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Refining Ecofascism - 5/8/2011 8:56:17 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

You think you're discussing technologies, and you quickly discover that you're discussing belief systems. The battle among environmentalists over how or whether our future energy is supplied is a cipher for something much bigger: who we are, who we want to be, how we want society to evolve. Beside these concerns, technical matters – parts per million, costs per megawatt hour, cancers per sievert – carry little weight. We choose our technology – or absence of technology – according to a set of deep beliefs: beliefs that in some cases remain unexamined.


George Monbiot: Guardian newspaper UK

It's the totalitarianism, stupid!

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RE: Refining Ecofascism - 5/8/2011 9:02:46 AM   
Musicmystery


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I'm not sure it's about totalitarianism. But it is a clash of belief systems.

Nonetheless, I'm still building my passive solar/partially earth sheltered house surrounded by trees and a windmill. The rest of you can spend all you want, but I can't imagine why anyone would want to build a home that requires a permanent energy supply, when it's just neither necessary nor expensive.

Beauty, space, lots of light, and cheaper. That's my belief system.

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RE: Refining Ecofascism - 5/8/2011 9:10:50 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I'm not sure it's about totalitarianism. But it is a clash of belief systems.

Nonetheless, I'm still building my passive solar/partially earth sheltered house surrounded by trees and a windmill. The rest of you can spend all you want, but I can't imagine why anyone would want to build a home that requires a permanent energy supply, when it's just neither necessary nor expensive.

Beauty, space, lots of light, and cheaper. That's my belief system.


Sounds almost as nice as the

Aliso Rock House

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RE: Refining Ecofascism - 5/8/2011 11:44:23 AM   
vincentML


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I don't think it is about totalitarianism. That is a stretch. I do agree it is about clashing belief systems whose adherents are unwilling to accept the catastrophic outcomes the other side imagines. I will admit that the IPCC reports did make it political. But then maybe everything is politics. Even a good blow job.

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RE: Refining Ecofascism - 5/8/2011 11:50:19 AM   
FullCircle


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Realistically there has to be a nuclear option, renewables are not steady state but that didn't seem to be mentioned anywhere in that article. The wind turbines have to be spinning when everyone decides to boil their kettle. Isn't that a problem, I thought it was?

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RE: Refining Ecofascism - 5/8/2011 11:52:21 AM   
DomKen


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Of course it is a clash of belief systems. A clash as old as Aesop who portrayed it as the difference between an ant, that plans for the future, and the grasshopper, that does not. Nowadays we call it short term thinking versus long term thinking.

What puzzles me is when did the so called conservatives in the US become hedonists unconcerned with their welfare of their descedants.

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RE: Refining Ecofascism - 5/8/2011 12:08:18 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Realistically there has to be a nuclear option, renewables are not steady state but that didn't seem to be mentioned anywhere in that article. The wind turbines have to be spinning when everyone decides to boil their kettle. Isn't that a problem, I thought it was?


It is afaik, but there are highly efficient storage technologies not too far from commericalization. But nuclear still needs to be a growing part of our energy mix.


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RE: Refining Ecofascism - 5/8/2011 1:42:35 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Realistically there has to be a nuclear option, renewables are not steady state but that didn't seem to be mentioned anywhere in that article. The wind turbines have to be spinning when everyone decides to boil their kettle. Isn't that a problem, I thought it was?


Very Big Gerbals on wheels.

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RE: Refining Ecofascism - 5/8/2011 1:44:53 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Of course it is a clash of belief systems. A clash as old as Aesop who portrayed it as the difference between an ant, that plans for the future, and the grasshopper, that does not. Nowadays we call it short term thinking versus long term thinking.

What puzzles me is when did the so called conservatives in the US become hedonists unconcerned with their welfare of their descedants.


I am not one to speak for conservatives but i suspect they see the welfare of their descendants in exploiting the old energy technology to its fullest. Yanno, drill baby drill.

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RE: Refining Ecofascism - 5/8/2011 1:47:16 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Realistically there has to be a nuclear option, renewables are not steady state but that didn't seem to be mentioned anywhere in that article. The wind turbines have to be spinning when everyone decides to boil their kettle. Isn't that a problem, I thought it was?


Very Big Gerbals on wheels.

Maybe they could use the radiation from the nuclear plants to breed suitably giant gerbils?

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RE: Refining Ecofascism - 5/8/2011 1:57:30 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

The wind turbines have to be spinning when everyone decides to boil their kettle. Isn't that a problem, I thought it was?

There's no reason why each home can't have metered battery systems.

Here's a proposed plant in California and the largest in America. It isn't anything to sneeze at. No reason again why sunny locations all around the US couldn't have one of these and even on larger scales.
http://gjindex.com/post/4609899103/proposed-solar-plant-in-californias-central-valley


Nuclear is only necessary for the short haul.


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RE: Refining Ecofascism - 5/8/2011 1:59:40 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

Very Big Gerbals on wheels.

Maybe they could use the radiation from the nuclear plants to breed suitably giant gerbils?



But what about the carbon impact of growing the food for the giant gerbils? The greenhouse emissions of their emissions? How are we ever going to persuade people that starving, and freezing to death in the dark, is their duty to the planet?

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Refining Ecofascism - 5/8/2011 2:05:48 PM   
Sanity


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Batteries contain toxic chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

The wind turbines have to be spinning when everyone decides to boil their kettle. Isn't that a problem, I thought it was?

There's no reason why each home can't have metered battery systems.

Here's a proposed plant in California and the largest in America. It isn't anything to sneeze at. No reason again why sunny locations all around the US couldn't have one of these and even on larger scales.
http://gjindex.com/post/4609899103/proposed-solar-plant-in-californias-central-valley


Nuclear is only necessary for the short haul.



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RE: Refining Ecofascism - 5/8/2011 2:07:10 PM   
Moonhead


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So you feel that government regulations on the environmental impact of manufactured goods should be increased, then?
Leftist.

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RE: Refining Ecofascism - 5/8/2011 2:14:30 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Batteries contain toxic chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm.

So does gasoline. What precisely is your point?

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RE: Refining Ecofascism - 5/8/2011 2:17:24 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

Batteries contain toxic chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm.

You can't walk a step in any direction it seems without some bad coming from tech but it sure as hell beats Nuclear and to be honest, I thought you had to breathe fumes in order for that to happen. Some are sealed.

There is another type of battery that's being developed for commercialization as we speak. Once they work out the issues with using capacitors in general, of course. Nuclear Subs I believe use them.. Ultra-capacitors/Super-capacitors.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

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RE: Refining Ecofascism - 5/8/2011 2:19:39 PM   
Sanity


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Im busy right now.

Maybe you can have 059 or rml break it down for you?






< Message edited by Sanity -- 5/8/2011 2:20:21 PM >


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RE: Refining Ecofascism - 5/8/2011 2:26:14 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Realistically there has to be a nuclear option, renewables are not steady state but that didn't seem to be mentioned anywhere in that article. The wind turbines have to be spinning when everyone decides to boil their kettle. Isn't that a problem, I thought it was?


Very Big Gerbals on wheels.

Maybe they could use the radiation from the nuclear plants to breed suitably giant gerbils?


Pandemic 2 - The Startling

(in reply to Moonhead)
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RE: Refining Ecofascism - 5/9/2011 4:58:48 PM   
outhere69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
There is another type of battery that's being developed for commercialization as we speak. Once they work out the issues with using capacitors in general, of course. Nuclear Subs I believe use them.. Ultra-capacitors/Super-capacitors.

Ultracapacitors have been around quite awhile (the '90s IIRC).  Here's a good article on them:

http://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/advanced-cars/the-charge-of-the-ultra-capacitors/0

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RE: Refining Ecofascism - 5/9/2011 5:15:09 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

You think you're discussing technologies, and you quickly discover that you're discussing belief systems. The battle among environmentalists over how or whether our future energy is supplied is a cipher for something much bigger: who we are, who we want to be, how we want society to evolve. Beside these concerns, technical matters – parts per million, costs per megawatt hour, cancers per sievert – carry little weight. We choose our technology – or absence of technology – according to a set of deep beliefs: beliefs that in some cases remain unexamined.


George Monbiot: Guardian newspaper UK

It's the totalitarianism, stupid!


yes it is.

establish the need then control it and by controlling it you control the people who need it.

Imagine all that wire that could be taken down and all you need to do is poke a stick in the ground to get power.

This baby drags it in from the ionosphere and wil multiply the input power by 1000, 10,000 according to Nikola Tesla!

Unfortunately 1000x has been proven so far.





created on 10-15-98 - JLN Labs - last update on 10-29-99

The Magnifying Transmitter by Nikola Tesla : "...It is a resonant transformer with a secondary in which the parts charged to a high potential, are of considerable area and arranged in space along ideal enveloping surfaces of very large radii of curvature, and at proper distances from one another thereby insuring a small electrical surface density everywhere so that no leak can occur even if the conductor is bare. It is suitable for any frequency,from a few to many thousands of cycles per second, and can be used in the production of currents of tremedous volume and moderate pressure, or of smaller amperage and immense electro-motive force. The maximum electric tension is merely dependant on the curvature of the surfaces on which the charged elements are situated and the area of the latter." (1)
In the Tesla's Magnifying transmitter, the energy is countinuously bounced back and forth between the earth and the reflecting capacitance at a rate timed to a natural rate of the earth.....(5)
Nikola Tesla has said in a patent about improvements relating to the Transmission of Electrical energy (4) : ".....Stated otherwise, the terrestrial conductor is thrown into resonance with the oscillations impressed upon it just like a wire. More than this, a number of facts ascertained by me clearly show, that the movement of electricity through it follows certain laws with nearly mathematical rigor. For the present it will be sufficient to state, that the earth behaves like a perfectly smooth or polished conductor of inappreciable resistance, with capacity and self-induction uniformly distributed along the axis of symmetry of waves propagation and transmitting slow electrical oscillations without sensible distortion and attenuation. Besides the above, three requirements seem to be essential to the establishment of the resonating condition.
  1. The earth's diameter passing through the pole should be an odd multiple of the quarter wave-length, that is, of the ratio between the velocity of light and four times the frequency of the currents.
  2. It is necessary to employ oscillations, in which the rate of radiation of energy into space in the form of Hertzians or electromagnetic waves is very small. To give an idea I would say, that the frequency should be smaller than twenty thousand per second, through shorter waves might be practicable. The lowest frequency would appear to be six per second, in which case there will be but one node, at or near the ground plate, and, paradoxical as it may seem, the opposite the transmitter. With oscillations still slower the earth, strictly speaking, will not resonate, but simply act as capacity, and the variation of potential will be more or less uniform over its entire surface.
  3. The most essential requirement is, however, that irrespective of frequency, the wave or wave train should continue for a certain interval of time, which I have estimated to be not less than one twelfth-or probably 0.08484-of a second, and which is taken in passing to, and returning from the region diametrically opposite the pole, over the earth's surface, with a mean velocity of about 471,240 kilometers per second......"
" To produce an electrical movement of the required magnitude it is desirable to charge the terminal as highly as possible, for while a great quantity of electricity may also be displaced by a large capacity charged to low pressure, there are disavantages met with in many cases when the former is made too large. The chief of theses are due to the fact that an increase of the capacity entails a lowering of the frequency impulses or discharges and diminution of energy of vibration....." (3)
"....If we could produce electric effects of the required quality, this whole planet and the conditions of existence on it could be transformed. The sun raises the water of the oceans and winds drive it to distant regions where it remains in state of most delicate balance. If it were in our power to upset it when and wherever desired, this mighty life-sustaining stream could be at will controlled. We could irrigate arid deserts, create lakes and rivers and provide motive power in unlimited amount. This would be the most efficient way of harsening the sun to the uses of man......" ( Nikola Tesla, June 1919 ) (1)

Reference documents :
1) "The Electrical Experimenter: My Invention by Nikola Tesla", June 1919
2) Tesla: Man Out of Time, by Margaret Cheney - Prentice-Hall, Inc
3) Tesla US Patent number 1,119,736 : "Apparatus for transmitting electrical energy" (issued Dec. 1, 1914)
4) Tesla US Patent number 8,200 : " Improvements relating to the transmission of Electrical Energy" (17th Apr.,1906)
5) Theory of Wireless Power, By Eric Dollard, B.S.R.A. 1986.


< Message edited by Real0ne -- 5/9/2011 5:18:18 PM >


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