What is the real meaning of slavery? (Full Version)

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Charles6682 -> What is the real meaning of slavery? (5/10/2011 11:14:27 AM)

The word slave gets thrown around alot in the fetish community.I feel comfortable with the term submissive myself.I don't think that some how makes my service and submission less important.The word slave to me,just brings up bad images.Slavery as it was practiced here in the USA and many other countries around the world was a horrible practice.I can't imagine too many people who would have been proud to call themselves a slave then.Even in modern day time,slavery is still around.Not in the illegal sense that it use to be.I am not talking about slavery in the fetish world either.I am talking about real life sex slaves who are forced to perform inhumane acts against their will.I highly doubt that these people are proud to be called slaves.

The word slave is used way too loosely in the bdsm community,that is my opinion.I just think throwing the word around so easily really disrespects the many slaves who were and are forced in slavery against their wills.I personally feel comfortable with the term submissive.It defines who I am.Yet,I have come across a few women before who said they only want a slave and not just a submissive.That somehow because I use the term submissive,that somehow must mean that my submission has less value to it.

What does the term "slavery" and 'slave" really mean to people in the bdsm community?Do many just view it as nothing more than a word and thats it?Or do many take the term slave,serious?



NocturnalStalker -> RE: What is the real meaning of slavery? (5/10/2011 11:21:21 AM)

People have weird fantasies.  Some people pretend they're kids.  Some pretend they're rape victims.  Some think they're from another planet. 

I chalk it all under, "Remove all silverware before inviting over."



leadership527 -> RE: What is the real meaning of slavery? (5/10/2011 11:23:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682
What does the term "slavery" and 'slave" really mean to people in the bdsm community?Do many just view it as nothing more than a word and thats it?Or do many take the term slave,serious?

I don't take the word "slave" seriously as it is used in the BDSM community. It is an undefined word so how could I possibly take whatever "it" is seriously? I do take my own personal conception of a gestalt of concepts -- TPE, Ownership, Slavery -- very, very seriously. I just don't think anyone else in the world agrees with how I see it or ought to agree or needs to agree.

I do not agree with you that using the word "slave" in the context of intimate relationships has anything whatsoever to do with enforced slavery. Perhaps it's just me, but I'm pretty clear on the distinction between those two concepts. They generate very different emotional responses in me. That's probably because I'm clearly an odd duck. I also played video games for my entire childhood but did not grow up to be a mass murderer. I've watched a fair amount of porn in my life but didn't become a rapist. Go figure, eh?

Seriously, the English language overloads words with multiple meanings in different contexts constantly. Why are you having a problem with it in this context?

Finally, anyone who would judge you strictly on a label without bothering to do any follow-up whatsoever is, if nothing else, very inexperienced (or at least very parochial) insofar as their understanding of "the scene". Why would you want such a person in a dominant position over you to start with?



mynxkat -> RE: What is the real meaning of slavery? (5/10/2011 11:29:43 AM)

Wow, that's actually a good question. Of course, there are probably going to be as many answers as there are Masters, Mistresses, submissives and slaves.

I personally view myself as a slave. Master owns me, and has the absolute final say on any decision. This does not mean that I don't have a brain, or that I don't use it. Master has made it VERY clear to me from the beginning that he values my intelligence and expects me to use it in serving him. I even argue with him about a decision from time to time, but it is HIS decision that is final, each and every time.

To me (and your milage may vary), the difference between a sumbissive and slave is one primarily of outlook. In my eyes, a submissive has a lot more choices than a slave does. The choice to say 'no', for instance. Now I know a lot of Masters and Mistresses will disagree with me on that point, but that's how I see it. A slave only has one 'no' available to them, and that is the choice to end their service to a particular Master or Mistress. That's simplifying things a LOT, but I don't think anyone here is much interested in reading a 3 or 4 page treatise on how one person percieves the differences between submissive and slave. [8D] And of course that also entirely disregards the subject of safewords and limits.

It is unfortunate that the same word is used both for both situations, the voluntary servitude found in the BDSM community and the involuntary servitude forced on people even now. Perhaps we (as a community) should choose or coin a new term for those whose ideas of service and ownership go beyond what most people consider 'submissive' to cover?



sexyred1 -> RE: What is the real meaning of slavery? (5/10/2011 11:33:52 AM)

There is no "real" meaning. It is whatever the people involved think it is.

Trying to define all of this is an exercise in futility as you are going to get a million different replies.



Charles6682 -> RE: What is the real meaning of slavery? (5/10/2011 11:35:39 AM)

I should note that I have seen Collarme use the term "consensual slavery" before.I do think that does help define some of the different terms used for slavery.Especially in this lifestyle.



sexyred1 -> RE: What is the real meaning of slavery? (5/10/2011 11:38:30 AM)

Isn't all of this consensual?

Synonyms
1. thralldom, enthrallment. Slavery, bondage, servitude refer to involuntary subjection to another or others. Slavery emphasizes the idea of complete ownership and control by a master: to be sold into slavery. Bondage indicates a state of subjugation or captivity often involving burdensome and degrading labor: in bondage to a cruel master. Servitude is compulsory service, often such as is required by a legal penalty: penal servitude. 4. moil, labor.

Notice that the word involuntary is the antithesis of consensual.



leadership527 -> RE: What is the real meaning of slavery? (5/10/2011 11:44:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mynxkat
It is unfortunate that the same word is used both for both situations, the voluntary servitude found in the BDSM community and the involuntary servitude forced on people even now. Perhaps we (as a community) should choose or coin a new term for those whose ideas of service and ownership go beyond what most people consider 'submissive' to cover?

OK, a few questions:

a) Why is this unfortunate? The word had to be deliberately chosen to be shocking. In fact it's my observation that alternative folks like to be shocking. I'd say that the word accomplishes it's purpose admirably. And, as I noted above, the English language does this ALL THE TIME. Why is it so unfortunate in this particular situation?

b) Which "we" and which "community" do you think ought to coin this new word? Near as I know it's already happening in the form of "Owner/property". But hey, don't let me stop you. Feel free to coin whatever words you want.

c) And finally, the one that just has me bursting out laughing... how in the heck do you figure you're going to get to any commonality on what "most people consider submissive to cover"? What makes you think we even all use the same definition for the word "submissive" or even "submission". I personally happen to think that "submission" is the umbrella term and it covers "everything". When someone says to me they are a "submissive" I don't infer anything from that... not even that they'll obey... not even in limited contexts. I wait to hear what they mean rather than try to invent answers.

Fundamentally the problem with sub/slave is that there is no distinction.... there's no magical line in the sand... there's just "stuff that might be commanded and might be obeyed" and in every relationship the commands given and the commands obeyed are going to be vastly different. Then, of course, there's a LARGE contingent that sees it more as a spiritual outlook than any specific set of actions (hence my comment that I don't assume that slaves will obey at all).



myotherself -> RE: What is the real meaning of slavery? (5/10/2011 11:47:01 AM)

When Master and I first got involved, we discussed what WE thought the definitions of 'submissive' and 'slave' were. We broadly agreed in our definitions.

After some time together I realised I was more 'slave' than 'sub', and he agreed. So now I'm his slave, based on OUR definition of the term.

However, are we Master and slave based on anyone else's definition, or on a dictionary definition? To be honest, I don't care. It makes not one iota of difference to our relationship or our definitions of the terms we use.

We don't need to check with 'the community' or with 'lifestylers' to see if what we are doing or what we call ourselves is right or wrong. It works for us, and that is what matters.



SailingBum -> RE: What is the real meaning of slavery? (5/10/2011 11:49:58 AM)

I get so tired of this question. No person can be considered chattel in the US. So slavery is a non starter. As a practical matter you can leave whenever you want so how can you be a "slave"?

Well mynx I suggest look up the term slave as you are clueless as slaves don't have limits and safewords yes it's really that simple

BadOne



LadyPact -> RE: What is the real meaning of slavery? (5/10/2011 11:52:06 AM)

My first advice to you would be that if you don't like the term because it brings up bad images for you, don't use it.  At the same time, I'm going to point you to My sig line and tell you that how you interpret M/s really isn't of any consequence to those who choose to use said terminology.

With that said, Jeff is correct.  These terms that we use in the course of wiitwd have various differences in nuances in definition.  At a quick glance, a number of folks are going to say that a M/s dynamic might be more rigid than a D/s one, but without knowing the person's opinion on the difference between M/s and D/s, it's almost impossible to know where someone's definition lies.  Some submissives are more slaves than other people think and some slaves have hard limits up the wahoo. 

For Me personally, I tie My thinking in with level of obedience, power surrendered, and control.  The more of those that a person is willing to give to Me over time, the more likely I'm going to mentally think of them in the slave category.  If I'm not getting that, I'm going to think of that person, as they interact with Me, as a submissive. 



NorthernGent -> RE: What is the real meaning of slavery? (5/10/2011 11:53:36 AM)

I would start by looking at this from legal, emotional and practical perspectives.



NocturnalStalker -> RE: What is the real meaning of slavery? (5/10/2011 11:55:44 AM)

You know what's an even better question?  How did "sleeping over" come to mean by default, "having sex?"  When did something as innocent as that get mixed in with something that would keep you up for a very long time?!  



mynxkat -> RE: What is the real meaning of slavery? (5/10/2011 12:02:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
OK, a few questions:

a) Why is this unfortunate? The word had to be deliberately chosen to be shocking. In fact it's my observation that alternative folks like to be shocking. I'd say that the word accomplishes it's purpose admirably. And, as I noted above, the English language does this ALL THE TIME. Why is it so unfortunate in this particular situation?


Granted, English is littered with examples of a single word covering multiple, fairly frequently mutually exclusive meanings. The unfortunate aspect comes in when people come to associate the meaning with a single meaning, without giving consideration to other possible meanings. In this case, it could be boiled all the way down to the single word 'victim'. Which implies that the slave referred to in the conversation not only had no choice in the matter, but bitterly resents having BEEN a slave (or is percieved to feel that way)... do I really need to continue in that vein? As far as shocking people goes, shock values wanes very quickly. Take as an example most common curse words. 10, 15, 20 years ago the shock value for even the ones we consider mild was much greater than it is today. Even 'f-bombs' don't garner more than perhaps an affronted look these days, whereas 20 years ago to hear such a word spoken out loud in public was...well, shocking.

quote:


b) Which "we" and which "community" do you think ought to coin this new word? Near as I know it's already happening in the form of "Owner/property". But hey, don't let me stop you. Feel free to coin whatever words you want.


I didn't have any particular subset of people who practice various branches of what is lumped together under BDSM in mind. Perhaps if I can think of some word that easily conveys the spirit of consensual slavery (yes, it IS oxymoronic when put like that), I'll start using it. And if other people like they'll take up using it... Perhaps it will start with someone else. Either way, that's fundamentally how new words enter our language. I can point out some specific examples, even, if you need them.

quote:


c) And finally, the one that just has me bursting out laughing... how in the heck do you figure you're going to get to any commonality on what "most people consider submissive to cover"? What makes you think we even all use the same definition for the word "submissive" or even "submission". I personally happen to think that "submission" is the umbrella term and it covers "everything". When someone says to me they are a "submissive" I don't infer anything from that... not even that they'll obey... not even in limited contexts. I wait to hear what they mean rather than try to invent answers.


Did I not state in my first post that you'd get as many different personal definitions of what 'slavery' and 'submissive' are in terms of BDSM as there were people willing to tackle defining them? The only thing that sets a definition of any particular word is people agreeing that 'this word means THIS'. So, to borrow an example, when I use the word 'sailboat', you don't think I'm referring to a furry quadruped with retractile claws.

quote:

Fundamentally the problem with sub/slave is that there is no distinction.... there's no magical line in the sand... there's just "stuff that might be commanded and might be obeyed" and in every relationship the commands given and the commands obeyed are going to be vastly different. Then, of course, there's a LARGE contingent that sees it more as a spiritual outlook than any specific set of actions (hence my comment that I don't assume that slaves will obey at all).



Strange as it may seem, I do basically agree with you on this point. Until enough people come to a consensus as to what, precisely, defines the terms 'slave' and 'submissive' and what the differences between the two are, there is, for all practical purposes, no real difference.



DesFIP -> RE: What is the real meaning of slavery? (5/10/2011 12:25:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mynxkat
Perhaps if I can think of some word that easily conveys the spirit of consensual slavery (yes, it IS oxymoronic when put like that), I'll start using it.


Personally I am exceedingly fond of the term slub, a combination of sub and slave.



leadership527 -> RE: What is the real meaning of slavery? (5/10/2011 12:48:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mynxkat
Strange as it may seem, I do basically agree with you on this point. Until enough people come to a consensus as to what, precisely, defines the terms 'slave' and 'submissive' and what the differences between the two are, there is, for all practical purposes, no real difference.

Well, agreeing with me has been known to be hazardous to your health (or at least your public image) but so long as your consensually agreeing, I suppose I'm ok with it :)

I think the problem here is that it would never be possible to get that agreement nor should it be. Consider the words "husband" and "wife". Were it not for the legal sanctioning and corresponding piece of paper, it would be impossible to define that too. Trying to would only just piss people off. Where, exactly, would one draw the line between... say... bf/gf and husband/wife? Heck, the existence of common law marriage pretty much shows how nebulous that line is even when it IS legally sanctioned.

In the end, Carol obeys me where I care about it. Some of the places I command and she obeys make other people shudder in horror. In some other places, the commands I don't give make us look "not real" (or whatever) to some folks. In some cases, the same couple can see us as both "insane extreme" and "just role playing". There is no simple 1-10 scale. The mapping of someone's most intimate relationship is just going to be horribly complex. Carol is not a 7.8 on the submission scale because there is no such scale and probably shouldn't be.



littlewonder -> RE: What is the real meaning of slavery? (5/10/2011 3:20:52 PM)

It means I have no choice except one...to stay or leave.

It means I am his property.

How anyone else views slavery is not my concern at all. Makes no difference to me. The only thing that matters is how HE views it.




Palliata -> RE: What is the real meaning of slavery? (5/10/2011 5:22:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
I don't take the word "slave" seriously as it is used in the BDSM community. It is an undefined word so how could I possibly take whatever "it" is seriously? I do take my own personal conception of a gestalt of concepts -- TPE, Ownership, Slavery -- very, very seriously. I just don't think anyone else in the world agrees with how I see it or ought to agree or needs to agree.

I do not agree with you that using the word "slave" in the context of intimate relationships has anything whatsoever to do with enforced slavery. Perhaps it's just me, but I'm pretty clear on the distinction between those two concepts. They generate very different emotional responses in me. That's probably because I'm clearly an odd duck. I also played video games for my entire childhood but did not grow up to be a mass murderer. I've watched a fair amount of porn in my life but didn't become a rapist. Go figure, eh?

Seriously, the English language overloads words with multiple meanings in different contexts constantly. Why are you having a problem with it in this context?

Finally, anyone who would judge you strictly on a label without bothering to do any follow-up whatsoever is, if nothing else, very inexperienced (or at least very parochial) insofar as their understanding of "the scene". Why would you want such a person in a dominant position over you to start with?


I agree with this completely. The words as people use them are all but non-communicative because everyone defines them their own way. My conception of slavery and ownership is at the core of my being, as a master and as a human being, but to say those words carry any specific meaning in the larger community even at a linguistic level would be a hard sell in my opinion. I've all but ceased using them in general conversation for exactly that reason - if words mean something completely different to person A than person B or person C what use are they? The only thing that stops me from eschewing them is that there are no more concrete alternatives short of giving the long-form explanation of my approach.

As to the history of slavery and so forth, slavery in that sense isn't far off of what I practice. Rights are stripped away, choice is largely eliminated, and desires are subverted, sublimated, or ignored. The only difference is in mindset and origin - I don't do it purely because I need someone to clean my house or dirty my cock, but instead out of an emotional connection, and I don't do it to people who don't want it.

I am in no way bothered by the bringing up of old historical issues by the words I use. People SHOULD be reminded of those times, and if there is a connection to be drawn with our lifestyle changing the words won't help. You can call me a master or a dom or a cake and at the end of the day I'm still partaking of the same things. There's no disguising it, nor do I intend to.



Icarys -> RE: What is the real meaning of slavery? (5/10/2011 5:37:36 PM)

quote:

I agree with this completely. The words as people use them are all but non-communicative because everyone defines them their own way.

Talk about overloading words.[:D]



Icarys -> RE: What is the real meaning of slavery? (5/10/2011 5:40:53 PM)

quote:

I think the problem here is that it would never be possible to get that agreement nor should it be. Consider the words "husband" and "wife". Were it not for the legal sanctioning and corresponding piece of paper, it would be impossible to define that too.

Thanks goodness it was done. Goes to show you in a sense that people would be a flipping mess if given too much leeway. At least in a small way.



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