Organic Rankine Cycle (Full Version)

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Icarys -> Organic Rankine Cycle (5/7/2011 9:51:23 AM)

I'm putting this out there for those that have not heard of the technology and for those that might be curious about alternative energy.

This tech has been around for around 40 years or so and is being used throughout the entire world. Large scale reclamation of low-temperature waste heat/power power. In it's simplistic form, it's pretty straightforward and most people, I believe anyway, would be able to build a simple system for small amounts of power.(1kw-5kw daily "easily").

Most plants use a number of working fluids with a low boiling point to turn an engine/turbine to recapture waste energy and turn it into usable electricity. Just heat said fluid with an outside heat source such as a furnace, the Sun, car engines and so on and you have waste heat recaptured power.


Here's a starter article about a team from MIT that's built an inexpensive system for a school in Africa out of available parts.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/4232571

One more article about it in Alaska.

http://energy-alaska.wikidot.com/organic-rankine-cycle-heat-recovery-system




Termyn8or -> RE: Organic Rankine Cycle (5/7/2011 10:32:39 AM)

You let us down last time.

This is nothing but a glorified Stirling cycle engine.

T^T




DomKen -> RE: Organic Rankine Cycle (5/7/2011 11:35:59 AM)

Rankine and Stirling are slightly different ways of building a heat engine.

Also kilowatt is a measure of work and is pretty miniscule. At 120V supply it is an instantaneous consumption of 8 1/3 amps. most household cicuits are 15 amps continuous load. When discussing power usage it is more common to discuss kilowatt/hours.




DomKen -> RE: Organic Rankine Cycle (5/7/2011 11:38:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
I've got a tenuous date for my move. As it stands right now I'm looking for more practical ways to produce power. This and steam would be the way.

A Rankine cycle engine is a steam engine.

BTW the ad hominen I deleted does nicely admit you couldn't beat the second law.




Icarys -> RE: Organic Rankine Cycle (5/7/2011 11:58:42 AM)

quote:

A Rankine cycle engine is a steam engine.

You don't say.

quote:

BTW the ad hominen I deleted does nicely admit you couldn't beat the second law.

In your distorted view of reality I can surely understand why you'd say something like that and even believe it but as I'm sure you're going to pass over or maybe try to forget, even Term understood I wasn't breaking any laws, nor was I advocating it.

You hold onto it though, I know you must need it.[:D]




DomKen -> RE: Organic Rankine Cycle (5/7/2011 12:49:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

A Rankine cycle engine is a steam engine.

You don't say.

quote:

BTW the ad hominen I deleted does nicely admit you couldn't beat the second law.

In your distorted view of reality I can surely understand why you'd say something like that and even believe it but as I'm sure you're going to pass over or maybe try to forget, even Term understood I wasn't breaking any laws, nor was I advocating it.

You hold onto it though, I know you must need it.[:D]


Nice try but not good enough. You flirted with calling the stuff your were enthused about free energy but would never come out and say clearly what you expected to put in versus what you expected to get out. That's why I wouldn't bet you.

Now you come back and try to pretend you didn't get called on your BS and threw a temper tantrum but the great thing about forums like this is those old posts are still here and can easily be linked to.




samboct -> RE: Organic Rankine Cycle (5/7/2011 1:13:26 PM)

Not steam engine- heat engine if you want to be pedantic for any process that uses differences in temperature to produce power. The steam engine was the model, but even thermoelectrics are constrained by Carnot efficiency. Note that PV cells are not.

Yes, people have proposed using "waste heat" for a number of years- especially industrial waste heat. There's a reason it's considered waste heat- the amount of contraption you have to build to utilize it doesn't make good sense economically- unless your contraption is cheaper than what could be built using high temperature heat. And low temperature heat is inherently less efficient since the ghost of Sidi Carnot is chiming in who will tell you that since the 1800s- we've known that efficiency is measured as 1-T1/T2 where T1 is the temperature of the surroundings and T2 is the temperature that you're getting to- measured in Kelvin. So starting with room temp at 298K and using low temperature waste heat of around 70C or 368K we have the following 1-(0.81) or about 19% efficiency. That's theoretical- can't be altered and what you're starting from. Then there are the losses from trying to use that energy.

So in practice unless you some up with something that's much, much cheaper that can use say 70 degree C waste heat than a conventional boiler/turbine- you're wasting your money. And it has to only use low grade heat- if it doesn't melt at higher temp, then it will always be more efficient to run that way. People have been playing around with things like thermoelectrics to generate electricity from waste heat- it can be done- it's just cheaper to utilize a somewhat bigger gizmo at higher temperature to date. So if someone can come up with a cheap polymer thermolectric- in theory it could be economical. In practice- it's been slightly problematic. Stuff I've seen to use low grade industrial heat winds up costing as much or more than high grade heat- you wind up with large contraptions to capture the heat since you need more of the low grade heat to do something useful.

Sam




Termyn8or -> RE: Organic Rankine Cycle (5/7/2011 5:43:00 PM)

FR

You guys STOP, or I'm turning this car around RIGHT NOW lol.

Ken, you never believe anything, and we're cool with that. Your skepticism just differs from mine.

Icary, you were supposed to prove something. Remember about the magnets ? How's that going ?

Incidentally if you like to use heat for something I have these things that might be of interest. Fresnel lenses. Next Wednesday I'll have another. It's the inner screen from a bigscreen tv. Fifty inches diagonal, at a 3:4 aspect, that means it is 30" by 40". Hold it up on a sunny day and you can burn concrete. The heat is so intense in makes acetylene look like a pack of matches.

Now of course using it concentrates the sun's rays. It's still not free energy even in the most liberal definition, because it casts a shadow. You gain nothing, it's just a matter of concentrating energy. However I kinda collect these things because I think they could be put to good use.

Producing/converting energy is a wonderful thing, but really the best trick is to store it effectively. Losslessly. There is gold, you don't need a philosopher's stone, but a nice secure safe would be a good idea. Store cold, heat, mechanical or electrical energy more efficiently and the world will trample the better mousetrap on the way to your doorstep.

T^T




Icarys -> RE: Organic Rankine Cycle (5/7/2011 9:08:12 PM)

quote:

Incidentally if you like to use heat for something I have these things that might be of interest. Fresnel lenses. Next Wednesday I'll have another. It's the inner screen from a bigscreen tv. Fifty inches diagonal, at a 3:4 aspect, that means it is 30" by 40". Hold it up on a sunny day and you can burn concrete. The heat is so intense in makes acetylene look like a pack of matches.

Now of course using it concentrates the sun's rays. It's still not free energy even in the most liberal definition, because it casts a shadow. You gain nothing, it's just a matter of concentrating energy. However I kinda collect these things because I think they could be put to good use.

I'm familiar with Fresnel Lenses. For various reasons, I'm opting out of those for wood stoves. They are really neat, though. Similar approaches are being developed for concentrating the Sun's rays, very effectively. They of course would work very well, also.

quote:

Producing/converting energy is a wonderful thing, but really the best trick is to store it effectively. Losslessly. There is gold, you don't need a philosopher's stone, but a nice secure safe would be a good idea. Store cold, heat, mechanical or electrical energy more efficiently and the world will trample the better mousetrap on the way to your doorstep.


Storage will be accomplished with AGM battery sets. Not the most effective but cost wise..They'll do for now.

As for the rest, I've explained. I'm moving onto more practical things because my timeline has been moved up and I need all the money I can get to make this happen. You're welcome to think whatever you like because of it. I've got nothing to prove. I know what will and won't work.

I have little time to do anything but run a business where I work from 9:00 till 7:00 and then work on my projects with a very short amount of time to get a working system up and running.




Termyn8or -> RE: Organic Rankine Cycle (5/8/2011 10:30:56 AM)

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I'd like to see you get that magnetic thingy working. If not I might have to do it, and I am way lazier.

T^T




Icarys -> RE: Organic Rankine Cycle (5/8/2011 12:29:13 PM)

quote:

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I'd like to see you get that magnetic thingy working. If not I might have to do it, and I am way lazier.

T^T

I'll be glad to give you starter info so you can do it yourself. It's going to cost you a chunk of change for the magnets but if you can afford it, you're welcome to the base info.

I can't help you with the lazy part though. [:D]

I'm off to take apart an old weed eater motor and see what happens when I put air to it. I've seen some of these work rather well, relatively speaking, for steam engines.




Icarys -> RE: Organic Rankine Cycle (5/8/2011 1:28:02 PM)

Easy as pie. Done already. It works fine on air, now onto steam.

I can't use this for an ORC for a number of reasons but it sure is fun to get practical experience for a steam build. I'll purchase the "boiler" and fittings next week and will be able to use those, for testing anyway, on both systems. Steam first of course because the ORC will be a closed loop.





outhere69 -> RE: Organic Rankine Cycle (5/8/2011 1:59:52 PM)

How will you deal with the issues samboct raised?




Icarys -> RE: Organic Rankine Cycle (5/8/2011 2:10:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: outhere69

How will you deal with the issues samboct raised?

You're talking inefficiencies? You may tweak the systems but they will always be there. You'd have to understand how it's going to be implemented maybe to see why efficiency isn't that big of a deal.

I'm using a woodtove to heat the cabin. I'll have excess waste heat to use. I can either turn that heat into electricity, hot water and or cooking use.

I have no doubt that you can understand the simplicity of a basic ORC intended for such use and why it would easily work and be beneficial. My total daily consumption with a remote purpose freezer, lights, TV, DVD player, satellite internet and a few odd and end devices will be lower than 1500 watts per day. During the spring and summer I'll use PV panels and the occasional outdoor setup for the ORC and during winter when I'll be using the stove anyway, I'll use the ORC, mainly.




DomKen -> RE: Organic Rankine Cycle (5/8/2011 2:38:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
I have no doubt that you can understand the simplicity of a basic ORC intended for such use and why it would easily work and be beneficial. My total daily consumption with a remote purpose freezer, lights, TV, DVD player, satellite internet and a few odd and end devices will be lower than 1500 watts per day. During the spring and summer I'll use PV panels and the occasional outdoor setup for the ORC and during winter when I'll be using the stove anyway, I'll use the ORC, mainly.

I assume you mean 1500 watts continous draw. or basically 12.5 amps at 120 volts or 36 kW/h per day. You won't generate that from a waste heat system in a single home. Remember Carnot? A home heating system won't generate very high temps so the efficiency of the heat engine will be very low.




Icarys -> RE: Organic Rankine Cycle (5/8/2011 2:44:42 PM)

quote:

My total daily consumption with a remote purpose freezer, lights, TV, DVD player, satellite internet and a few odd and end devices will be lower than 1500 watts per day

Why would you assume anything when it's written out for you.




samboct -> RE: Organic Rankine Cycle (5/8/2011 6:53:33 PM)

Umm Icarys-

You may want to run your numbers again. A 100 watt lightbulb if its on for 15 hours chews up 1500 watts. Even if you go LED and go to five 20 watt bulbs- that's the same amount of energy. It would really suck to be stuck in the middle of nowhere and be running out of juice.

Sam




Icarys -> RE: Organic Rankine Cycle (5/8/2011 7:21:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Umm Icarys-

You may want to run your numbers again. A 100 watt lightbulb if its on for 15 hours chews up 1500 watts. Even if you go LED and go to five 20 watt bulbs- that's the same amount of energy. It would really suck to be stuck in the middle of nowhere and be running out of juice.

Sam


*grin

I was waiting for someone to get to that point. 1500 watts!!! you can't do anything with that amount. :)

It's a 16'x24' cabin. I want to make it a 2 story but I'm not sure at this stage I will.
A 1 or 2  23 watt bulb used extremely sparingly should do fine. Really sparingly. If not, then I'll do without. How much light does one person need. :)

Thanks for the concern but my numbers are to the T with excess added in for safety. I've done the research for over a year now and checked and rechecked.

The largest power hog will be the freezer and that will be powered down increasingly as the weather gets colder and I can push it out on the balcony. (If I decide to build a second story that is)

No device will remain plugged in besides the freezer till I need them.

Even during the winter close to the Arctic Circle, you'll still get "some" PV power so there will be extra power that I'm not factoring in along with the item below.

Edit: forgot about the backup generator. Purely for safety reasons and large draw tools.

One more thing: I realize that number is extremely low. Most people use that much microwaving food dishes during lunch and dinner. It will definitely be a minimalistic lifestyle. I'm okay with that and look forward to it on multiple levels..some of those levels run very deep for me.

The ORC setup will provide plenty of power and then some for such a lifestyle. on a larger scale, regardless of opinions, it would easily provide power for the average home. There are many variations of the ORC under development at this time which could be installed with new home construction as part of an energy package.

Picture if you would a compact ORC system that would be mounted on a tracking solar collector dish with automatic temp sensors. Very feasible.





Icarys -> RE: Organic Rankine Cycle (5/8/2011 8:09:57 PM)

Maybe this will give you and idea of whats available in low wattage solutions.

I could use a laptop for the DVD player/TV and this to project it onto a larger white screen.

http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=MINIAV-LED-PROJ&cm_mmc=geekmail-_-newarrivals_html-_-06sep08-_-MINIAV-LED-PROJ&AID=10445123&CJPID=4177179

It says 18 watts but I'd have to purchase it and run it on my kill-a-watt device to check the actual watt usage.




Termyn8or -> RE: Organic Rankine Cycle (5/8/2011 8:48:14 PM)

That's pretty minimalist. You have any idea what 480X240 looks like at 80" ? And at 18 watts even in a totally darkened room without having ever smoked pot it'll take your eyes about two days to adjust so you can see the picture. And 99 bucks ? With the way they build shit these days I think it'll be about 99 bucks a month. But if you can deal with it fine.

I am forming the opoinion lately that the next great stride in this technology will be, in a way, backwards. Sell garbage.

I was riding around today and I noticed something. Dandilions. They're all over the place. People want rid of them but down where the corn grows the good ole boys can make wine and booze out of them. Booze can be burned if it's over half alcohol. You walk around stealing dindilions off people's yards, not only will they not call the cops, they'll probably bring you out cookies and milk, or with any luck a beer.

Forget the high tech projector. If you spend a grand on one it's junk within a year, and by that I mean it won't work. Anything new you buy is junk. Every business in this world seems to be run as if it's going out of business next week. You can't count on high tech. Try low tech. One time I expressed an idea. Forget batteries.

Use the solar power to run a pump that fills a sort of a silo. When the sun goes down, turn it around and let gravity turn the generator(s). We have to think outside the realm of extreme chemistry here for many reasons. Use the KISS theory - Keep It Simple Stupid. How can you store energy ? There are many ways of course and I believe the best of them involve gravity.

Even though I am an electronics type dude, I know that it is not the way. Too much process. Every conversion costs. You need water pumped so you have a dam, the water spins a generator and then wires get maybe three quarters of the electricity to where it's needed and what does it do ? Runs a pump. See how stupid that is ?

True advances in this field will come from eliminating some of the steps involved in converting energy.

And 1,500 watts wouldn't run my stereo on a Friday night. I had to get rid of the really big one, it kept tripping a fifteen amp breaker. And that's nothing if anyone needs to arc weld something here. That little buzzbox would melt any battery. Forget McGiver welding with a penny off a car battery. Sure, maybe it could be done but don't count on the car starting afterwards.

I think in the end, gravity is the key. If a vehicle climbs a hill, it uses so many ergs, HP, whatever to do it. That is then potential energy which can do work. A simple pulley lifting a heavy weight stores kinetic energy. Pumping water into an elevated tank stores energy. We have to get it though our thick fucking heads that electricity and electronics are not the do all and end all of this subject. That's for the school taughten folk. We need to go beyond that.

Think you need electricity for a refrigerator ? Hell no, ever hear of absoption refrigeration ? Seems oxymoronic because it actually uses heat to cool, but it works and has for a hundred years or more. Now the heat could be stupidly supplied by an electric element. More intelligently it would be provided by the burning of fossil fuel or whatever will burn. But then there is the sun. Use the heat of the sun to cool ? The hell you say, but it sure as hell can be done. In fact absoption refrigeration was invented before any of us were born.

I guess I'm just old. Does anyone else know why the main voltage source inside elecronic equipment is called B+ ?

(going to craigslist to find me a rockin chair)

T^T




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