BDSM & Japanese Culture (Full Version)

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mathiasdomm -> BDSM & Japanese Culture (5/9/2006 2:27:29 PM)

I've been watching a lot of Japanese films lately, mostly mainstream stuff, and they seem to have a serious obsession with BDSM and all sorts of kink.  In three movies I saw a public rape fantasy, bondage, humiliation, spankings, all sorts of public sex scenes.  And these were all major plot elements.  Is there some BDSM wave going through Japanese culture?  I'm just curious about this. 


-m



lilbitnella -> RE: BDSM & Japanese Culture (5/9/2006 2:32:40 PM)

Good question. From my knowledge of the history of BDSM, it orginated in Asia, then on to Europe. North Americans borrowed mostly from the Europeans, (ie, "the French Maid, etc)..I believe the Asian Culture in general are the basis? Maybe they are just "re-inventing" an older custom perhaps?
Smiles.
Nella



meatcleaver -> RE: BDSM & Japanese Culture (5/9/2006 2:47:40 PM)

The mother of my younger daughter is Japanese and we have something of a long distance relationship, seeing each other fairly regular but that is by and by. There is definitely a sub-culture that is vibrant and like anything Japanese its turned into an artform. Sexual obsession and S&M certainly feature strongly in the culture, high-brow culture as well as popular culture. I think its down to how hard and rigid there society is, there has to be some way for all the stress to be released. Even though I have a Japanese daughter, it is a difficult society to get to see on the inside so I don't know much more than anyone else. I've been to Shibari classes there and it really reminded me of the rigors of traditional life study classes I had at art school years and years ago. Intensely serious and high expectancies. I do have quite a few Japanese films, books and comics myself on such subject matter. In the Bushido period enemy captives were tied up in ropes, the first country to do so and bondage was used in various Japanese religions for comparable reasons to christian flagulation.



Lordandmaster -> RE: BDSM & Japanese Culture (5/9/2006 2:52:02 PM)

Yes, it's been "going through" for about a thousand years now.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mathiasdomm

Is there some BDSM wave going through Japanese culture?



KittenWithaTwist -> RE: BDSM & Japanese Culture (5/9/2006 2:59:07 PM)

If you watch the "right" films, you can see any sort of result. After all, if we watch, say, a bunch of George Romero and Bruce Campbell movies, we can assume that Americans are really focused on campy horror movies. If we watch a bunch of Steven Segal and Arnie Schwartzenegger (sp?) movies, we could assume that Americans are really focused on violence and blood and death and pain.

But I wouldn't say that generalized American culture focuses primarily on either violence or campy horror any more so than other things.

Who made the films you were watching? Were they, perhaps, directed by Takashi Miike? Miike produces movies that are vile and disgusting and very S&M-like-some of their titles include "Audition" and "Ichi the Killer" (try looking them up on imdb.com). However, films by, say, Hideo Nakata ("Ringu") are more subtle and reveal very little in terms of horror or S&M. Some fans compare him to a Hitchcock (revealing elements in a more realistic but perhaps less shocking way) as opposed to a Rob Zombie film, which is meant to be extremely shocking and out there.

I'm not doubting that the Japanese cinema has an interest in S&M. They also seem to enjoy tall, blond anime girls being raped by aliens with long penile tentacles. But I don't know that Japanese culture is particularly focused on this, nor that all Japanese people are intrigued by this. To my knowledge, it is still frowned upon to see same-sex persons holding hands in public in Japan.
Taking one's opinions purely from cinema for entertainment value is a poor judge as to what actual Japanese culture is made up of.



KittenWithaTwist -> RE: BDSM & Japanese Culture (5/9/2006 3:09:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lilbitnella

Good question. From my knowledge of the history of BDSM, it orginated in Asia, then on to Europe. North Americans borrowed mostly from the Europeans, (ie, "the French Maid, etc)..I believe the Asian Culture in general are the basis? Maybe they are just "re-inventing" an older custom perhaps?
Smiles.
Nella



First of all, Japan closed itself off from the rest of the world until, as I recall, the 1800s. However, many of the bdsm activities we enjoy, for fun, were torture techniques used by religious fantatics in Europe during the Inquistion (as well as other times, though I'd say that is one of the more famous eras).
While I don't know that there is any documented history of the "invention" of BDSM, I doubt that it "came from" any particular place, other than the human mind. The devices of S&M (pieces of carved wood, leather whips, hand cuffs) are also the sorts of instruments used to control animals, and many (like the bullwhip) were invented for that purpose and later used to control humans (like slaves).



meatcleaver -> RE: BDSM & Japanese Culture (5/9/2006 3:19:36 PM)

Various bondage techniques have been in Japanese culture for hundreds of years, as a form of punishment, religious rites and for pleasure. Sex doesn't hold the burden of sin as it does in the christian and muslim world, it is seen as a form of biological necessity to procreate and there is nothing unhealthy about it. Bondage later gained an aesthetic perspective. Apparently it was contact with the Grermans that introduced western idea of S&M, al a de Sade.



JohnWarren -> RE: BDSM & Japanese Culture (5/9/2006 3:22:39 PM)

It depends on what you mean by "BDSM."  Since, to me, BDSM (the term dates, by the way, from the 1980's) has an inherent base of consent, what I'd call BDSM is of relatively recent origin.



meatcleaver -> RE: BDSM & Japanese Culture (5/9/2006 3:26:24 PM)

I think that is a good point. I've been to a couple of BDSM events in Japan and they have a decidedly western feel.



KittenWithaTwist -> RE: BDSM & Japanese Culture (5/9/2006 3:47:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Various bondage techniques have been in Japanese culture for hundreds of years, as a form of punishment, religious rites and for pleasure. Sex doesn't hold the burden of sin as it does in the christian and muslim world, it is seen as a form of biological necessity to procreate and there is nothing unhealthy about it. Bondage later gained an aesthetic perspective. Apparently it was contact with the Grermans that introduced western idea of S&M, al a de Sade.


According to Wikipedia, the "father" of Shibari rope bondage was Ito Seiu, who borrowed ties from the Hojojutsu military restraint technique in 1908. The brief also lists the Edo Period (1603-1867) as the first time that bondage was noticed as a sexual activity in Japan.

As far as how sex is treated in Japan, according to this article (http://www.biz2web.com/grant/c11.htm), while pornography is definitely openly available in Japan, public displays of affection (from the holding hands of hetero couples, to kissing, to hugging) are generally not seen at all. According to the researcher, women do not generally engage in sex with their husbands for anything other than procreation, and men are generally expected to have extramarital affairs. Men have seperate rooms or seperate homes from their wives. I'd also like to point out the rather compulsive desire to be modest.

Also, I'm curious as to where you found the information regarding the Japanese, the Germans, and the Marquis de Sade.  



CrappyDom -> RE: BDSM & Japanese Culture (5/9/2006 3:54:39 PM)

I think sex originated with early man...but I could be mistaken.



meatcleaver -> RE: BDSM & Japanese Culture (5/9/2006 4:16:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist

Also, I'm curious as to where you found the information regarding the Japanese, the Germans, and the Marquis de Sade.  


My daughter's mother. She's Japanese but I don't know if that makes her right but it makes sense to me because S&M was de rigor for bohemian Germans in the Weimar Republic and before I believe.

EDITED Apparently there is something of a sexual revolution going on amongst young Japanese, rather like here in the sixties. Just what I've read and observed and conversation with Japanese friends. Again, I don't claim to be an expert.



mathiasdomm -> RE: BDSM & Japanese Culture (5/9/2006 4:48:08 PM)

I didn't mean to generalize about "Japanese culture."  There's some 127 million or so of them.  The odds that they all have rape fantasies, or even dinner conversations about them aren't in my favor.  I suppose what I'm interested in is the disparity between the occurance of these images in popular film in the US and Japan.

To clarify, I"m talking about somewhere between 80 and 120 movies that I've seen over the last year or two.  After I posted this, I went looking on the web for some sort of answer and found another indicator of the thing I'm talking about.  I googled "rape videos' and about 75% of the content I found was Asian (yeah, another gross generalization but I can't speak the languages or judge nationalities by appearance, so that's what I'm left with). Also, there are news articles in the good international papers about rape being on the rise in Japan.  Apparently in 2003 the Prime Minister made a statement  to the affect that rape could be one way to deal with their population decline and "reward those women who flaunt their independence at the expense of their country." (Le Monde, July 2003 and my French isn't exactly conversational so that could probably be retranslated about half a dozen ways). 

JohnWarren, It never occured to me that there could be an absence of consent, which is ironic because I'm a human rights activist.  I'd just never thought about it i this context.  

While I'm enjoying the historical aspect of this discussion (I've never done any reading on this part.  Lots of new, even if contradicting information here), I'm really wondering if this is an outgrowth of an economic or political transformation

.  I'm inclined to link this to the rapid restructuring of that society.  As was pointed out earlier, before 1935, that was a very closed and hierarchial place.  If my history is correct, they were a pretty small and inconsequential place save a large military force.  Since 1950, the doors have been thrown open to the point that they're the largest contributor to the UN and are one of the five largest economies in the world.   Maybe this interest in power play is some part of that. 

Just more thought in general.  I like the way this is bouncing around.

-m



dogobedience -> RE: BDSM & Japanese Culture (5/9/2006 6:43:37 PM)

As some of you know my mom is Japanese, born and raised there. The culture is no different that others.
Go to San Francisco, and believe that all of the USA is gay. Go to Seattle, and believe that all of the states is constantly wet. Go to Atlanta and believe that all of the south is black..........you can find BDSM everywhere 



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