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RE: Biggest mistake in recent American history - 4/26/2011 2:52:54 PM   
jeffy29x


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn




quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffy29x

Ok call me crazy, but it is hard to believe that all of the USA was aware of "unofficial arms dealings with Iran and Iraq, but neither of those countries had any idea. Are you basically telling me they are all morons in those countries?




No no, not reading in order there. I can understand from reading the thread though.

Taking 66 US hostages and holding them for 444 days and releasing them almost immediately after the new US president was inaugurated just to rub it in tends to piss people off quite a lot, and so it was in the US.

All parties public and private knew about the US support to Iraq, if not necessarily the nastiness of some of the chemical weapons included.

The secret arms to Iran occurred in '85'-86 I think, while under an arms embargo. The deal was supposedly an arms for hostages being held in Lebanon exchange. Hussein wasn't nearly as cooperative to US interests as they were hoping he would be, and so they didn't mind playing both sides. Not unprecedented for a larger nation to play both sides in a conflict such as this anyway. Iraq might have caught on eventually, but the whole thing didn't go on for long before being blown by a reporter in the Mideast. Then everybody knew and Reagan had to go on TV and explain.







Ok what I am still disturbed about is where you say " a conflict such as this"  Iraq tried to conquer Iran,  It was not like some internal conflict where the US would pick a side they want to win and support them. I thought the USA stood against that type of aggression. Guess I am still missing somehting

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RE: Biggest mistake in recent American history - 4/26/2011 3:06:20 PM   
pogo4pres


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    Jeffy,
    By limiting the period to post Vietnam you eliminate possibly the largest single fuck up of our middle-east policy in the second 1/2 of the 20th century.  Said fuck up was of course the over throw of the legitimate Iranian government of Mohammed Mossedeq, in 1953, by our then nascent CIA, lead by Allen (not the statesman his brother was) Dulles.  Truman was against this move, but when Eisenhower became president it was given the green light.  Almost all the recent animosity to the U.S. can be traced to this act, along with our unquestioning support of Israel.  Now I am not about to start Israel bashing here, there is no question it has a right to exist.

Oil is the problem, as in we (the world) need oil, and they have the most of it.  So we are stuck dealing with a culture that allows to this day a blood feud to be maintained between two families over a killing that happened in 1385. We forget that little fact at our own peril, as we seem to think the middle east peoples will forget our complicity in 1953.


Historically,
Some Knucklehead in NJ


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RE: Biggest mistake in recent American history - 4/26/2011 3:28:22 PM   
jeffy29x


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pogo4pres

FR

  Jeffy,
  By limiting the period to post Vietnam you eliminate possibly the largest single fuck up of our middle-east policy in the second 1/2 of the 20th century.  Said fuck up was of course the over throw of the legitimate Iranian government of Mohammed Mossedeq, in 1953, by our then nascent CIA, lead by Allen (not the statesman his brother was) Dulles.  Truman was against this move, but when Eisenhower became president it was given the green light.  Almost all the recent animosity to the U.S. can be traced to this act, along with our unquestioning support of Israel.  Now I am not about to start Israel bashing here, there is no question it has a right to exist.

Oil is the problem, as in we (the world) need oil, and they have the most of it.  So we are stuck dealing with a culture that allows to this day a blood feud to be maintained between two families over a killing that happened in 1385. We forget that little fact at our own peril, as we seem to think the middle east peoples will forget our complicity in 1953.


Historically,
Some Knucklehead in NJ



Thanks, so what i thought started USA hatred in the 80's actually started in the 1950's. So the reason we would let Iraq do what they did in the 80's was because of problems that we have had with Iran for decades previous.

They do not teach important stuff like this that is actually relevant in high school.


< Message edited by jeffy29x -- 4/26/2011 3:30:04 PM >

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RE: Biggest mistake in recent American history - 4/26/2011 4:52:34 PM   
Real0ne


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being a republican or a democrat!


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RE: Biggest mistake in recent American history - 4/26/2011 6:01:13 PM   
gungadin09


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pam

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 4/26/2011 6:04:59 PM >

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RE: Biggest mistake in recent American history - 4/26/2011 6:47:45 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

Not putting Gore in office.

pam

I honestly wonder sometimes if Gore had won would OBL have still have pulled off 9-11.

My emotional side says maybe not. My cold analytical side says 99.99999% yes.

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RE: Biggest mistake in recent American history - 4/26/2011 7:01:14 PM   
Edwynn


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I think there would have been a greater likelihood of Gore having post-9/11 recognition of the many possibilities for long term US advantage possible from the great drop in Al Qaeda and all other terrorist groups' volunteerism and great increase in cooperation  from previously recalcitrant governments and their intelligence in those matters. That was the situation between 9/11 and the invasion, of which event caused all the aforementioned not only to go away in an instant but head even much further in the opposite direction. Which is to say I think it would be a noticeably less dangerous world than it is now.




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RE: Biggest mistake in recent American history - 4/26/2011 7:06:57 PM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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Status: offline 		Not sure if this qualifies as "recent" but I believe the McCarthyist era (and the 20's Red Scare perhaps) permanently stained America's reputation (sorry Canadians!). In terms of global perception I think it is a lot more important than the more recent foreign policy issues although that is more present in people's minds. Of course the poor choices made in going to war damaged the rep of the US but seen in a different context it merely backed up the attitude of many (particularly on the left) that the US were the real bad guys so I see the Red Scares as the principle reason for America's poor image today. I'm not saying the fears people had about communism weren't justified at the time but the extreme reaction made the US look like an evil reactionary place to many people. This was in stark contrast to attitudes about Western Europe even though it shares many cultural similarities. It may have even affected the US internally as it seems the left-right/democrat-republican political divide became much more distinctive during that era AFAIK!

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RE: Biggest mistake in recent American history - 4/26/2011 7:12:33 PM   
gungadin09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
I honestly wonder sometimes if Gore had won would OBL have still have pulled off 9-11.


Oh, i think it would have happened, but i think the government would have reacted better. i think the most serious problems that came from 9/11 were because of the government's reaction to it, and not the fact that it happened at all.

pam

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RE: Biggest mistake in recent American history - 4/26/2011 7:13:28 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Status: offline 		I'll buy that. Afghanistan invaded and taken care of without the distraction of that mess in Iraq?

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RE: Biggest mistake in recent American history - 4/26/2011 7:25:23 PM   
gungadin09


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Status: offline 		What if we took the money we spent in Iraq and took some of it to rebuild Afganistan, and the rest of it to improve education in the U.S.?

pam

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RE: Biggest mistake in recent American history - 4/26/2011 7:28:04 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

What if we took the money we spent in Iraq and took some of it to rebuild Afganistan, and the rest of it to improve education in the U.S.?

pam

Exxon/Mobile and BP would never allow that unless Halliburton got the construction contract.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Biggest mistake in recent American history - 4/26/2011 7:29:20 PM   
servantforuse


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Status: offline 		Electing Baraak Obama as president.

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RE: Biggest mistake in recent American history - 4/26/2011 7:29:42 PM   
gungadin09


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Status: offline 		Then thay can have it. But with campaign finance reform, maybe they wouldn't have had as much say.

pam

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RE: Biggest mistake in recent American history - 4/26/2011 7:48:13 PM   
Edwynn


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"Not sure if this qualifies as "recent" but I believe the McCarthyist era (and the 20's Red Scare perhaps) permanently stained America's reputation ... "


Being that the focus is on the Middle East here ...

In regards to Europe's take on things, that may be true  (though it does seem a bit of a stretch). But in the Middle East I'm not so sure. In the twenties they were having the new experience of the whole region being drawn a new map by Britain and divied up amoung the WWI allies. Being what the region was at the time I doubt they noticed much anything elsewhere in the world even in the absence of that distraction.

Likewise in the fifties they likely were more focused on the machinations of the UK and US in overthrowing Mohammed Mossedeq (as Pogo pointed out in post#:22 above) and installing the Shah Pahlavi after the previous made the mistake of nationalizing Iran's oilfields in '51 after he was elected. The Anglo-Iranian Oil Co. was not pleased at that and the situation was rectified. I'm sure the other countries previously considering nationalization were paying more attention to that than some theatre going on in the congress/parliament of the well 'owners.'










< Message edited by Edwynn -- 4/26/2011 8:07:49 PM >

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RE: Biggest mistake in recent American history - 4/26/2011 8:00:59 PM   
Brain


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Status: offline 		The United States supported Iraq because:

1) The hostage crisis and the animosity of Iranians towards the United States because of American interference in Iranian domestic politics

2) Iranians are of the Shia religion, like Syria and Hamas. Saddam Hussein was of the Sunni religion and the Sunnis controlled Iraq even though there are more Shia people in Iraq than Sunnis

3) The United States supports Sunnis and not Shia because Saudi Arabia is a Sunni country and the United States gets a lot of oil from Saudi Arabia

Of course, the Middle East is complicated and there is much activity behind the scenes that we don't know but these are the main reasons. I believe the Saudis wanted the United States to support Iraq because Iraq is controlled by Sunnis like Saudi Arabia is controlled by Sunnis and they stick together.

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RE: Biggest mistake in recent American history - 4/26/2011 8:13:37 PM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

Being that the focus is on the Middle East here ...

In regards to Europe's take on things, that may be true. But in the Middle East I'm not so sure. In the twenties they were having the new experience of the whole region being drawn a new map by Britain and divied up amoung the WWI allies. Being what the region was at the time I doubt they noticed much anything elsewhere in the world even in the absence of that distraction.

Likewise in the fifties they likely were more focused on the Machinations of the UK and US in overthrowing Mohammed Mossedeq and installing the Shah Pahlavi after the previous made the mistake of nationalizing Iran's oilfields in '51 after he was elected. The Anglo-Iranian Oil Co. was not pleased at that and the situation was rectified. I'm sure the other countries previously considering nationalization were paying more attention to that than some theatre going on in the congress/parliament of the well 'owners.'



You're correct, the Mid-East would see the US differently to Europe with a very different political climate. My comment was more about the broad international view of the US. It may have some relevance to the Mid-East though because the US was just one of two superpowers, foreign ideas probably gained a lot of currency because many nationalist movements at the time there were socialist (some nominally perhaps) and some nations had allegiance with the USSR/China.

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RE: Biggest mistake in recent American history - 4/26/2011 10:15:06 PM   
jeffy29x


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

What if we took the money we spent in Iraq and took some of it to rebuild Afganistan, and the rest of it to improve education in the U.S.?

pam


What if we declared victory in both Iraq and Afghanistan, Had a bunch of parades around the country, have Obama give a really good speech about the troops efforts, declare a holiday on the Friday after a week of parades, everyone gets drunk, then we are not at war anywhere anymore?

Americans love winning, and since all we are doing is nation building in both countries, there is no real definition of victory in nation building, so just declare victory and leave, it is that simple.

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