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When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to your ... - 5/12/2006 8:17:44 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		I know that this thread could be my own public suicide but I hope that I can convey my thoughts here in such a way that they will be understood to come from a perspective that is not one of disrespect.

I was reading another thread here...the "Man" thread...and in thinking of what my perception of what a Man is, it brought me to a subject that I have discussed a multitude of times with others in this lifestyle. I have very strong beliefs of how I perceive the natural order of things to be. I am certain that those beliefs are a cumulation of the environment in which I was raised and what I came to value over the course of my life. I am also sure that my perceptions have a great deal to do with how I view my submission.

I see men as having unique strengths. I am not saying that they are any more valuable as human beings than women...but that there are some areas that I believe they are stronger that sets them apart....just as we women have areas in which we exceed their capabilities. It is when we combine that we reach a harmonious state wherein our differences intermingle to compliment each other and fill the voids of the other...forming a "whole" if you will.

Now, each person, male and female, without the other can indeed live alone and function perfectly well in life. They don't need the other to survive and many even choose to live their lives in this manner. In MY opinion, relationships work out best when the parties involved WANT all of the compliments that having a partner will bring to their existence as opposed to feeling as though they NEED someone in their life for basic survival. To me that type of need is indicative of a person who is not functioning on a healthy level.   

Now, this is where things get touchy for me. I find that I have a hard time understanding some of the dynamics involved in this lifestyle....not that I have a lack of respect for them....or a lack of acceptance of them....but that I have a hard time relating to them as they are just in such direct contradiction to the picture in my head of how things need to be for me.

For me, I have the hardest time relating to the concepts of female Dommes and male submissives. These roles are in such direct contradiction to my own personal "natural order of things" that contemplating them is a bit like seeing water run uphill. It just screws up my head. Now don't get me wrong, I am not a closed minded person and I can and do appreciate and have complete respect for those who live their lives within those roles. I have many dear friends who fit into both of those categories and have had countless long and in depth conversations with them relating to my inability to fully understand and I don't think that any of them have ever been offended by my differing view. I have always been very honest about my feelings with them, as they have been with me, and in many ways that honesty has strengthed the bonds of our friendships. It is just that for me I can not ever view another woman as being Dominant or superior to me...nor could I ever view a man as being submissive to me.

In speaking with other submissives I have found that many who are in traditional male Dominant/female submissive relationships share this same view....although not many would publicly admit such a view within a lifestyle community.

So for you...are there dynamics that you encounter within this lifestyle that you just can't personally relate to? If so, how do you maintain friendships with others of opposing roles? Do you express your views to them....or just keep silent or pretend you really understand?



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RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to y... - 5/12/2006 8:39:44 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
So for you...are there dynamics that you encounter within this lifestyle that you just can't personally relate to? If so, how do you maintain friendships with others of opposing roles? Do you express your views to them....or just keep silent or pretend you really understand?

I don't get people who don't get switches or polyamory :)  It seems so obvious to me, so NATURAL for people to explore and be comfortable in all orientations, that for people to simply say "That's not right" "You are wrong about yourself" and things like that just boggle me.

And I think that's ok, I think it's OK and fine that you have ideals about what's right and wrong, and that you don't "get" male subs or female doms.  The fact is that MOST of the people in Ds and Ms look down on people who play casually, or who have open relationships- and most of the time it's just lip service when they say "Well, we're all just doing what works for us." 

But lip service is fine for me, since I KNOW that's what it is, and at least upholds the principle.  I can respect someone who at least attempts to understand that others choices might be inconceiveable, but still respected.

The key isn't what you choose- the key is whether you give others the respect of their own choices. 

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RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to y... - 5/12/2006 8:40:59 AM   
Halcyone


Posts: 93
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline 		Strangely, I can relate to female dominants and male submissives. A man being submissive to me is an uncomfortable thought but I can see how it is fulfilling for both sides of that equation.

The dynamic that I can't get my mind around is that of the supremecist, be they male or female. Those who believe that the natural order of things is one gender superior, one inferior. While I can understand that being the order of things with one couple, it goes against everything I feel is right when someone insists that this is the way it should be or even is for everyone. It seems so arrogant to me, so (please forgive me for the judgemental nature of this next descriptor) wrong.

I've only encountered a few who believe this way is true, but our conversations were generally short-lived. Either I was ignored or expelled for disagreeing, or I had to leave before my disgust with their mindset became too obvious. I'm not proud of not being able to discuss this calmly and rationally with them (all of the reasons why they're wrong! ) but it's just beyond me.

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RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to y... - 5/12/2006 8:50:01 AM   
becca333


Posts: 1050
Joined: 4/11/2006
Status: offline 		I agree, mistoferin, to me it seems so natural that men are Doms and women are subs, it's programmed into us and is a genetic imperative. 

But I know that there's PLENTY of other possibilities, and good luck to them all - the world would be boring if we were all the same.

I'm a sub, totally and blissfully so.  But sometimes... just sometimes... I wonder what it'd be like to be a Domme.  It'd be fun to snap that whip and give orders, and wield that power... although I'm afraid of what'd come out of the deep dark corners of my psyche if I tried it.

But who knows? The world is large, life is long, and the road has many turnings. What seems natural to me at this time could get stale, what seems alien to me right now could become a world of delight in the future.


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RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to y... - 5/12/2006 9:00:59 AM   
twicehappy


Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Oh yeah, there are quite a few lifestyle kinks, and general lifestyle views that i swear as long as i live i will not understand. Things that no matter how hard i try to wrap my head around i cannot.

For the most part i try to be respectful of everybodys kink, if they insist on explaining it to me over and over i generally tell them rather bluntly, no thanks.

I know exactly what you mean on the male/female dominant thing. I always belonged to a man, period. Though i had friends who were domme, they just did not interest me.

Coming to belong to Scooter we both knew before i got here i was his. Jewel was an unanswered question, both were aware i never felt submissive to a female and that it was a very real possibility i would not accept her this way. But it was very easy and came quite naturally. So you never know.

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RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to y... - 5/12/2006 9:08:01 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

So for you...are there dynamics that you encounter within this lifestyle that you just can't personally relate to? If so, how do you maintain friendships with others of opposing roles? Do you express your views to them....or just keep silent or pretend you really understand?



You want complete honesty here?

Ok.

I frankly do not get the need for male dominant/female submissive in BDSM. That's pretty much the traditional model of het relationships so I don't see how it is different from vanilla arrangements.

EXCEPT for consent. Vanilla relationships are usually just fallen into, we follow the models around us. When two people really look at themselves and chose to follow that tradition not because its tradition but because it is right for them as individuals and a team, then I see that it is different from traditional vanilla.

Course I feel the same way about women taking a husband's last name just because its supposed to be that way. I have no problem with those of my friends who have consciously thought about it and made their choice on the matter of surnames.

Likewise all of those I've known in meatlife whom I respect who are the male dominant/female submissive variety have carefully chosen that role and do not expect anyone else to follow it. I also note that most of those women I know in these chosen role seem stronger than those just following the traditional models. They just seem that way to me, not a claim of any objective measurement.

On the "natural" side of the question, to me the female because she is the mother of humanity is naturally held in higher esteem than the male who can do his bit in intercourse and go on his merry way. I can't imagine giving a child born from a female body the name from a male who may or may not be a biological parent after all. I think the only natural human relationship is that between mother and child -- natural does not always been best or healthy unfortunately.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 5/12/2006 9:14:05 AM >

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RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to y... - 5/12/2006 9:08:55 AM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		What I really don't get are the no limit slaves.  Yes, I know that's in another thread and I don't mean to bring it here, but when I am sceptical of them, I get all kinds of grief.  I mean, come on!  Everyone has some limit.  The key is to find the One(s) you are compatible with.  Then the whoel "no limit" thing is a moot point. 

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RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to y... - 5/12/2006 9:33:19 AM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline
quote:


In speaking with other submissives I have found that many who are in traditional male Dominant/female submissive relationships share this same view....although not many would publicly admit such a view within a lifestyle community.


<stands up and admits it>  Me too!!

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RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to y... - 5/12/2006 9:43:30 AM   
NINASHARP


Posts: 295
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: NJ/NYC
Status: offline 		I once did a thesis on integrating women in a male dominant workforce, I.E., woman who became police officers, fireman or construction workers. So your post stood out to me. 

Of course there are many women who are wired to do such jobs as those mentioned above. Physically and mentally.  But we are evolving in today's world, and woman are as strong, or even stronger then some men.

Yes, there is also a reversal of opportunities for men in a woman workforce as well, such as nursing and cosmetology professions.  At one time teachers were primarily men, and still through the decades of history, take Catherine the Great, for instance, women run countries and are Queens of their Throne.  Things have changed quite a bit in society. Thank goodness, for our rights are greater and given the opportunity, we can do anything a man can do, and vise versa.

I understand your views about men and masculinity, and the role a woman plays as submissive. Submissive as obeying the male, while caring for the home, child bearing, and nurturing the man, just because as he provides the economic stability and protection.

Yet the idea is too dark aged for me, and not up to the technology advances made in times of  today's modern world. Women can now choose to use birth control and not have children or they can decide how many they can have. Women can attain high education in prestigious schools, which was once thought a no no. They can join the military, too. Women also can earn more than men in some fields. They can be great leaders in politics, as well as in business.  The idea that women stay barefoot and pregnant, in a chauvinistic man's world is no longer the case. I don't mean to take what you said out of context, but there is so much substances to a women that they can still be a wife and mother, and also the main bread winner. My question to you regarding the natural order of things, men being the superior and women under them, perhaps in religious countries where the women are not allowed to show their face behind a vale, this is true, but in the modern time and in America, is it still the natural order of things in the world today?

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RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to y... - 5/12/2006 9:51:30 AM   
KittenWithaTwist


Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		I agree with LA. I don't get people who don't get switching, because I switch. I can understand the "natural order" feelings that you have, and I understand why you think they're the "right" way to live, but I don't agree with them or feel that they're right. After all, there are many people who have only same sex partners and feel "whole", as you said, with that same sex partner. I certainly don't feel "whole" with my male hetero partner, only. I definitely feel holes in my "completion" without a female bisexual or homosexual partner.

I also don't feel superior or inferior to anyone based on their sex alone. I can't relate to that at all.

So, in regards to your question: Yes, there are some things I can't relate to. I can't relate to Female Superiority play or Male Superiority play. I understand it, but I don't identify with it at all. I don't relate to the whole "natural order" thing either. I understand it, but I don't realte.

Still, I can be friends with anybody. Just because I can't maintain a romantic relationship with them doesn't mean we can't be friends. It may sound corny, but there are other things to friendships, I guess, than whether I relate to their view of the world on a romantic or intimate level. I still express my views, and they express theirs. I don't stay silent (it's not in my genetic makeup) and I won't lie (or "pretend").

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RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to y... - 5/12/2006 10:25:47 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		I offer this: perhaps it IS natural and genetic disposition...for those who are drawn to it. It's natural from me to have auburn hair and green eyes. I was born this way. While I don't discount the nurture side of anything, there is something to be said about the genetic side. There's proof that being gay and lesbian is genetic, for example. A lot of people have a problem with that since a same sex couple can't reproduce naturally. But then, a lot of people mistake reproductive sex for love. Just 'cause you don't understand it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or there isn't another valid way. I don't totally understand how multi-ped animals and insects walk...but that sure doesn't stop them from doing it or for it being natural for them.

Anyway, my point is this: it IS natural for you, and thus it's easy for you to understand. However, other things are natural for other people. Natural Order doesn't have to be limited to one road. It can be a braid of several.

Fire


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RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to y... - 5/12/2006 10:30:30 AM   
Slipstreme


Posts: 817
Joined: 1/1/2006
Status: offline 		I can't understand supremacy at all. I see the world as a multitude of exceptions to the rule, not simply a rule. Anytime someone tries to define what is right and natural in life, something will come along and defy that. There never is one way to go about things, otherwise there would not be any exceptions.

I also have a hard time understanding why there are some people who will only Top or only bottom, sexually or in pain play (aside from the Top not liking pain). Seems too limiting. I also can't understand why people assume that others who do both have to be switches or have to be both dominant and submissive. I am a sadomasochistic Dominant. It took me understanding that masochism is separate from submission to realize that. However, I understand switching and have no problem with switches who can be both.

Cuckoldry is one thing I don't think I will ever understand. I believe that everyone should be able to find release, especially from the partner they have decided to devote themselves to. However, for those whom this is their kink, I've got no problem with that. I just don't understand it.

On a similar line, promiscuious or polyamorous Dominants who expect their submissive/slave to be sexually loyal to them only. I know D/s isn't supposed to be fair, but it is one restriction I don't think I could give a submissive of mine. If I'm off having fun with others, why not they? Call me lax, but I can't wrap my head around that notion. However I do understand the submissive/slave who finds that although they may be allowed to have multiple partners, they can't take advantage of that because they have devoted themselves to their Dom/Master. My friend is this way with her Master.



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RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to y... - 5/12/2006 10:45:34 AM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: becca333
I agree, mistoferin, to me it seems so natural that men are Doms and women are subs, it's programmed into us and is a genetic imperative. 


With respect, there are plenty of scientists who would disagree with that statement.  Some people interpret the biological dictates that can be factually observed in Homo sapiens males through a cultural filter that fits into the "male dominant/female submissive" relationship model.  But a pure-fact observation of the behavioral impulses that the dictates of evolution have hardwired in males of many species including our own does not automatically lend itself to any specific culture.  It can fact be equally well applied to a female dominant model to "prove" that femdom is The One True Way Of Things and the Natural Order.

Many feminist scholars have made detailed analyses of male biological imperatives, using these same scientific facts to support the female dominant model.  If you're interested in learning about them to get a perspective on "the other side", it's not difficult to find.  Some, obviously, are better than others.  There's rhetoric on both sides that is just silly, as well as some fairly well thought out arguments. 

Science is science and fact is fact.  How you experience and interpret those facts on an emotional level is heavily influenced by cultural, psychological and sociological factors.  My personal take, possibly since I do work in a science field, is that I can clearly separate the facts from the cultural and personal filters and observe those filters dispassionately, like an anthropologist.   I don't see any of the known facts of physical and behavioral dimorphism in Homo sapiens as an automatic foundation for either a male dominant or female dominant relationship model in all circumstances.  There are excellent arguments and workable setups for both interpretations.  What it comes down to is culture and individual psychology.  Eg, what works for the individuals in the relationship.

My leather family, the BDSM community that I am a part of, encompasses people of many different sexual and BDSM orientations.  Gay leather daddies, lesbian bois, hetero femdoms, male dominants, transgenders who bottom to other bisexual switches on alternate Tuesdays.  If you're doing it safely with other consenting adults, it's cool by me.  I would not be so arrogant as to say that my personal sexual and kink orientation is the only right way to be.  The world is much bigger and more diverse than that, and it makes me joyful to be able to see and celebrate this diversity. 



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RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to y... - 5/12/2006 11:10:19 AM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

So for you...are there dynamics that you encounter within this lifestyle that you just can't personally relate to? If so, how do you maintain friendships with others of opposing roles? Do you express your views to them....or just keep silent or pretend you really understand?


"I don't understand" is very different from "this is wrong."  Taking it out of the highly charged sexual realm, I have friends who are fanatic football fans, are deeply religious, are vegetarians, and this list could go on and on.

This doesn't stop me from associating with them in other bailiwicks and respecting their judgement in areas where I don't consider them to be a bit "touched."

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RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to y... - 5/12/2006 11:33:08 AM   
Proprietrix


Posts: 756
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Ohio/West Virginia
Status: offline
There are definitely some ways and customs and beliefs in this lifestyle I totally can't grasp. And some that maybe I managed to grasp but don't agree with. I can be friends with both.

What I cannot do, is have a friendship with someone whose beliefs to me are unethical or immoral. There are some belief systems in this lifestyle that I really just have no tolerance for. Thos who practice those beliefs aren't people I would want to become friends with.

But I do have friends whom I can state to "Your dynamics are in opposition to my view of the natural order of things." Most of those friends aren't even in the lifestyle and where our views differ is usually along the lines of religion.

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IMO, IMHO, YMMV, AFAIK, to me, I see it as, from my perspective, it's been my experience, I only speak for myself, (and all other disclaimers here).

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RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to y... - 5/12/2006 11:37:27 AM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline 		Excellent analogy, John. 

I happen to love raw fish.  There's people who really don't "get" this culinary appetite.  They think that raw fish is bait, and eating bait is not something they can understand wanting to do.   As long as they don't try to tell me that I can't eat sushi, or picket my favorite sushi restaurants, they're entitled to their personal preferences.

Kink goes likewise.  Most people don't "get" kink at all, and they feel that anybody hitting or dominating anybody in a relationship is just plain wrong.  As long as they leave me and mine alone to do what we like to do best, I don't care how they run their own personal lives. 

The one concern I do have is that it behooves us as a community to support one another rather than emphasize our differences.  We have a common interest in BDSM, and a belief that consenting adults have the right to be dominant or submissive.  We have knowledge to share and mutual support to offer.  We can stand together to make this world a better and safer place for all of us in this lifestyle. 

Or we can get all caught up in arguing amongst ourselves about the details of who does what and with which and to whom, and refuse to support or share with people who don't do things just our way.  In the meantime, more restrictive laws get passed, less safety information gets shared between the divided groups, and more bullshit and antagonism gets thrown around. 

I don't care who holds the whip in your personal relationship.  I don't care whether you're gay or straight, top or bottom, dom or sub.  I firmly believe that the BDSM community is bigger than those details, and it is better for us to stick together when the outside world is trying to stick it to us. 



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RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to y... - 5/12/2006 11:52:00 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I think it is an individual and personal situation far more than a gender role. I fought the societal role I grew up trying to fit into and was miserable, always feeling different until I found D's. In this, I have learned that the feelings and instincts I was always trying to surpress are okay, more than okay, they are WONDERFUL! I do not have to find a man that I can try to submit to, constantly being disappointed with and fighting the guilt of feeling there is something wrong with ME for finding things wrong with him.  I always thought the women that were submissive to men were the weak ones. Now, I get it! A submissive/slave is not weak, not at all. Different from me, yes, very much so. For me, the Male Dom/female submissive is much more boring and vanilla....what I have seen my whole life and fought against. However now, knowing what I know, I will not critisize any woman that choses this path as I did in the past. It is just different than mine.

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RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to y... - 5/12/2006 1:10:32 PM   
ArchangelMichael


Posts: 243
Joined: 8/21/2004
From: New Orleans, LA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist

I agree with LA. I don't get people who don't get switching, because I switch. I can understand the "natural order" feelings that you have, and I understand why you think they're the "right" way to live, but I don't agree with them or feel that they're right. After all, there are many people who have only same sex partners and feel "whole", as you said, with that same sex partner. I certainly don't feel "whole" with my male hetero partner, only. I definitely feel holes in my "completion" without a female bisexual or homosexual partner.

I also don't feel superior or inferior to anyone based on their sex alone. I can't relate to that at all.

So, in regards to your question: Yes, there are some things I can't relate to. I can't relate to Female Superiority play or Male Superiority play. I understand it, but I don't identify with it at all. I don't relate to the whole "natural order" thing either. I understand it, but I don't realte.

Still, I can be friends with anybody. Just because I can't maintain a romantic relationship with them doesn't mean we can't be friends. It may sound corny, but there are other things to friendships, I guess, than whether I relate to their view of the world on a romantic or intimate level. I still express my views, and they express theirs. I don't stay silent (it's not in my genetic makeup) and I won't lie (or "pretend").


You just hit on the two biggest things for me. Since I'm also a switch, I don't undestand how people can't understand switches. I have the desire for both roles and all too often I feel like it's some curse I'm afflicted with. It's like I can't be Dom enough for the subs and I can't be sub enough for the Doms.

The other aspect of the lifestle that bothers me is female supremacy. I may have my submissive side, but I could never serve a woman who thinks she's better than me just because she's female. I believe in equality between the sexes, but also in the choice to be able to dominate or submit according to your personal desires. I want to serve a woman who loves men and who would love me for the man I am, not because she thinks I'm some sort of worm she can crush under her heel. It's just as important for the dominant in the relationship to respect the submissive as a person as it is for the submissive to respect the Dominant. This doesn't mean that I don't understand humilation and objectification. I'm into those things. But whether as Dom or sub, I still recognize the object of such as a worthy human being first and foremost who has a desire to be treated as an object or animal.


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RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to y... - 5/12/2006 1:16:53 PM   
ArchangelMichael


Posts: 243
Joined: 8/21/2004
From: New Orleans, LA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

"I don't understand" is very different from "this is wrong."  Taking it out of the highly charged sexual realm, I have friends who are fanatic football fans, are deeply religious, are vegetarians, and this list could go on and on.

This doesn't stop me from associating with them in other bailiwicks and respecting their judgement in areas where I don't consider them to be a bit "touched."


I have to say that I certainly don't understand fanatic football fans. And I've cetainly run into my fair share of them since I've been living in Baton Rouge. LSU fans are some the most fanatic I've seen. But yeah, to each his own. I don't go to the games and as long as they're not hurting anyone, it's okay.


_____________________________

"Open up your mind; Let your fantasies unwind." -The Phantom, Phantom of the Opera

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -Toulouse-Lautrec, Moulin Rouge

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: When other roles/dynamics are in contradiction to y... - 5/12/2006 1:27:39 PM   
theRose4U


Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

see men as having unique strengths. I am not saying that they are any more valuable as human beings than women...but that there are some areas that I believe they are stronger that sets them apart....just as we women have areas in which we exceed their capabilities. It is when we combine that we reach a harmonious state wherein our differences intermingle to compliment each other and fill the voids of the other...forming a "whole" if you will.

Now, each person, male and female, without the other can indeed live alone and function perfectly well in life. They don't need the other to survive and many even choose to live their lives in this manner. In MY opinion, relationships work out best when the parties involved WANT all of the compliments that having a partner will bring to their existence as opposed to feeling as though they NEED someone in their life for basic survival. To me that type of need is indicative of a person who is not functioning on a healthy level.   


I guess from my point of view I don't understand why the idea of a male slave is confusing to you? I would explain relationships almost verbatum how you did. With one flip.
Take the example of mowing the lawn. A female sub would watch her master mowing the lawn and think "he's so masculine and dreamy with the sweat glistening on his body, let me make some cold lemonade to serve him."
A Domme would watch her male sub doing the exact same thing and maybe have some of the exact same feelings. With one difference...the male sub likely made and laid out the lemonade in advance of doing the lawn as well as set up a chair for his mistress to admire him doing manly things.
She is sitting there thinking that she's fortunate to have a man so devoted to his service to her;  you're thinking how lucky you are to have such a strong master...exact same coin just different points of view of the exact same situation.

< Message edited by theRose4U -- 5/12/2006 1:40:19 PM >

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 20
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