aromanholiday
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Joined: 4/12/2011
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lally2
if you feel you need to act up for youre dominant so he can get off on punishing you then that is eventually going to screw with youre attempts to be obedient and submissive.
there is being playfully spirited and there is being annoyingly frustratingly manipulative
you also need to consider the point that each time you play up for a punishment you are the one riding the relationship the way you want it to go and youre turning youre Dominant into youre own personal whipping boy.
All of these are excellent points, in my opinion. Thank you for bringing them up.
When I really want to please someone, I'll look for every way in which to do so. I try to read the "unspoken language" of the dominant: what he doesn't say as well as what he does. I don't think that is unusual for submissive people who like to please. Unless the dominant is very explicit about this area (how he feels about the submissive eliciting punishment through bad behavior) or unless I am aware of my tendency to read between the lines, I might come to a conclusion that he wants me to disobey so that he'll have opportunities to punish me, even if those punishment sessions have no sense of "fun" about them--for me. This would be immensely confusing, even emotionally corrupting for me, because acts of disobedience, in themselves--never mind the consequences--are never pleasant. I feel terrible for disobeying, even if I am doing it with some higher metagoal in mind of giving him pleasure. Disobedience, even for a higher good, still strikes me as bad and wrong, so I feel like a terrible slave. Unintentional disobedience is bad enough; intentional disobedience sucks--in all ways. Luckily, I've never had a serious encounter with a dominant who wanted me to intentionally act against my nature so that he could get the pleasure of punishing me--not even in his unspoken messages.
quote:
...punishment as a kink is a strong element in many relationships and to varying degrees and for varying purposes keeps the whole thing ticking along really happily.
I agree. To me and to some of the people I've encountered, it's another expression of control, which is the actual underlying kink.
quote:
for the OP i would say be youreself, naturally, normally, do youre best and if youre dominant starts picking holes or finding fault in order to punish then you need to talk to him. believe me it really is a hiding to nowhere if you find punishment a negative and scary thing and will undermine youre efforts to please big time. trying to please the unpleasable because theyre looking for any and all excuse to punish isnt healthy if that isnt youre kink.
This is for the most part great advice. I would add one caveat to it. Determining whether a dominant is picking holes or finding fault with what you think is good behavior is not the best idea if what you're both working toward is a master-slave relationship. When working toward that goal, I think it is important for the submissive party to determine, long before it reaches the hole-picking stage, whether you can place complete trust in this dominant and potential master. If you can, if who the person is far overshadows, in your mind, any actions they might take (yes, I know that is an extreme attitude to have, but sometimes it happens, especially if you are deliberately seeking out exactly this sort of situation and luck out), then you can naturally and wholeheartedly accept that since he is your master anything he does is fair and even most fine. In these relatively uncommon situations, anything is fair game--if the dominant does it or wants it--including acts like finding fault with actions today that yesterday he had no problem with or otherwise abruptly and without warning changing the rules or protocols by which you live. As long as the essential principle of who is in control remains intact, this is not particularly harmful to a slave, although it may be disconcerting when it occurs. To someone who is very controlled, nothing but some surface behavior or attitudes has changed, the essential control core remains intact, so all is well.
Perhaps in that sort of relationship (and I am not sure about what I say next at all, this is far out on the speculation curve and is nothing I have directly experienced) even behaviors that I label as "corrupting" or "confusing" to one's submissive nature could be ordered and performed without harming that core. Behaviors such as acting out to get harsher punishments or even dominating the dominant. I really don't know if this can be done successfully, I'm just throwing the idea out as food for thought. I do think it's potentially quite dangerous to the relationship to order a slave to do such things, as they go so far against the submissive grain, and may deeply confuse that person as a result. As some have said in the TPE thread, control has it limits. One of those limits might be ordering behavior that baldly contradicts submissive feelings: sure, you can order it and sure, if they are a good, obedient slave they will do it, but these experiences may "mess" with their minds and hearts so much that the slave's personality changes in unexpected and unwanted ways.
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"Isn't it odd how we misunderstand the hidden unity of kindness and cruelty?"
My profile is not turned off. It is broken and I am too lazy to make a new one.
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RE: New sub with ? about punishment/pain - 
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