RE: Hate Crime v. TG

RE: Hate Crime v. TG (Full Version)

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DomImus -> RE: Hate Crime v. TG (4/23/2011 9:10:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh I thought liability might be an issue as staff were just standing around. I have no idea about law in the US but if that sort of thing happened in a bar or a club I assume intervention would occur. I wonder should there be a certain duty of care towards customers in this respect when on a company premises? It would have to be limited of course or people would abuse it by setting up false assaults to sue but if an assault is easily preventable as it was where it was just two fairly young girls that could be easily ejected or at least blocked from the assault victim without much danger to the staff but they allow the assault to continue then I feel the company should have some responsibility - morally at least. There is a vast difference between a bar/club and a fast food outlet. I've never seen a bouncer at McDonald's. Bars and clubs are equipped and prepared to deal with these situations. As far as the employees getting involved or even bystanders for that matter... you never know what you are getting yourself into. I'm not using that as an excuse for people not to get involved but you have to be prepared for anything. Like the two assailants turning on you. Even though I suspect that I could have kicked both of those women's asses and sent each of them to the ER - if I had been there I would only have intervened after having retrieved my firearm from my car (I have it with me 24/7). I carry it in a holster. I would have displayed it clearly but would not have removed it from the holster unless the assailants unwisely turned on me or threatened me. Then you don't know if they also have one in their car or purse but at least at that point it's a fair fight.

WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Hate Crime v. TG (4/23/2011 9:19:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomImus There is a vast difference between a bar/club and a fast food outlet. I've never seen a bouncer at McDonald's. Bars and clubs are equipped and prepared to deal with these situations. As far as the employees getting involved or even bystanders for that matter... you never know what you are getting yourself into. I'm not using that as an excuse for people not to get involved but you have to be prepared for anything. Like the two assailants turning on you. Even though I suspect that I could have kicked both of those women's asses and sent each of them to the ER - if I had been there I would only have intervened after having retrieved my firearm from my car (I have it with me 24/7). I carry it in a holster. I would have displayed it clearly but would not have removed it from the holster unless the assailants unwisely turned on me or threatened me. Then you don't know if they also have one in their car or purse but at least at that point it's a fair fight. You are quite right that there is a big difference as bouncers are rarely at fast food restaurants. It was really just the point that if something seems easy to contain that some effort should be made even just to block access to the victim as seen here but as you say these situations can be unpredictable and can escalate.

GreedyTop -> RE: Hate Crime v. TG (4/23/2011 10:01:31 AM)
quote: bouncers are rarely at fast food restaurants Wow. I have NEVER seen bouncers at a McDonalds. where the hell do you live? I'll never visit a restaurant there, lemme tell ya!

LadyPact -> RE: Hate Crime v. TG (4/23/2011 10:08:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh I thought liability might be an issue as staff were just standing around. I have no idea about law in the US but if that sort of thing happened in a bar or a club I assume intervention would occur. I wonder should there be a certain duty of care towards customers in this respect when on a company premises? It would have to be limited of course or people would abuse it by setting up false assaults to sue but if an assault is easily preventable as it was where it was just two fairly young girls that could be easily ejected or at least blocked from the assault victim without much danger to the staff but they allow the assault to continue then I feel the company should have some responsibility - morally at least. The duty of care to a patron is only that of what is considered a reasonable standard. If somebody mops a floor and doesn't alert the patron that the floor is wet where the patron slips and incurs an injury, that is the establishment's liability. That's why you see the sign to caution folks about an unusual condition. (The floor wet/mopping in progress sign.) What happened here between patrons of the establishment isn't the responsibility of the business because the restaurant had no influence to prompt the incident to occur. Also, you can't instruct your employees to intervene unless you are specifically training them to do so and cover it under their responsibilities as an employee.

WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Hate Crime v. TG (4/23/2011 10:15:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh I thought liability might be an issue as staff were just standing around. I have no idea about law in the US but if that sort of thing happened in a bar or a club I assume intervention would occur. I wonder should there be a certain duty of care towards customers in this respect when on a company premises? It would have to be limited of course or people would abuse it by setting up false assaults to sue but if an assault is easily preventable as it was where it was just two fairly young girls that could be easily ejected or at least blocked from the assault victim without much danger to the staff but they allow the assault to continue then I feel the company should have some responsibility - morally at least. The duty of care to a patron is only that of what is considered a reasonable standard. If somebody mops a floor and doesn't alert the patron that the floor is wet where the patron slips and incurs an injury, that is the establishment's liability. That's why you see the sign to caution folks about an unusual condition. (The floor wet/mopping in progress sign.) What happened here between patrons of the establishment isn't the responsibility of the business because the restaurant had no influence to prompt the incident to occur. Also, you can't instruct your employees to intervene unless you are specifically training them to do so and cover it under their responsibilities as an employee. Yeah I understand that point about mopping etc. If there were a few live wires sparking and someone got a nasty shock there would be liability. I was really referring to the issue of offering some basic assistance to a person that is being assaulted and it is possible to impede them without endangering onself by getting involved. After all two people did intervene in this instance that I was responding to (they seemed to be some sort of security) but never took steps to prevent it. quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop quote: bouncers are rarely at fast food restaurants Wow. I have NEVER seen bouncers at a McDonalds. I'll never visit a restaurant there, lemme tell ya! If you wouldn't visit a restaurant where I live then you would be out of luck as the inner city shops/mini-markets often have bouncers at night as well, especially as the blood flows in the streets at the weekend! lol Reminds me of the line "You're in the asshole of the world, Captain" [:D]

GreedyTop -> RE: Hate Crime v. TG (4/23/2011 10:18:09 AM)
quote: If you wouldn't visit a restaurant where I live then you would be out of luck as the inner city shops/mini-markets often have bouncers at night as well, especially as the blood flows in the streets at the weekend! [/quote/ suits me me fine, then. Why in gods name would I WANT to visit such a place?

LadyPact -> RE: Hate Crime v. TG (4/23/2011 10:19:24 AM)
I couldn't look at your profile to see where you live, but now I'm curious.

NocturnalStalker -> RE: Hate Crime v. TG (4/23/2011 10:36:57 AM)
I'll say Utah.

WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Hate Crime v. TG (4/23/2011 10:37:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact I couldn't look at your profile to see where you live, but now I'm curious. I'm making out its worse then it really is - I live in a southern city in the emerald isle but its as bad or probably a lot worse elsewhere like parts of London, Liverpool, Glasgow etc. quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop quote: If you wouldn't visit a restaurant where I live then you would be out of luck as the inner city shops/mini-markets often have bouncers at night as well, especially as the blood flows in the streets at the weekend! suits me me fine, then. Why in gods name would I WANT to visit such a place? I wouldn't know but I thought you brought up visiting restaurants. I suppose McDonalds is a "restaurant" but only by sticking strictly to the meaning of the word! [;)]

cloudboy -> RE: Hate Crime v. TG (4/23/2011 12:32:05 PM)
quote: I have never seen anyone posting here subjected to nonconsensual physical abuse. If you think that what happens here is simlar to that kind of beating, I usggest that you take a vacation from your computer. It is a msg board, so physical abuse was not the reference. But I am in a minority with a different eye for things than others. I would never recommend that either sissies or CDs post here looking to form a connection because it won't go well for them. They are group paddling upstream in so many ways, but the video of TG woman getting beat up is just really the outward expression of how many actually feel on the inside, namely turned off and hostile. The twist is the hostility coming from other women, that's the differentiating factor from what Gays experience, who experience hostility mostly from men. Expressions of "turned off" and "hostile" come in many varieties, but here its mostly in the form of negative projections. You know, CDs and Sissies wouldn't have such a problem finding partners if they weren't, well, you know, CDs and Sissies.

DarkSteven -> RE: Hate Crime v. TG (4/23/2011 2:50:00 PM)
There are several TGs here that get quite well treated. stella, hausboy, and MaxsBoy come to mind, and I'm sure I'm missing some. OtterSwim kinda bridges the gap between being TG and CD. They are quite capable of contributing to the forums in all aspects, not just their gender identity. Posters who are one trick ponies, focusing solely on their fetish, do get looked down upon, whether it's TG/CD or something else.

DomKen -> RE: Hate Crime v. TG (4/23/2011 3:41:28 PM)
Don't frget LadyEllen.

Rule -> RE: Hate Crime v. TG (4/23/2011 3:46:10 PM)
Nor that Canadian fairy girl. (I forgot her nick.) I miss her humor. I hope that she is still among the living?

JstAnotherSub -> RE: Hate Crime v. TG (4/23/2011 4:34:49 PM)
They just said on the news that the owner of the McDonalds has fired the employee who videotaped the beating. I must have been so disgusted that I missed it was an employee. Couldn't even use his damn phone to dial 911. Had to use it to capture the action. I can only hope the employee gets his ass kicked soon, and maybe, if we are real lucky, there will be a tape on YouTube showing it! Some of the above is sarcasm.....you decide which it is.

lazarus1983 -> RE: Hate Crime v. TG (4/23/2011 5:59:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy quote: I have never seen anyone posting here subjected to nonconsensual physical abuse. If you think that what happens here is simlar to that kind of beating, I usggest that you take a vacation from your computer. It is a msg board, so physical abuse was not the reference. But I am in a minority with a different eye for things than others. I would never recommend that either sissies or CDs post here looking to form a connection because it won't go well for them. They are group paddling upstream in so many ways, but the video of TG woman getting beat up is just really the outward expression of how many actually feel on the inside, namely turned off and hostile. The twist is the hostility coming from other women, that's the differentiating factor from what Gays experience, who experience hostility mostly from men. Expressions of "turned off" and "hostile" come in many varieties, but here its mostly in the form of negative projections. You know, CDs and Sissies wouldn't have such a problem finding partners if they weren't, well, you know, CDs and Sissies. Can you provide us with an example of this harassment on these boards?

TheShrew -> RE: Hate Crime v. TG (4/23/2011 8:20:09 PM)
Please, read my response twice before you fly up my nose, because I do not advocate physical violence of any kind, against anyone, for many reasons. {Unless you are being attacked/defending yourself.. then, you kick their ass.} In the South there is an old redneck phrase ... "just because a cat can birth her kittens in the oven, that don't make'em biscuits." In comparison, "just because the gentleman fancies himself a lady, that does not make him female." Like it or not, the general rules we abide by each day were constructed by the vanilla world, and I think it safe to say quite a few people in this world are vanilla/straight-laced. Hence, it stands to reason a couple of straight laced, vanilla girls would perceive a man using the ladies room as some type of perv out to harm/peep them. NO, I am NOT alluding that this was his intent. Merely speculating on how negatively most women would react to discovering a man in the ladies room.. in drag. Shame on the people who watched the spectacle as well as the person filming. Kudos to the man in the blue shirt who repeatedly intervened. Kudos to the old lady for attempting to defend the man, and shame on the girl who punched the old lady in the eye. ~ Repetition for the skimmers ~ I am not advocating physical violence against this person for his sexual preference or gender affiliation. I am saying .. perhaps, he should not have been in the ladies room.

cloudboy -> RE: Hate Crime v. TG (4/23/2011 8:58:50 PM)
True enough. Just keep in mind that that violence does not happen in a vacuum; it springs from embedded hostilities. Its outward expression assumes varied forms.

hausboy -> RE: Hate Crime v. TG (4/23/2011 9:08:37 PM)
As Fox said, this happened quite close to both of us. I actually have been in that McDonalds in Rosedale. (hate to actually admit that but, yes, from time to time I eat total garbage) It's a horrible reality, and I wish I could tell you that this type of thing is rare, but it isn't. It is a risk that many transwomen face daily....it's a risk that many pre-transition transmen face as well. There is a vigil being planned for her-- it is absolutely sickening to me that anyone could find delight in harming another person, and stand by while it happens. It sickens me worse that some find it entertaining to make flippant remarks at her expense. I absolutely will not read any of the "responses" that some have posted o the local newspaper. They have both girls in custody--they are contemplating charging them with a racially motivated hate crime. The local groups here and in DC are pushing to make this a hate crime based on gender identity but surprise, surprise...... we aren't "protected." If this isn't a hate crime, I don't know what it is. I hope she recovers quickly and receives support.

hausboy -> RE: Hate Crime v. TG (4/23/2011 9:19:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheShrew Please, read my response twice before you fly up my nose, because I do not advocate physical violence of any kind, against anyone, for many reasons. {Unless you are being attacked/defending yourself.. then, you kick their ass.} In the South there is an old redneck phrase ... "just because a cat can birth her kittens in the oven, that don't make'em biscuits." In comparison, "just because the gentleman fancies himself a lady, that does not make him female." Like it or not, the general rules we abide by each day were constructed by the vanilla world, and I think it safe to say quite a few people in this world are vanilla/straight-laced. Hence, it stands to reason a couple of straight laced, vanilla girls would perceive a man using the ladies room as some type of perv out to harm/peep them. NO, I am NOT alluding that this was his intent. Merely speculating on how negatively most women would react to discovering a man in the ladies room.. in drag. Shame on the people who watched the spectacle as well as the person filming. Kudos to the man in the blue shirt who repeatedly intervened. Kudos to the old lady for attempting to defend the man, and shame on the girl who punched the old lady in the eye. ~ Repetition for the skimmers ~ I am not advocating physical violence against this person for his sexual preference or gender affiliation. I am saying .. perhaps, he should not have been in the ladies room. Shrew--I usually enjoy (and agree) with your posts. Your post above, I cannot agree with. First--everything that we have heard thus far from the local press is that the victim is a transgendered woman. She isn't exactly a poster girl of a model citizen, but regardless, she is living as a woman. While you're correct, most of the nilla world refuses to accept her as such, calling her a man (that was my interpretation of your post--I do hope I'm mistaken) isn't really accurate or fair. The two girls followed her into the restroom with the intent of beating her. If they were concerned that (as you put it) a "man" went into the ladies room, they could have told the management to let them deal with it. What they did was unacceptable (I'm sure you agree with me on that point) and to hear bystanders laughing, it was deplorable. Nothing is more disrespectful or demeaning to me than when I am called by the wrong pronouns, regardless of how I present. It happens- on rare occasion-- by people who knew me before--and they usually are people who do not care for me (and vice versa) and they do it to be intentionally ignorant. I'm certain this was not your intent--but I felt compelled to respond. Regardless of what one might think, she is a woman. Maybe not a biological woman, but she is a woman. It would have been completely inappropriate for her to use the men's room. She has every right to go to a public place and use the facilities, as any dare I say it? "normal" woman should.

TheHeretic -> RE: Hate Crime v. TG (4/23/2011 9:24:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hausboy The two girls followed her into the restroom with the intent of beating her. Do you have a good source on this? There is obviously more to the story than what the video shows.

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