RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals (Full Version)

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slvemike4u -> RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals (4/18/2011 4:57:13 PM)

Is there no way to limit this board to actual profiles....his continued presence insults every last one of us.



Lucylastic -> RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals (4/18/2011 5:11:20 PM)

Ill put my history up against either of them Mike.
ANYDAY
I gave my opinion on krugman, My opinion of Ryan is so low and utter disgust that I would be against TOS giving my opinion.
Im scraping the barrel just by not ignoring them again.
On second thoughts, thats just what I neeed, so do you!



slvemike4u -> RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals (4/18/2011 5:15:42 PM)

Sounds like a good idea....and timely too,I fly too New York Wednesday Morning for a quick two week stay....little time for sock puppets.....or sanity's.
Let the ignoring begin.....(I feel better already...lol)



Lucylastic -> RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals (4/18/2011 5:20:12 PM)

Have fun:) 



Sanity -> RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals (4/18/2011 5:20:13 PM)


It would be nice if your and Lucys petty, small minded derails really were behind us mike, I hope this is a promise you two intend to keep



Hillwilliam -> RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals (4/18/2011 5:21:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

dawg, I have not conflated anything.

Oil is where gasoline comes from.  You will note that gasoline is a synergistic multiple of crude since about what?  20% or so can be cracked into gasoline, which begs the question why a gallon of diesel costs more than a gallon of gasoline.

You impute and impugn me with things I never said.

In any case, as I thought you havent any proof that we use all canadian and north dakotan oil internally, nor have you proved that most of the offshore we lease is used internally.

You ain't changed nothin but the name.

Diesel costs more than gasoline because there is more energy that can be released from the chemical bonds in a gallon of diesel compared to gasoline.

Ethanol is similarly cheaper for the same reason. Less energy (mileage) per gallon.



ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals (4/18/2011 6:05:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

You want to talk about riots and what affects people, research Watts.

And people just wont get that pissed these days.


Lady tazzy, I disagree with you on this point.

You might be surprised what "people" end up doing, it is still very early yet, and things are going to get much, much worse.

When things get worse, we can discuss what "people" will do, when many, many people's backs are up against the wall.


It's amazing to me how many people still don't comprehend that things are never going to be the same as they were as recently as a few years ago. How can people not get that? The reason people aren't getting that angry yet is that they're still clinging to the illusion that the American Dream is within their reach, and the reach of their children. What you're seeing in Wisconsin and a few other places is the first rumblings of an awakening, a growing awareness on the part of the American people that the American Dream  is effectively over - that the ladder is being pulled up, and they and their families are being left behind.

Wait. Give it a year or two. 20 years from now, those of us who are still alive will be looking back on these past couple of years as the last good years of their lifetimes.



samboct -> RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals (4/19/2011 10:36:28 AM)

I love Lucy's posts- her avatars always have the cutest tushies...

Neither plan is workable- but Krugman's comments on Ryan's plan I think are accurate.

From my perspective we've got two choices-

1) Not make any hard choices and finger point as Ryan and Obama are doing. This will wind up with perhaps not nuclear armageddon, but a likely default on the US debt, inflation, and probably reissuing a currency. This has been the path since Ronnie Rayguns, in a fit of pique that he couldn't get rid of social security- did an abrupt about face and decided to raise the amount of taxes going to these programs from 12% to 15% in an effort to "bankrupt the beast". This has now been 30 years in coming, but was foreseeable from the time these new taxes passed. This has been a disaster since small businesses are being wiped out by these taxes- its probably one of the main reasons why new business successes have been declining. The second problem is health care costs which neither Obama nor Ryan addresses. These are the elephants in the living room..

2) We actually do make some substantive changes in the budget, taxes, and health care because we're forced to and enough politicians are scared off by option 1. This however, would require intelligence on the part of a bunch of the members of Congress and while I have certainly met some smart people in Congress, it seems that the dumb ones get more traction and shout them down.

Military costs are a current problem- but the military has seen its budget rise and fall over the years -but health care costs have only continued to rise.

Sam



joether -> RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals (4/19/2011 1:10:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
Neither plan is workable- but Krugman's comments on Ryan's plan I think are accurate.

From my perspective we've got two choices-

1) Not make any hard choices and finger point as Ryan and Obama are doing. This will wind up with perhaps not nuclear armageddon, but a likely default on the US debt, inflation, and probably reissuing a currency. This has been the path since Ronnie Rayguns, in a fit of pique that he couldn't get rid of social security- did an abrupt about face and decided to raise the amount of taxes going to these programs from 12% to 15% in an effort to "bankrupt the beast". This has now been 30 years in coming, but was foreseeable from the time these new taxes passed. This has been a disaster since small businesses are being wiped out by these taxes- its probably one of the main reasons why new business successes have been declining. The second problem is health care costs which neither Obama nor Ryan addresses. These are the elephants in the living room..

2) We actually do make some substantive changes in the budget, taxes, and health care because we're forced to and enough politicians are scared off by option 1. This however, would require intelligence on the part of a bunch of the members of Congress and while I have certainly met some smart people in Congress, it seems that the dumb ones get more traction and shout them down.

Military costs are a current problem- but the military has seen its budget rise and fall over the years -but health care costs have only continued to rise.


If neither plan is workable, why dont you give us your plan, with complete information on every single line item and additional information on every concept. Its easy to dismiss a plan without reading it. Its easy to simply say "it sucks" because you dont like the person presenting the plan (or their political party). These are both tactics the GOP has used in the last three years.

Both plans do use your option 2 above. I've read both plans, and once again, the President has the right idea on the direction and speed. I could explain it, but most folks here have not read either document in its entirity. Would you take someone seriously if they give a negative view of 'War and Peace' after you find they never bothered to read the book? Why should this be any different?




samboct -> RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals (4/19/2011 2:19:47 PM)

Well, if you're looking for comments- it might help to post some links to make sure we're actually discussing the same economic plan since there have been quite a few as of late.

And in response to your question- how about a different analogy? If someone claims to have designed a perpetual motion machine- I don't need to look at the detailed specifications to know it won't work. Is either plan calling for a major revamp of medicine in this country?

Here's what lowering health care costs is going to take- And AFAIK- Obama's plan merely calls for reducing the growth in health care costs, but to be economically competitive, the US needs health care costs that are comparable to other countries.

1) Remove malpractice. Doctors are either practicing good medicine or they lose their license. Good medicine is evaluated by a board of people with no connection to the doc which can include other MDs but also scientists and engineers, i.e. potential professors of MDs. Bad medicine is operating drunk or incapacitated.
2) Bad outcomes are compensated by a pool- same as vaccines. No more lottery ticket lawsuits.
3) FDA has to mandate use of diagnostics before prescribing any drug costing over $10,000/course. We can't just guess and throw expensive treatments to terminal people on the offbeat chance they might recover. We also need better cancer diagnostics which will require a federal effort- pharma won't do it. But we can't afford to spend $100,000/head in the last six months of life- that's just extended dying. A big chunk of this is a legal problem- docs get sued if they "let" their patients die with dignity.
4) We need a single payer- i.e. National Health Care option. Insurance companies have been in the game of denying care and most of the difference in the costs of healthcare between the US and other countries can be laid at the door of insurance companies. Since I never saw a claims adjuster actually cure an illness- why are we shelling out all this money? Also- an ever increasing chunk of doctors gross income is going to a burgeoning office staff to deal with insurance company BS. Note that Microsoft estimated that 40% of health care costs don't involve health care.

It's possible that if we lower health care costs enough, there may be sufficient revenue to maintain programs like Medicaid. It's going to take some sophisticated modeling to figure that one out. But if we're going to avoid economic disaster- health care costs must come down.


Sam



tazzygirl -> RE: Krugman on the Obama/Ryan proposals (4/19/2011 2:22:30 PM)

quote:

It's possible that if we lower health care costs enough, there may be sufficient revenue to maintain programs like Medicaid.


Having it based on 50 different formulas doesnt help.



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