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RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/24/2011 7:56:57 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Ok, so you favor legislation saying that the government shall pay all reasonable medical expenses. How is that not a right?


In that the government is not obligated by the Constitution.



We already did that dance and you had to say your opinions of Constitutional jurisprudence was superior to every SCOTUS majority to ever rule on related matters. It wasn't convincing then and it won't convince anyone now.

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RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/24/2011 8:13:18 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

But, as this country has proven time and time again, a right is what the people decide it is. And most rights, including the right to vote for women, have began with the idea that it should be a right and went from there.


Every right began with an idea and went from there.

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RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/24/2011 8:22:07 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

We already did that dance and you had to say your opinions of Constitutional jurisprudence was superior to every SCOTUS majority to ever rule on related matters.


I have never stated any such thing. I do, however, have the right to disagree with any or all rulings of the Supreme Court. As it so happenes, I agree with some and disagree with others.

quote:

It wasn't convincing then and it won't convince anyone now.


Maybe it will convince some people, maybe it won't convince any. So what? The right to free speech is not contingent upon the approval of others.



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RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/24/2011 10:02:04 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

But, as this country has proven time and time again, a right is what the people decide it is. And most rights, including the right to vote for women, have began with the idea that it should be a right and went from there.


Every right began with an idea and went from there.


As such, your insistence that it isnt a "right" is your personal belief, just as it is others that it is a "right".

Is it a legal right? No, it isnt, not yet.

But a right doesnt have to be legal.

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RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/24/2011 10:09:08 AM   
submittous


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Status: offline 		In most of the modern western world reasonable health care IS seen as a right not a luxury. We aren't living in the 1700's when the Constitution was written and where health care consisted of prayer and a trip to the barbershop for surgery. In today's real life world health care requires insurance and any civilized country should make sure it's citizens have it. The fact that there are a number of Americans more concerned about the taxes they pay than basic human rights doesn't change the reality.... Access to health care in an industrialized country in the twenty first century needs to be seen as a right.

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RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/24/2011 10:22:42 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Emergency health care in the US is a right... and guaranteed by law.

Anything else is a commodity, to be bartered and bargained for.

Marc's position is that it isnt a legal right... and he is correct, it isnt.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to submittous)
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RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/24/2011 10:34:32 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Spain included health care into its consitution in 1978.

The universal health care system was adopted in Brazil in 1988 after the end of the military regime's rule. However, free health care was available many years before, in some cities, once the 27th amendment to the 1969 Constitution imposed the duty of applying 6% of their income in healthcare on the municipalities

In 1993 a reform transformed the health care system in Colombia, trying to provide a better, sustainable, health care system and to reach every Colombian citizen.

On December 1, 2006 the Mexican government created the Health Insurance for a New Generation also known as "life insurance for babies".[15][16][17]

On May 16, 2009 Mexico to Achieve Universal Health Coverage by 2011.[18]

On May 28, 2009 Mexico announced Universal Care Coverage for Pregnant Women.[19

On April 2, 2010 President Alan Garcia Perez on Friday signed a supreme ordinance approving the regulations for the framework law on the Universal Health Insurance, which seeks to provide access to quality health care for all Peruvian citizens.

n Israel, the National Health Insurance Law (or National Health Insurance Act) is the legal framework which enables and facilitates basic, compulsory universal health care. The Law was put into effect by the Knesset on January 1, 1995, and was based on recommendations put forward by a National Committee of Inquiry which examined restructuring the health care system in Israel in the late 1980s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care

The list goes on and on. Considering many of these countries are centuries older than the US, I find your comments are a bit presumptuous. We are getting there, it takes time, like it did in Mexico.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to submittous)
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RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/24/2011 11:20:53 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

As such, your insistence that it isnt a "right" is your personal belief, just as it is others that it is a "right".


I've never said otherwise. I am glad, however that you finally figured that out. Took you long enough. Now if you could just come the rest of the way and realize that mere disagreement does not automatically make someone a moral degenerate...

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RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/24/2011 11:50:54 AM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		Hey you just arent perfect Marc, I happpen to like most moral degenerates
Health care tho is one Legal  Right I will not give up without a fight
Id give up the right to bear arms or bare arms to keep healthcare as a NEED and a right.
How you can have one without the other has always been strange to me




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RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/24/2011 11:54:28 AM   
SilverMark


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Status: offline 		We are the only industrialized country without universal healthcare....amazing isn't it? All the great health care available and without a checkbook...too fucking bad!

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RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/24/2011 12:19:17 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		Dont get me started Mark:)

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RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/24/2011 12:27:06 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Hey you just arent perfect Marc, I happpen to like most moral degenerates


I know that I am not perfect... nor have I ever claimed to be. Sure, I like moral degenerates in the humorous sense too... cheap, easy sluts rank amongst my favorite people... as long as they promptly leave when I'm finnished.

What I don't like is libel being used in lieu of reasoned debate. What I don't like is the presumption that agreeing with posistion A automatically means that a person also holds posistions B, C, and D (usually a sure sign of narrow minded and bigoted thinking). What I don't like is being expected to play along with the use of euphemisms just so other people can give themselves an ego stroke off.


quote:

Health care tho is one Legal Right I will not give up without a fight


How far are you willing to take that fight? (just curious)


quote:

Id give up the right to bear arms or bare arms to keep healthcare as a NEED and a right.


No arms (bare or otherwise) will make it a little difficult to fight for your other rights, don't you think?


quote:

How you can have one without the other has always been strange to me


Well, it's not to me. To reiterate: when I first posted on this thread, my thoughts had nothing to do with whether a societal health care benefit was a good idea or not... only on the fact that far too people hide behind the word right when they don't think they're getting their way, believing that it absolves them from having to face practical reality (and, as a nice bonus, giving them a stamp of moral approval).



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RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/24/2011 12:39:14 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Funny Ive protested without guns before
Dont need bloody guns to make a protest thats merrycan thinking.
If it ever comes? ill decide then but yes, im  almost 50 and never had to worry about having the right taken away
changed, yes, streamlined yes, innefficient, yes, but still there, not stripped away.
Why are you so concerned about losing something when you havent even got it???
In the two countries I love and live, it is a right, its not getting my own way, it is a fact of life.
thats the way it is, wanting that for other people is  wrong? why?
I dont not like your stand on healthcare but , Im not going to dislike you because of it. Im not that bloody shallow or dumb.




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RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/24/2011 1:01:42 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Funny Ive protested without guns before


So you draw the line at killing people. Okay.

quote:

Dont need bloody guns to make a protest thats merrycan thinking.


I've never met a can (merry or otherwise) that did any thinking. I have, however met plenty of Americans who think differently than your statement proclaims.


quote:

If it ever comes? ill decide then but yes, im almost 50 and never had to worry about having the right taken away
changed, yes, streamlined yes, innefficient, yes, but still there, not stripped away.


How can a right be changed?


quote:

Why are you so concerned about losing something when you havent even got it???


I'm not. I'm concerned that far to many people proclaim something to be a right and then walk away, thinking that they've actually acomplished something good when in fact they have accomplished nothing at all. I hear people proclaim decent housing to be a right but how many of them pick up a hammer and join Habitat for Humanity?

quote:

In the two countries I love and live, it is a right, its not getting my own way, it is a fact of life.
thats the way it is, wanting that for other people is wrong? why?


I never said that wanting it for other people is wrong. What I think is wrong is putting the burden of what you want on other people by proclaiming it a right. There is a certain selfishness about it that just irks me.

quote:

I dont not like your stand on healthcare

You do not like my stand that we as a society should work toward health care for everybody? Why?

quote:

but , Im not going to dislike you because of it. Im not that bloody shallow or dumb.


I've made no such accusation against you (if it appeared that way my apologies for not being clearer). Truth be told it was Tazzy's rather insulting crack about taking blood money that has gotten under my skin and continues to whenever I come back to this thread. A couple of times I thought it was all over but (Warning: lame Al Pacino impersonation coming up) everytime I think I'm out... THEY DRAG ME BACK IN!







< Message edited by Marc2b -- 5/24/2011 1:02:50 PM >

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RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/24/2011 1:05:35 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: submittous

In most of the modern western world reasonable health care IS seen as a right not a luxury. We aren't living in the 1700's when the Constitution was written and where health care consisted of prayer and a trip to the barbershop for surgery. In today's real life world health care requires insurance and any civilized country should make sure it's citizens have it. The fact that there are a number of Americans more concerned about the taxes they pay than basic human rights doesn't change the reality.... Access to health care in an industrialized country in the twenty first century needs to be seen as a right.


It isnt seen as a a "luxury" either. There is a huge chasm between " a right" and "a luxury".

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RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/24/2011 1:15:54 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
No arms (bare or otherwise) will make it a little difficult to fight for your other rights, don't you think?

Not wishing to start an unrelated fight in a thread already full of squabbling, but...

Precisely which rights have Americans defended (or demanded from their government) at gunpoint since they revolted against George III? The only instance I can think of is the Panthers insisting that they were entitled to go about tooled up in the early '70s, and apparently that doesn't count as they were all locked up.

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RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/24/2011 1:42:18 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Not wishing to start an unrelated fight in a thread already full of squabbling, but...

Precisely which rights have Americans defended (or demanded from their government) at gunpoint since they revolted against George III? The only instance I can think of is the Panthers insisting that they were entitled to go about tooled up in the early '70s, and apparently that doesn't count as they were all locked up.


I was merely trying to ascertain how much fell under the word "fight."

A fight for one's rights doesn't mean only one's own government... but to answer your question, there were some armed slave insurrections.



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RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/24/2011 1:46:29 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

As such, your insistence that it isnt a "right" is your personal belief, just as it is others that it is a "right".


I've never said otherwise. I am glad, however that you finally figured that out. Took you long enough. Now if you could just come the rest of the way and realize that mere disagreement does not automatically make someone a moral degenerate...


Whoa, when did I ever call you a moral degenerate.

Marc, stick to your own opinions and quit trying to put words into other peoples' texts.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 298
RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/24/2011 1:51:34 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

've made no such accusation against you (if it appeared that way my apologies for not being clearer). Truth be told it was Tazzy's rather insulting crack about taking blood money that has gotten under my skin and continues to whenever I come back to this thread. A couple of times I thought it was all over but (Warning: lame Al Pacino impersonation coming up) everytime I think I'm out... THEY DRAG ME BACK IN!


It is blood money when a person dies just to make sure stock holders get a check.

It is blood money when a kid is denied an operation because he had a cold 6 months ago.

It is blood money when a woman or man develops cancer and they are suddenly dropped.

It is blood money when someone cant get the medication they need to survive in a country that allows a 10 dollar shot to stop pre-term labor be reclassified and is now 1500 a shot.

This is what the "market" supports. Profits. And its something you are embracing.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 299
RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing... - 5/24/2011 1:56:50 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Whoa, when did I ever call you a moral degenerate.


When you accused me of taking blood money.


quote:

Marc, stick to your own opinions


If I did that I would never learn anything.

quote:

and quit trying to put words into other peoples' texts.


Merely my interpetation. I mean, people who take blood money aren't usualy regarded as pargons of virtue.



_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

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Profile   Post #: 300
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