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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 4/20/2011 7:12:07 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Damn atheists are so freakin touchy.

I'm not touchy! Well...depends on what kind of "touchy" we're talking about!

And surely me being a pedant is no surprise.



LOL

No telling what Kind of touchy i meant, huh?

And, no, its no surprise... I would expect no less!

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Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 4/20/2011 7:12:56 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

But as far as my own concept of God goes -panentheism- I have absolutely no problem with the idea that there is a driving force behind evolution that we haven't recognized yet... call it God or whatever else you like, but I don't think the universe is a random sequence of nothingness.


Yes, but that reduces to the argument of "god of the gaps." Wherever some knowledge is missing in science just plug in a god as the solution. Lazy reasoning doncha think?

(in reply to Ishtarr)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 4/20/2011 7:13:31 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

Damn atheists are so freakin touchy.
and you are so inconsistent as to be incomprehensible. we can never figure out what you mean because you change the parameters by which you are discussing things with every post. myself, i suspect that most of the time even you don't know what you mean.

you are bitching about atheists, yet a few posts ago you proclaimed yourself an atheist (though you may be right as you are overly touchy about nearly everything).

hannah lynn



I dont know what Im talking about, yet you consider me an atheist.

lol

I keep laughing and laughing over your posts little girl. Do keep it up, you at least have entertainment value.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 4/20/2011 7:28:11 PM   
Ishtarr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

But as far as my own concept of God goes -panentheism- I have absolutely no problem with the idea that there is a driving force behind evolution that we haven't recognized yet... call it God or whatever else you like, but I don't think the universe is a random sequence of nothingness.


Yes, but that reduces to the argument of "god of the gaps." Wherever some knowledge is missing in science just plug in a god as the solution. Lazy reasoning doncha think?


Not at all.
Not considering the fact that the same thing applies to everything else, even things that are explained by science, from a pantheistic view.
If God or spirituality is simply defined as being more than that sum of the entire universe in an of itself, there is no reason why he can't both be the driving force behind evolution as well as not be necessary to explain evolution from a scientific point of view -or any other perspective.

That's to say, from a panentheistic view, it is absolutely irrelevant to ask whether or not something is caused by God, because it's already accepted that the entire universe is encompassed by God. For a panentheist, to speak of the universe is to speak of God/spirituality. Instead, it is much more relevant and important to ask how we as human can explain and understand things ourselves by means of things such as science.

A "god of gaps" is only created when one believes that the existence of God is the only answer required to a given problem, which leads me back directly to one of the biggest issues I have to those of a Christian-Judeic-Islamic faith...

Ishtar

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 4/20/2011 7:30:52 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 4/20/2011 7:35:56 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

To say that belief in a God which created the physical universe (including evolution) and the theory of evolution are compatible is not to say that one necessarily depends on, or has anything to do with, the other. Epistemologically, the two are independent: As is true for all science, evolution doesn't require God (or any supernatural agency) nor does belief in God require evolution. But neither do they necessarily conflict. As I said in my initial response, one of the objections some religionists have had to evolution is that it (as is true of all science) has no teleology (ultimate purpose). Subscribing to Darwinian evolution entails acceptance of random variability and natural selection as mechanisms of evolutionary change. Whether God as creator informs evolutionary change via those mechanisms is simply not a scientific question.


I notice your use of the qualifiers "one of the objections" and "some religionists." But can we be a bit more honest here? The major objection to Natural Selection is that it blows a hole into the notion of Special Creation dearly held by biblical literalists. In that respect Natural Selection is highly incompatible with Faith in a Creator God. So, can we please stop dancing around the epistemology bush and confront the issue more forthrightly?

(in reply to eihwaz)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 4/20/2011 7:45:22 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

The major objection to Natural Selection is that it blows a hole into the notion of Special Creation dearly held by biblical literalists. In that respect Natural Selection is highly incompatible with Faith in a Creator God. So, can we please stop dancing around the epistemology bush and confront the issue more forthrightly?

The idea of a Creator is not exclusive to Biblical literalists, and natural selection's incompatibility with Biblical literalism does not equate to being incompatible with belief in a Creator.

So would you please stop dancing over inconvenient details and confront the issue honestly?

K.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 4/20/2011 7:51:09 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

Damn atheists are so freakin touchy.
and you are so inconsistent as to be incomprehensible. we can never figure out what you mean because you change the parameters by which you are discussing things with every post. myself, i suspect that most of the time even you don't know what you mean.

you are bitching about atheists, yet a few posts ago you proclaimed yourself an atheist (though you may be right as you are overly touchy about nearly everything).

hannah lynn



I dont know what Im talking about, yet you consider me an atheist.

lol

I keep laughing and laughing over your posts little girl. Do keep it up, you at least have entertainment value.


HannahLyn might have a point tazzy. In my observation, your history of posts on religion-related issues is confusing and contradictory.

Trying to reconcile the following statements of yours leads me to wonder whether you spend most of your time laughing at yourself.

"lol... it does give me a chuckle to see so many who dont believe in something get so worked up. " post #84 this

"Though I do not believe in "God" I can see the point in that argument." post # 111

Laughing at yourself can be quite healthy. It's good not to take yourself too seriously. However not taking yourself seriously relieves others of the burden of taking you seriously too, doesn't it?

Edited to alter the last paragraph.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/20/2011 7:57:07 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 4/20/2011 7:51:10 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

That's to say, from a panentheistic view, it is absolutely irrelevant to ask whether or not something is caused by God, because it's already accepted that the entire universe is encompassed by God. For a panentheist, to speak of the universe is to speak of God/spirituality. Instead, it is much more relevant and important to ask how we as human can explain and understand things ourselves by means of things such as science.


Seems obvious that you have established a tautology where no contradiction is permitted and the presumption of the existence of a spirit wrapped around a material universe is a given which cannot be questioned. And your position is based on no particular evidence. I see no basis for a discussion here. *shruggsss*

(in reply to Ishtarr)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 4/20/2011 7:55:43 PM   
HannahLynHeather


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quote:

I dont know what Im talking about, yet you consider me an atheist.
as usual you misunderstand what was typed, maybe a course in remedial reading at the local community college would be helpful. i clearly stated that you proclaimed yourself an atheist, which you clearly did:
Please, remember, I dont believe in God. (
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3641179)

i didn't say a thing about what i consider you to be, to do that with any honesty would be to run afoul of the forum rules.

quote:

I keep laughing and laughing over your posts little girl. Do keep it up, you at least have entertainment value.
glad to be of service, old lady. i wish i could say the same about you and your posts, but alas i cannot.

hannah lynn

< Message edited by HannahLynHeather -- 4/20/2011 7:58:10 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 4/20/2011 7:57:59 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Ah, I get it. Since I dont believe in "God" I must be an atheist.

Good to know that is how the definition works.

Isnt that right? You are an atheist, tweak, arent you?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 4/20/2011 7:59:42 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

i clearly stated that you proclaimed yourself an atheist, which you clearly did:


"Though I do not believe in "God" I can see the point in that argument." post # 111

Keep trying.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to HannahLynHeather)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 4/20/2011 8:01:35 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

The idea of a Creator is not exclusive to Biblical literalists, and natural selection's incompatibility with Biblical literalism does not equate to being incompatible with belief in a Creator.

So would you please stop dancing over inconvenient details and confront the issue honestly?


Hello K. My point was directed to the incompatability between Natural Selection and Special Creation which if definition is needed refers specifically to the creation of humankind as related in the Bible: God created man in His own likeness. You are changing the issue I raised by bringing in some other (un-named) Creator beliefs.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 4/20/2011 8:02:20 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

Ah, I get it. Since I dont believe in "God" I must be an atheist.

Good to know that is how the definition works.
Ummm...yeah tazzy, that's pretty much how it works. Perhaps you'd care to explain how you can say that you do not believe in God and yet are not an atheist?

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Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 4/20/2011 8:03:49 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I do not believe in God. I do believe in a higher power, as I have repeatedly stated on more than one religious thread.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 4/20/2011 8:07:09 PM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

That's to say, from a panentheistic view, it is absolutely irrelevant to ask whether or not something is caused by God, because it's already accepted that the entire universe is encompassed by God. For a panentheist, to speak of the universe is to speak of God/spirituality. Instead, it is much more relevant and important to ask how we as human can explain and understand things ourselves by means of things such as science.


Seems obvious that you have established a tautology where no contradiction is permitted and the presumption of the existence of a spirit wrapped around a material universe is a given which cannot be questioned. And your position is based on no particular evidence. I see no basis for a discussion here. *shruggsss*


I'm far from a pantheist. But pantheism seems to me to be the only theistic belief that makes even the remotest sense. And then only on a general level.

Your criticisms are valid from a reductionist perspective. Is a reductionist perspective appropriate when considering a proposal that says all things are one? It could be seen as a trifle limited, if you don't mind my saying so.

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Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 4/20/2011 8:08:30 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

I do not believe in God. I do believe in a higher power
There's a difference? Please elucidate us all.

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Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 4/20/2011 8:08:56 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


Isnt that right? You are an atheist, tweak, arent you?


No.

Edited to add: I have outlined my position to you at least three times. As none of those efforts seem to have been absorbed, I see little point in repeating the process for you.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/20/2011 8:19:02 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 4/20/2011 8:13:18 PM   
HannahLynHeather


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quote:

"Though I do not believe in "God" I can see the point in that argument." post # 111

Keep trying.
i was referring to your statement in post #52, where you did not put any convenient quotes around the word god. if what you meant is that you did not believe in the islamo-judeo-christain god, then perhaps you should have said that.

hannah lynn

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Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 4/20/2011 8:16:52 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

Ah, I get it. Since I dont believe in "God" I must be an atheist.

Good to know that is how the definition works.


Perhaps you'd care to explain how you can say that you do not believe in God and yet are not an atheist?

As is the case with most things, there are more than two options Arpig.

Another option is to profess to be agnostic.

I don't believe that the evidence exists to justify either a belief in a deity or a belief that there is no deity. Nor do I believe that this question is open to resolution on a rational basis. There may exist other bases for resolution - I don't know - but a rational conclusion seems beyond human potential to me.

FWIW that's my position.

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Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 4/20/2011 8:17:08 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

I do not believe in God. I do believe in a higher power
There's a difference? Please elucidate us all.


Of course. I dont believe in "God". My belief is that all things, living and non, have a spirit. Many have termed this the "Great Mystery". I prefer the easier explanation of a higher power. Something that is bigger than me, than us all. This is the "religion" (for lack of a better word) of my father's father, one my father does not embrace, but one I have chosen.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 160
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