RE: Rip-Roaring Feminist Jane Fonda Admits She's Been a Sucker for Alpha Males

RE: Rip-Roaring Feminist Jane Fonda Admits She's Been a Sucker for Alpha Males (Full Version)

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juliaoceania -> RE: Rip-Roaring Feminist Jane Fonda Admits She's Been a Sucker for Alpha Males (5/11/2011 9:19:18 AM)
I think this is fairly obvious when one looks at those she has associated with I read her biography a few years ago, it was obvious to me she is very submissive. I do not see a conflict between being a feminist and being submissive... Just me, etc

Zonie63 -> RE: Rip-Roaring Feminist Jane Fonda Admits She's Been a Sucker for Alpha Males (5/11/2011 9:22:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven Well, duh. She was married to Ted Turner for years. He didn't grow a massive company from nothing by being a sensitive, tender guy. Yeah, but they got divorced, so something must have gone wrong. I always sort of liked Ted Turner. I remember seeing him on "Crossfire," and he managed to cow Robert Novak. I remember him saying, "I know about Crossfire. You always shout everybody down. Well, by God, you're not going to shout me down."

juliaoceania -> RE: Rip-Roaring Feminist Jane Fonda Admits She's Been a Sucker for Alpha Males (5/11/2011 9:27:22 AM)
quote: She married Ted Turner, hello? _____________________________ She was also married to Tom Hayden, and I have met him in person at a peace rally. He is definitely an alpha male, not that I found him appealing,I didn't. He was a bit much of a political expediency type of guy for my blood, but perhaps he was more of an idealist back in the day she knew him She talked extensively about her first husband making her have threesomes with other women, even though she isn't bisexual. Part of the reason she was so into politics was because of Tom Hayden her second husband. She reports she was bulimic because her dad thought thin women were attractive. Her relationship with Ted Turner was also one which she did not have the upper hand... She is so submissive with the men in her life I would be surprised if she hadn't made the connection at her age. Just reading her made it obvious to me that she was a lot like me, willing to do almost anything to make a more powerful man love her, even though she is a very powerful woman. In fact what would a powerful woman love more than a man more powerful than she is?

WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Rip-Roaring Feminist Jane Fonda Admits She's Been a Sucker for Alpha Males (5/11/2011 5:44:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NiceGuyNihilist I took off yesterday before I got around to making the main point I wanted to make, which is that if Jane Fonda's alpha-male ex had been the sort of sensitive, empathic man she said the world needs more of in this speech, he likely wouldn't have been fucking her. How often do feminists choose men who'd wear "this is what a feminist looks like" T-shirts as lovers? It'd be interesting to know. I don't see a contradiction in an alpha woman submitting only to an alpha man. Makes perfect evolutionary sense. The best pair up with the best, the rest pair up with whom they can--basic selfish-gene logic. But JF seems to want a world in which female submission to high-testosterone males is not the general rule--and that will never happen, barring genetic engineering. (And we all know only men can be engineers.) True, Fonda conforms to the stereotype of feminists who are attracted to a certain kind of manly man despite the principles they subscribe to where men are often expected to adopt some of the more traditionally female traits, familial roles etc. Empathy/sensitivity and being a dynamic (ruthless?) go-getter aren't necessarily exclusive but are as close as.

juliaoceania -> RE: Rip-Roaring Feminist Jane Fonda Admits She's Been a Sucker for Alpha Males (5/11/2011 6:06:59 PM)
quote: True, Fonda conforms to the stereotype of feminists who are attracted to a certain kind of manly man despite the principles they subscribe to where men are often expected to adopt some of the more traditionally female traits, familial roles etc. Empathy/sensitivity and being a dynamic (ruthless?) go-getter aren't necessarily exclusive but are as close as. Question: do you think that feminism looks down on women who like alpha males? If you think this you would be wrong.... feminists support the CHOICE to have whatever sort of life a woman will find meaningful, whether that is as a wife and nonworking mother, or a high powered career without either husband or children..

WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Rip-Roaring Feminist Jane Fonda Admits She's Been a Sucker for Alpha Males (5/11/2011 6:13:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: True, Fonda conforms to the stereotype of feminists who are attracted to a certain kind of manly man despite the principles they subscribe to where men are often expected to adopt some of the more traditionally female traits, familial roles etc. Empathy/sensitivity and being a dynamic (ruthless?) go-getter aren't necessarily exclusive but are as close as. Question: do you think that feminism looks down on women who like alpha males? If you think this you would be wrong.... feminists support the CHOICE to have whatever sort of life a woman will find meaningful, whether that is as a wife and nonworking mother, or a high powered career without either husband or children.. I think the answer is both yes and no. Some feminists do but others of a more dogmatic variety don't. Feminism tended to advocate a straight down the middle verson of equality. A prominent feminist in my neck of the woods who faught for womens rights for decades said some months back that women who stayed in the home long term were selling out.

juliaoceania -> RE: Rip-Roaring Feminist Jane Fonda Admits She's Been a Sucker for Alpha Males (5/11/2011 6:20:43 PM)
quote: I think the answer is both yes and no. Some feminists do but others of a more dogmatic variety don't. Feminism tended to advocate a straight down the middle verson of equality. A prominent feminist in my neck of the woods who faught for womens rights for decades said some months back that women who stayed in the home long term were selling out. You do understand that feminism has gone through waves... I believe we are in the midst of 4th wave feminism, which isn't your grandma's feminist movement... I think that Jane Fonda would cheer the options that women have, and since we are talking about Jane Fonda here, and not the little old lady in your neck of the woods, it seems more pertinent to the topic at hand. I am someone that has actually bought books authored by the person in question, and I actually met one of her ex husbands who was an alpha male sorta guy with peacenik profeminist tendencies... I think you have stereotyped both Jane Fonda, and her alpha male consorts, unfairly

WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Rip-Roaring Feminist Jane Fonda Admits She's Been a Sucker for Alpha Males (5/11/2011 6:37:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: I think the answer is both yes and no. Some feminists do but others of a more dogmatic variety don't. Feminism tended to advocate a straight down the middle verson of equality. A prominent feminist in my neck of the woods who faught for womens rights for decades said some months back that women who stayed in the home long term were selling out. You do understand that feminism has gone through waves... I believe we are in the midst of 4th wave feminism, which isn't your grandma's feminist movement... I think that Jane Fonda would cheer the options that women have, and since we are talking about Jane Fonda here, and not the little old lady in your neck of the woods, it seems more pertinent to the topic at hand. I am someone that has actually bought books authored by the person in question, and I actually met one of her ex husbands who was an alpha male sorta guy with peacenik profeminist tendencies... I think you have stereotyped both Jane Fonda, and her alpha male consorts, unfairly Yes but what is normally described as the second wave of feminism (from the late 60's onwards) is still to the fore although arguably feminism is less dogmatic today. A number of high profile feminists are still surprisingly extreme, not a million miles away from the "all men are rapists" clique. You brought up the character of feminism which is why I mentioned the sentiments of one famous feminist who BTW is probably younger than Fonda and more politically active today. I'm not an expert on Fonda as I never particularly liked her movies or her politics but its clear men like Ted Turner are tough as nails businessmen.

juliaoceania -> RE: Rip-Roaring Feminist Jane Fonda Admits She's Been a Sucker for Alpha Males (5/11/2011 6:39:58 PM)
quote: Yes but what is normally described as the second wave of feminism (from the late 60's onwards) is still to the fore although arguably feminism is less dogmatic today. A number of high profile feminists are still surprisingly extreme, not a million miles away from the "all men are rapists" clique. You brought up the character of feminism which is why I mentioned the sentiments of one famous feminist who BTW is probably younger than Fonda and more politically active today. I'm not an expert on Fonda as I never particularly liked her movies or her politics but its clear men like Ted Turner are tough as nails businessmen. Well since this thread is about Fonda, I would think that you would find her views on feminism the only ones that mattered, instead of some obscure lesbian feminists that were in vogue in the late 1960s/early 1970s... I am a fan of Fonda's politics, and her movies were always tolerable.

WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Rip-Roaring Feminist Jane Fonda Admits She's Been a Sucker for Alpha Males (5/11/2011 6:46:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: Yes but what is normally described as the second wave of feminism (from the late 60's onwards) is still to the fore although arguably feminism is less dogmatic today. A number of high profile feminists are still surprisingly extreme, not a million miles away from the "all men are rapists" clique. You brought up the character of feminism which is why I mentioned the sentiments of one famous feminist who BTW is probably younger than Fonda and more politically active today. I'm not an expert on Fonda as I never particularly liked her movies or her politics but its clear men like Ted Turner are tough as nails businessmen. Well since this thread is about Fonda, I would think that you would find her views on feminism the only ones that mattered, instead of some obscure lesbian feminists that were in vogue in the late 1960s/early 1970s... I am a fan of Fonda's politics, and her movies were always tolerable. Julia in Post 25 you made a general point about feminism being about choice for women, posed as a question. I partly agreed with you but also disagreed since feminism is a broad church and cited the sentiments of one prominent feminist, a former head of the UN-HRC, and straight as far as I know. To the best of my knowledge gay feminists were in vogue for a good bit longer and later than the early 70's.

leadership527 -> RE: Rip-Roaring Feminist Jane Fonda Admits She's Been a Sucker for Alpha Males (5/12/2011 7:38:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania You do understand that feminism has gone through waves... I believe we are in the midst of 4th wave feminism, which isn't your grandma's feminist movement... Yup, I do understand that... although "4th wave" is highly speculative at this point. Most would say "3rd wave" for the current round of feminists. My general understanding was that 2nd wave (Carol's and mine) was about choice. 3rd wave fractured into a bajillion little splinters. Only some of those are about choice now. Many seem to be very focused on creating and/or waging a war between the genders. I cringe when I hear a woman use the word "patriarchy" in a sentence. Even in 2nd wave, this whole "choice" thing wasn't very clear. My 2nd wife had great stories about getting dirty looks and being called a "lipstick feminist" because of the way she dressed.

LaTigresse -> RE: Rip-Roaring Feminist Jane Fonda Admits She's Been a Sucker for Alpha Males (5/12/2011 8:16:19 AM)
Using fast reply.... Am I the ONLY woman that finds it ridiculously humorous that, every single time a thread is created with feminism as a topic or branch off topic........there are so bloody many men that like to think they are experts on the topic? I am no expert. I live my life, admittedly in the shadow of many women that worked very hard for me to have those rights, doing my thing my way. I expect, and get, fair treatment. I am paid well for what I do. I do not suffer in any notable way for being a woman. I don't run around waving any flags, I just live. I simply find it hysterical that men, obviously men that have a bone to pick with what they perceive as feminist concepts, are constantly postulizing about it as though it is dramatically ruining everything they hold near and dear. On end of the spectrum you have the chest thumping, natural order "I am man, all womankind should bow before my superior dickness!". On the other end you have the hardcore, man hating, lesbian, "All sex with men is eeeeeeeeeevvvvviiiiiiilllllllllll and wrong!". The smart people realize that most of us fall somewhere in the middle.

WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Rip-Roaring Feminist Jane Fonda Admits She's Been a Sucker for Alpha Males (5/12/2011 8:24:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Am I the ONLY woman that finds it ridiculously humorous that, every single time a thread is created with feminism as a topic or branch off topic........there are so bloody many men that like to think they are experts on the topic? I simply find it hysterical that men, obviously men that have a bone to pick with what they perceive as feminist concepts, are constantly postulizing about it as though it is dramatically ruining everything they hold near and dear. The smart people realize that most of us fall somewhere in the middle. So basically it seems you have a problem with "so bloody many men" having any opinion on feminism. If feminism affects society it will affect men as much or almost as much as women. That should be obvious. I welcome women having the same freedoms and rights as men. However a lot of feminist ideology appears to start from a position of hatred or at least a strong dislike of men and masculinity. If such ideology is influencing policy then it can be harmful not only to men but women as well. No woman or indeed man needs to be an expert to know that.

juliaoceania -> RE: Rip-Roaring Feminist Jane Fonda Admits She's Been a Sucker for Alpha Males (5/12/2011 8:41:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania You do understand that feminism has gone through waves... I believe we are in the midst of 4th wave feminism, which isn't your grandma's feminist movement... Yup, I do understand that... although "4th wave" is highly speculative at this point. Most would say "3rd wave" for the current round of feminists. My general understanding was that 2nd wave (Carol's and mine) was about choice. 3rd wave fractured into a bajillion little splinters. Only some of those are about choice now. Many seem to be very focused on creating and/or waging a war between the genders. I cringe when I hear a woman use the word "patriarchy" in a sentence. Even in 2nd wave, this whole "choice" thing wasn't very clear. My 2nd wife had great stories about getting dirty looks and being called a "lipstick feminist" because of the way she dressed. I am around young women all of the time, and the young women I am around study things like gender relations, etc. Anthropologists are really interested in gender equality. I am not talking male/female, I am talking transgendered people, and homosexuals being able to have complete rights. Since anthropology has always been on the forefront in the entire feminist debate (look up Sherry Ortner, for example), it would stand to reason that the young women in my discipline are reflective of where the movement is headed. What I see are women and men that are interested in the post-women's equal rights debates (as far as this country) and are really interested in furthering legal equality for all. Women my son's age take their equality as a given... these women are the future of our socio-cultural world, if you ask me. It is common to remain stuck in time when discussing things like "feminism", but the world is a dynamic place. If you haven't noticed, NOW, and groups of that sort, are not making a lot of headway with the younger generation. Women often see older feminist as a new sort of patriarchy, telling them what they should want, what they should do, how they should do it, instead of allowing them to live their lives in a way that will lead to personal satisfaction. There is much angst amongst older feminist for the lack of appreciation for their struggles.... Many feminists have also grown with these younger women, seeing the challenges have changed and in order to remain relevant, the movement has to change. I did not used to see myself as a feminist because I had a static view based upon my mother's bra burning generation. I no longer am trapped in the past, I see that feminism at its best is an expression that says people should be treated with equanimity no matter their gender, sexual orientation, age, or race....after all I have a son I love very much, and I want him to have options too, just as I want young women to have them... If you read Jane Fonda, she really doesn't hate men.... in fact she has spent her entire life trying to please them (I really can identify with that)

juliaoceania -> RE: Rip-Roaring Feminist Jane Fonda Admits She's Been a Sucker for Alpha Males (5/12/2011 8:43:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Using fast reply.... Am I the ONLY woman that finds it ridiculously humorous that, every single time a thread is created with feminism as a topic or branch off topic........there are so bloody many men that like to think they are experts on the topic? I am no expert. I live my life, admittedly in the shadow of many women that worked very hard for me to have those rights, doing my thing my way. I expect, and get, fair treatment. I am paid well for what I do. I do not suffer in any notable way for being a woman. I don't run around waving any flags, I just live. I simply find it hysterical that men, obviously men that have a bone to pick with what they perceive as feminist concepts, are constantly postulizing about it as though it is dramatically ruining everything they hold near and dear. On end of the spectrum you have the chest thumping, natural order "I am man, all womankind should bow before my superior dickness!". On the other end you have the hardcore, man hating, lesbian, "All sex with men is eeeeeeeeeevvvvviiiiiiilllllllllll and wrong!". The smart people realize that most of us fall somewhere in the middle. Fortunately, many young men do not have the same images floating around in their heads that men our age and older do...

juliaoceania -> RE: Rip-Roaring Feminist Jane Fonda Admits She's Been a Sucker for Alpha Males (5/12/2011 9:04:16 AM)
quote: I welcome women having the same freedoms and rights as men. However a lot of feminist ideology appears to start from a position of hatred or at least a strong dislike of men and masculinity. If such ideology is influencing policy then it can be harmful not only to men but women as well. No woman or indeed man needs to be an expert to know that. You know, it isn't like women still do not have problems, many of these problems stemming from hatred of women. You seem to disregard that women are often victimized at the hands of men for no greater sin than just being women. I am not talking about CHOICE, I am talking about violence against women. I find it ironic that you will post about "man hating" as if there is no "woman hating" going on in this country. The difference between the man haters and the woman haters? Man haters tend to distance themselves from men, while the women haters tend to do things like rape and murder.... It would be a more even handed approach on your part if you were to deride women hating along with the man hating, because believe it or not, women do have cause to fear men.... a long history of abuses in this country alone.

Zonie63 -> RE: Rip-Roaring Feminist Jane Fonda Admits She's Been a Sucker for Alpha Males (5/12/2011 9:07:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Using fast reply.... Am I the ONLY woman that finds it ridiculously humorous that, every single time a thread is created with feminism as a topic or branch off topic........there are so bloody many men that like to think they are experts on the topic? I'm not so sure that they consider themselves experts. I know I'm not. But I've seen all these changes over the course of my life, too. There are a lot of women who fancy themselves as experts on "patriarchy," so it's kind of the same thing. quote: I am no expert. I live my life, admittedly in the shadow of many women that worked very hard for me to have those rights, doing my thing my way. I expect, and get, fair treatment. I am paid well for what I do. I do not suffer in any notable way for being a woman. I don't run around waving any flags, I just live. I simply find it hysterical that men, obviously men that have a bone to pick with what they perceive as feminist concepts, are constantly postulizing about it as though it is dramatically ruining everything they hold near and dear. Men have a point of view, too. If a man says "this is how I feel" or "this is how it's affected my outlook," those should be considered valid. I find it interesting that Jane Fonda and others talk about "vagina-friendly men," but don't say anything about having to be "penis-friendly women." Not that I'm expecting them to be, but I just find the one-sidedness of the issue to be rather striking. And there are some aspects of feminism I agree with, especially when it comes to equal pay for equal work and basic civil rights, so when you're right, you're right. And I'm by no means an expert in feminism. When someone mentions "third wave" or "fourth wave," I have to admit that I'm clueless as to the differences. I can only really compare decades, knowing how things were in the 1970s versus how they are today. All I can say is that when it comes to feminism, I can sympathize with the destitute women who are abandoned, working two jobs, and having to take care of kids. But when these "daddy's little princess" types who have never been deprived of anything their whole lives and who are more privileged and comfortable than 90% of the male population talk about being "oppressed," then I just have to roll my eyes. In a world on the verge of total economic collapse and world war, upper class feminism almost seems quaintly irrelevant these days. I daresay that most of the female population on the planet doesn't share a lot in common with the upper class western women who have been the staunchest supporters of feminism. Reading Jane Fonda's speech, I can't help but think "This is a person who has been living in a bubble all her life." quote: On end of the spectrum you have the chest thumping, natural order "I am man, all womankind should bow before my superior dickness!". On the other end you have the hardcore, man hating, lesbian, "All sex with men is eeeeeeeeeevvvvviiiiiiilllllllllll and wrong!". The smart people realize that most of us fall somewhere in the middle. I can accept this. I think a lot of this has been due to socializing people to go into different camps. When I was growing up, everything was about the "battle of the sexes" and "boys against the girls," so it's not too surprising that some people have taken that ball and run with it.

juliaoceania -> RE: Rip-Roaring Feminist Jane Fonda Admits She's Been a Sucker for Alpha Males (5/12/2011 9:15:39 AM)
quote: There are a lot of women who fancy themselves as experts on "patriarchy," so it's kind of the same thing. Patriarchy: is a social system in which males have the primary authority... you do not have to be a man to live in such a social system. Since we do not have a feminist social system I fail to see the analogy here. quote: And I'm by no means an expert in feminism. When someone mentions "third wave" or "fourth wave," I have to admit that I'm clueless as to the differences. I can only really compare decades, knowing how things were in the 1970s versus how they are today. All I can say is that when it comes to feminism, I can sympathize with the destitute women who are abandoned, working two jobs, and having to take care of kids. But when these "daddy's little princess" types who have never been deprived of anything their whole lives and who are more privileged and comfortable than 90% of the male population talk about being "oppressed," then I just have to roll my eyes. In a world on the verge of total economic collapse and world war, upper class feminism almost seems quaintly irrelevant these days. I daresay that most of the female population on the planet doesn't share a lot in common with the upper class western women who have been the staunchest supporters of feminism. Reading Jane Fonda's speech, I can't help but think "This is a person who has been living in a bubble all her life." You do realize that feminism isn't just about economic equality, but living life unafraid of violence. Domestic violence against women knows no socio-economic class. So those "princesses" that you roll your eyes at maybe victims of domestic violence, sexual assault, or molestation.

Zonie63 -> RE: Rip-Roaring Feminist Jane Fonda Admits She's Been a Sucker for Alpha Males (5/12/2011 9:59:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: There are a lot of women who fancy themselves as experts on "patriarchy," so it's kind of the same thing. Patriarchy: is a social system in which males have the primary authority... you do not have to be a man to live in such a social system. Since we do not have a feminist social system I fail to see the analogy here. Our social system may not be strictly defined as "feminist," but just the same, are you saying that feminism has had NO effect on society and how people view things over the past 40-50 years? Are you suggesting that men have been totally isolated and insulated from feminism and its influence over society? quote: You do realize that feminism isn't just about economic equality, but living life unafraid of violence. Domestic violence against women knows no socio-economic class. So those "princesses" that you roll your eyes at maybe victims of domestic violence, sexual assault, or molestation. Okay, that's a fair point. Of course, I'm against domestic violence, sexual assault, and molestation. But then again, I don't know of any reasonable men who have argued FOR any of those things, and they're already against the law anyway.

leadership527 -> RE: Rip-Roaring Feminist Jane Fonda Admits She's Been a Sucker for Alpha Males (5/12/2011 10:22:51 AM)
You know, I've reread your post several times and near as I can tell we are in total agreement. In simplistic terms, I am "pro choice, equal rights, and equal opportunity" and "anti stereotyping and hate". I never thought Jane Fonda hated men. I've read a fair bit about how the generations have routinely not gotten any sort of synergy going. The most recent show (not reading, TV) I saw laid the blame at the mother's feet saying they refused to adapt to the times and recognize their own wins so they became irrelevant in the eyes of their daughters. I don't know for certain whether that's right or wrong, but it sounds pretty "par for the course" in terms of parents and children in general :) By the way, I'm one of those "men" who are interested in these topics. Now that we've settled somewhere on a permanent basis I've already looked into what sorts of classes I might audit at UVic. What I'm looking for though is not a class on women's rights or roles. I'm looking for a good, overall and unbiased view on gender roles within the society. At this point, my assessment is that things are "equal enough" that it's more productive to look at the whole rather than the one broken part.

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