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In May 1992, Chief Deputy Daniel Weyenberg of the McLennan County Sheriff's Department called the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) notifying that his office had been contacted by a local UPS representative. A UPS driver described a package that had broken open on delivery to the Branch Davidian residence, revealing firearms, inert grenade casings, and black powder. On June 9, 1992, a formal investigation was opened and a week later it was classified as sensitive, [sic]"thereby calling for a high degree of oversight" from both Houston and Headquarters. Waco siege

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The ATF began surveillance from a house across the road from the compound several months before the siege. Their cover was noticeably poor (the "college students" were in their 30s, had new cars, were not registered at the local schools, and did not keep a schedule which would have fit any legitimate employment or classes).[23] The investigation included sending in an undercover agent, Robert Rodriguez, whose identity Koresh learned, though he chose not to reveal that fact until the day of the raid. Waco siege

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ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Eighteen years after Waco and almost 19 years after Ruby Ridge, the right wing continues to blame the Democrats for both incidents.

A few facts that they conveniently seem to forget:


First, lets look at Ruby Ridge.
Ruby Ridge happened under the Bush administration and was prosecuted by the Clinton Justice Department with evidence gathered prior to the standoff in 1992 when Bush was president.

Second, based on the evidence gathered by the Bush Justice Department, a federal jury acquitted Randy Weaver on all charges except two, one was set aside by the federal judge and the other was the original failure to appear in court.

Under the Clinton Justice Department, Randy Weaver and his daughters were rewarded a settlement for the wrongful death of Vicki and Samuel weaver.

Now lets look at Waco.

quote:

In May 1992, Chief Deputy Daniel Weyenberg of the McLennan County Sheriff's Department called the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) notifying that his office had been contacted by a local UPS representative. A UPS driver described a package that had broken open on delivery to the Branch Davidian residence, revealing firearms, inert grenade casings, and black powder. On June 9, 1992, a formal investigation was opened and a week later it was classified as sensitive, [sic]"thereby calling for a high degree of oversight" from both Houston and Headquarters. Waco siege

As you can see, the investigation began under the Bush Department of Justice.

quote:

The ATF began surveillance from a house across the road from the compound several months before the siege. Their cover was noticeably poor (the "college students" were in their 30s, had new cars, were not registered at the local schools, and did not keep a schedule which would have fit any legitimate employment or classes).[23] The investigation included sending in an undercover agent, Robert Rodriguez, whose identity Koresh learned, though he chose not to reveal that fact until the day of the raid. Waco siege

Funny thing about Waco, on July 30, 1992, ATF agents David Aguilera and Skinner visited the Davidians' gun dealer Henry McMahon, who tried to get them to talk with Koresh on the phone. Koresh offered to let ATF inspect the Davidians' weapons and paperwork and asked to speak with Aguilera, but Aguilera declined. Again the Bush Department of Justice was in charge.

There in lies a question, instead of going out and inspecting the weapons as David Koresh voluntarily suggested, why did they start surveillance of the compound?

Now when the Clinton Justice Department took over the case in 1993, acting on evidence already gathered, and evidently not reviewing the case file very well, a search warrant was issued.

The rest is history.

Reading all the information I can find and quoting the summaries of both incidents, I can't help but wonder if both cases were the result of flawed investigations.

In the Randy Weaver case, the word of an informant was taken as gospel with no evidence to back up the statement. Talking to a friend of mine who is a local police officer, they don't take the word of an informant as gospel when it comes to purchases of items, they usually set up a sting to prove the allegations.

Add to that the fact that Samuel Weaver was shot in the back, while retreating makes me wonder if the marshals should have stopped firing since the threat was no longer there.


In the Waco case, why didn't ATF agents actually go out to the compound and inspect the weapons? They had the records of purchases, and therefore knew how many and of what type the Branch Dravidian group had. All weapon purchases were made through dealers, including the receiver assemblies that the UPS driver delivered.

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I thought the beef with Ruby Ridge was not with the Administration but the way the FBI and Federal Marshalls handled it. Many conservatives thought the FBI and other Federal agencies were stamping on the rights of citizens.

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

I thought the beef with Ruby Ridge was not with the Administration but the way the FBI and Federal Marshalls handled it. Many conservatives thought the FBI and other Federal agencies were stamping on the rights of citizens.

Many think Weaver was set up by the ATF. When the agents shot the dog the kid shot at the agents it went downhill from there…what a mess.

I think in Waco the man was wanting a fight…nothing would have stopped the fanatic asshole. But you have to admit they handled it very bad almost to the point of incompetence.

Butch

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ORIGINAL: Owner59

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

I thought the beef with Ruby Ridge was not with the Administration but the way the FBI and Federal Marshalls handled it. Many conservatives thought the FBI and other Federal agencies were stamping on the rights of citizens.

Many think Weaver was set up by the ATF. When the agents shot the dog the kid shot at the agents it went downhill from there…what a mess.

I think in Waco the man was wanting a fight…nothing would have stopped the fanatic asshole. But you have to admit they handled it very bad almost to the point of incompetence.

Butch

Weaver knew he was being watched by law enforcement and knew what he was doing when he sent his young son(just a boy really) out with a rifle.He`s a coward.

I don`t have an once of sympathy for him.He created his own tragedy. The circus afterward with the republicans palling around with that criminal,making him a hero, was a quite shameful.

If you`re going to sell sawed-off shotguns with the serial numbers removed to order,you`re going to get some police attention.

Waco was fubar.They knew the agents were coming and laid in wait.I heard the agents knew they were spotted but went in anyway.

Just the fact that people were saying koresh could have been arrested alone,on one of his many weekly trips into town is what burned me up.WTF was in charge!!!.That whole thing was botched by Bush Sr. ,I think it was.(so yes,the rightie-press does like to forget that)

But buy then agents had been killed,no one was going home....yet,..... and the child rapist korish was bunkered down.

I don`t think Jesus himself would have been able to stop those loonatics from setting themselves on fire.

When I mention to cons that they are defending the child rapist koresh when they bash Clinton over Waco,the smiles kinda melt away.

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ORIGINAL: FullCircle

They'd like you to forget a few more things:

The banking crisis was caused by the banks not the people

There were no WMD's

The book of Genesis

Stem cell research

A woman has rights over her own body.

Timothy McVeigh