLY what the author of the article linked in the OP was bitching about ! You think throwing ten times the money at it will fix it ? That has been tried MORE THAN ONCE. It is simply something that money cannot buy. It is a different thing.

You want to throw more money through those "suits" to get better results ? THEY always get better results, we do not. They get more money FROM US. Get  it ? That is the result they want. That is business and that is how education is being conducted. Expanding the current googlioply on this thing can only make it worse, as has been proven time and time again. Rip it down, shoot it, burn it. Get rid of it, it is a cancer in our society. I was at the hospital the other day, now many of those doctors do you think were Oriental ? Racist, GODDAMNNED RIGHT I AM. They come here, apply themselves and get somewhere. They fixed my eye. Want to take  crack at that ?

Why ? For one, they are taught different, like some other race which is protected by Domken and the like, who know that KNOWLEDGE IS POWER. They strive for knowledge all their lives, as have I. If I weren't such a bad boy I would've owned the world by now, hands down.

But I blew it. Not really, I am lazy too, but really I want to know why I have to teach highschool grads math. And I am not all that great at it ! This is ridiculous.

Teachers in this country have an incredible cross to bear. First of all you got an administration that has never suffered consequences and never will because if you have real value as a teacher they don't care if they lose you. The will replace you and destroy some new novice teacher's ideals once you walk out the door. You are as worthless to them as a clerk, easily replacable. (I don't mean that, that it how THEY think of you). They would love to see you quit. Then they can get someone cheaper. All the want are talking books, not older humans teaching younger humans. They want the book taught. The curricula are the gods. They are the be all and end all, and when errors are found (and they are) oh well, we're sorry, "What, did you expect us to know what we are teaching your kids ? The hell you say".

This situation is untenable, and if you think doing MORE of the same that CAUSED the problem will solve it, you need some direction. People will not fix anything under the current situation.

Alter or abolish it. And I don't mean a bigger budget. How much did it cost me to tutor basic math ? How much did it cost me to tutor basic electronics ? They offered me $35 an hour back in about 1997 to teach electronics, I turned them down because I will not work in that environment. This was actually a university believe it or not, and my credentials were not academic, they were entirely self taught and practicality (experience) based. Sorry Charlie, take that job and shove it.

Why ?

Explore that in your own minds, based on my disdain for institutionalized education. I will not lend my brain to those who constantly undermine real education and make them look better. Let the chips fall, and I am not going to be one of the chips.

I have thought this way since I was a teenager, and it is not going to change now. I WILL NOT HELP THEM. They did not help me. I had to educate my fucking self. When I wanted a quickie on how to do long division in grade school I got "We aren't on that yet". Are you fucking kidding me ? Well it just so happens a few years later over a case of beer and an actually illiterate friend of the family and the olman we looked over the "The Machinery Handbook" and learned how to do square roots longhand. How many here can do that ? (umm, this book is also better than the REAL Anarchist's Handbook)

Yes, what happens if your bateries give out ? Listen to that tune and realize that my name is NOT 905. And note, even if the educational system were perfect, I would be against it because it is an institution, forced upon us. College is different, you pay to be there.

T^T



Termyn8or -> RE: Get your education, somewhere else ? (4/18/2011 2:50:39 AM)

"Where exactly are some parents going to come up with that money? "

That's the game dude. They take and take, and take somemore until you have almost nothing left, and then they give some back and you jump for joy, they got you right where they want you.

T^T



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