America: The Grim Truth (Full Version)

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Hippiekinkster -> America: The Grim Truth (5/20/2011 6:26:34 PM)

An essay by an expat:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25166.htm

And I cannot disagree. I've been to 16 different countries, and the best quality of life I have seen is Germany.


And this from Noam Chomsky, which somebody posted in the comments section:

"NOAM CHOMSKY
Advice to kids (of all ages) who 'don't like what's going on and want to do something about it'.

DK: On that note, I'm also looking to think ahead with what's in the future for the labor movement and the IWW. More generally, if you had one piece of advice to offer future generations of Wobblies—especially in light of the tough financial times that we are facing and will probably continue to face for a long time in the Western world—what would it be?

NC: Well, I get a lot of letters from people. When I go home tonight I'll have 15 letters today from mostly young kids who don't like what's going on and want to do something about it, and [they ask me] if I can give them some advice as to what they should do, or can I tell them what to read or something. It doesn't work like that. I mean, everything depends very much on who you are, what your values are, what your commitments are, what circumstances you live in and what options you're willing to undertake, and that determines what you ought to be doing. There are some very general ideas that people can keep in mind; they're kind of truisms. It's only worth mentioning them because they're always denied.

First of all, don't believe anything you hear from power systems. So if Obama or the boss or the newspapers or anyone else tells you they're doing this, that, or the other thing, dismiss it or assume the opposite is true, which it often is. You have to rely on yourself and your associates—gifts don't come from above; you're going to win them, or you won't have them, and you win by struggle, and that requires understanding and serious analysis of the options and the circumstances, and then you can do a lot. So take right now, for example, there is a right-wing populist uprising. It's very common, even on the left, to just ridicule them, but that's not the right reaction. If you look at those people and listen to them on talk radio, these are people with real grievances. I listen to talk radio a lot and it's kind of interesting. If you can sort of suspend your knowledge of the world and just enter into the world of the people who are calling in, you can understand them. I've never seen a study, but my sense is that these are people who feel really aggrieved. These people think, "I've done everything right all my life, I'm a god-fearing Christian, I'm white, I'm male, I've worked hard, and I carry a gun. I do everything I'm supposed to do. And I'm getting shafted." And in fact they are getting shafted. For 30 years their wages have stagnated or declined, the social conditions have worsened, the children are going crazy, there are no schools, there's nothing, so somebody must be doing something to them, and they want to know who it is. Well Rush Limbaugh has answered - it's the rich liberals who own the banks and run the government, and of course run the media, and they don't care about you—they just want to give everything away to illegal immigrants and gays and communists and so on.

Well, you know, the reaction we should be having to them is not ridicule, but rather self-criticism. Why aren't we organizing them? I mean, we are the ones that ought to be organizing them, not Rush Limbaugh. There are historical analogs, which are not exact, of course, but are close enough to be worrisome. This is a whiff of early Nazi Germany. Hitler was appealing to groups with similar grievances, and giving them crazy answers, but at least they were answers; these groups weren't getting them anywhere else. It was the Jews and the Bolsheviks [that were the problem].

I mean, the liberal democrats aren't going to tell the average American, "Yeah, you're being shafted because of the policies that we've established over the years that we're maintaining now." That's not going to be an answer. And they're not getting answers from the left. So, there's an internal coherence and logic to what they get from Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and the rest of these guys. And they sound very convincing, they're very self-confident, and they have an answer to everything—a crazy answer, but it's an answer. And it's our fault if that goes on. So one thing to be done is don't ridicule these people, join them, and talk about their real grievances and give them a sensible answer, like, "Take over your factories."

From Worker Occupations And The Future Of Radical Labor - An Interview With Noam Chomsky - By Noam Chomsky and Diane Krauthamer - November 20, 2009 -http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/23178#13714 "




TheHeretic -> RE: America: The Grim Truth (5/20/2011 6:31:53 PM)

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.




juliaoceania -> RE: America: The Grim Truth (5/20/2011 6:46:25 PM)

quote:

Well, you know, the reaction we should be having to them is not ridicule, but rather self-criticism. Why aren't we organizing them? I mean, we are the ones that ought to be organizing them, not Rush Limbaugh. There are historical analogs, which are not exact, of course, but are close enough to be worrisome. This is a whiff of early Nazi Germany. Hitler was appealing to groups with similar grievances, and giving them crazy answers, but at least they were answers; these groups weren't getting them anywhere else. It was the Jews and the Bolsheviks [that were the problem].


The reason why we cannot organize people who listen to Rush and friends, they do not want to hear what we have to say. If you tell them that it is the system, the rich capitalists, it is a structural problem, those are some tough pills to swallow. It takes thought instead of reaction to change such a system, and reaction is always so much easier and it takes little mental effort. The answers are black and white, and it removes the complexity of the situation.


I do agree with much of what Noam Chomsky says, especially his participant observation by listening to the radio, attempting to suspend his own point of view to see from the eyes of those with another (he is an anthropologist after all[;)]), but the fact remains that if the angry white men of America do not want to hear anything from me, they are not going to listen. Often hearing a woman say anything contrary to what they think is like a red flag to a bull.... of course it was the feminist who brainwashed me, or it was Clinton, or I am a soccermom, wtf do I know?

I remember when I was doing my undergrad and we had these presentations in my ethnic identities class.... this one kid chose to do his on "reverse racism and discrimination"... luckily he went over time and there was no room for questions, because it rather irritated me...

I talked to the professor after class and asked him how he could allow that drivel to continue as long as he did, why the hell did he make us sit through it one second longer than we had to, seeing that he was over his time and he had cut other people off that had academically valid work.... he said to me (and I will never forget this)"Julia, he has anger. Perhaps if he felt listened to he would be more open to the material we cover in this class. If I cut him off, or denigrated him, or failed him, I would only be playing into that victim dialog he has playing in his head... And he is a victim. He is a victim of a system that pits people against each other for crumbs, and when one person doesn;t get a crumb, they can blame 'those women' or 'those black people'. He has had opportunities taken from him for what he believes is his skin color. He doesn't challenge this because it gives him a direction to point his anger. Instead of asking 'why aren't there more opportunities for all of us', he is asking 'how can I stop those people from taking what's mine'"

Like I said, it did make an impact on me, but unfortunately it hasn't led to me being able to change hearts and minds as a result.

BTW Noam Chomsky is my hero.... seriously, possibly the most brilliant mind of this era.




juliaoceania -> RE: America: The Grim Truth (5/20/2011 6:53:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.



Well ain't that special, someone who thinks he can dictate what other people think about and what they talk about... so "American"[8|]




Real0ne -> RE: America: The Grim Truth (5/20/2011 6:55:23 PM)

I always liked chomski overall.  Something scared the hell out of him after he made a few comments about 911 and he like a light switch become very careful in what he said.

Noam Chomsky, on disillusionment


If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged.

Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media.

The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all the people.

The United States is unusual among the industrial democracies in the rigidity of the system of ideological control - "indoctrination," we might say - exercised through the mass media.

Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever

If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.

States are not moral agents, people are, and can impose moral standards on powerful institutions.



Here is more from chomski with that regard.




Real0ne -> RE: America: The Grim Truth (5/20/2011 7:07:49 PM)

the forward motion of a car for instance is the obvious and observant outward quality thats first strikes the senses.  However there is the pistons and the crank and tranny and gas that is all required to power that observable forward motion.

That is to say that anger may have been the motivation for his paper but the underlying causes go typically noticed.  Many people feel betrayed now that we live in the information world as they become aware of how their trust has been betrayed.   I could think of much worse outcomes than dealing with and working out simple anger.






juliaoceania -> RE: America: The Grim Truth (5/20/2011 7:15:55 PM)

quote:

That is to say that anger may have been the motivation for his paper but the underlying causes go typically noticed.  Many people feel betrayed now that we live in the information world as they become aware of how their trust has been betrayed.   I could think of much worse outcomes than dealing with and working out simple anger.


collectively those angry people make up a movement, and that movement is moving in a direction that is not only against their own interests... it is against all of our interests




Hippiekinkster -> RE: America: The Grim Truth (5/20/2011 7:16:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.



Well ain't that special, someone who thinks he can dictate what other people think about and what they talk about... so "American"[8|]
Yeah, same old moronic cliche. Real deep thinking there. See why I have him on block? Besides the fact that he thinks it's cool to denigrate people with disabilities.




Real0ne -> RE: America: The Grim Truth (5/20/2011 7:28:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

That is to say that anger may have been the motivation for his paper but the underlying causes go typically noticed.  Many people feel betrayed now that we live in the information world as they become aware of how their trust has been betrayed.   I could think of much worse outcomes than dealing with and working out simple anger.


collectively those angry people make up a movement, and that movement is moving in a direction that is not only against their own interests... it is against all of our interests


you have me at a disadvantage because I was not able to hear the details of his thesis.  Thats always the difficult line to find, where ones interests diminish and anothers become predominate.

As a sidenote interest is sort of a dirty word with me as it is an aggregation that in law gave anyone the opportunity to stomp on what was once clearly delineated rights.

The problem everyone runs into is determining what interests are best for the long term future that least infringes on perceived rights.  illusions that they are now days.




TheHeretic -> RE: America: The Grim Truth (5/20/2011 7:38:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Well ain't that special, someone who thinks he can dictate what other people think about and what they talk about... so "American"[8|]


Julia, why don't you just hide my posts until you learn to respond to more than my avatar, and your holier-than-thou assumptions about people you don't agree with?

My statement bears no relation to your interpretation.




TheHeretic -> RE: America: The Grim Truth (5/20/2011 7:46:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Besides the fact that he thinks it's cool to denigrate people with disabilities.



Really, Hippie? Really? Seems like I pointed out that trying to find a more positive outlook on life might be more beneficial in your health struggles, than viewing the world as an angry, bitter little man, so strung out on opiates that you equate the pain medication with the condition.

By all means, keep me on block. You aren't a happy person, and I don't miss you.




tj444 -> RE: America: The Grim Truth (5/20/2011 8:03:20 PM)

From my personal experience and viewpoint, I tend to agree with much of what is said but the reality is that most Americans dont want to hear it, let alone believe any of it. And that is their right, I guess. [8|]




juliaoceania -> RE: America: The Grim Truth (5/21/2011 7:27:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

From my personal experience and viewpoint, I tend to agree with much of what is said but the reality is that most Americans dont want to hear it, let alone believe any of it. And that is their right, I guess. [8|]



I wasn't aware that we had the constitution right to be uninformed....lol




Icarys -> RE: America: The Grim Truth (5/21/2011 7:41:39 AM)

quote:

I've never seen a study, but my sense is that these are people who feel really aggrieved. These people think, "I've done everything right all my life, I'm a god-fearing Christian, I'm white, I'm male, I've worked hard, and I carry a gun.

Yeah he's got a good grip..lol

Why I was just thinking those things! He must be gifted with special sight. Holy hell, what a visionary.




xssve -> RE: America: The Grim Truth (5/21/2011 9:27:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

The reason why we cannot organize people who listen to Rush and friends, they do not want to hear what we have to say. If you tell them that it is the system, the rich capitalists, it is a structural problem, those are some tough pills to swallow. It takes thought instead of reaction to change such a system, and reaction is always so much easier and it takes little mental effort. The answers are black and white, and it removes the complexity of the situation.
That's about right, in fact they tell you straight out not to listen to anybody else, that's part of the thing, they do the same thing on the CBN, "it's the devil, they're going to lure you into sin", blah, blah.

Lead me not into temptation, I can find it myself.

It was de Tocqueville who said:

"In the United States the majority undertakes to supply a multitude of ready-made opinions for the use of individuals, who are thus relieved from the necessity of forming opinions of their own"

Goes for false majorities too.






juliaoceania -> RE: America: The Grim Truth (5/21/2011 9:30:28 AM)

quote:

"In the United States the majority undertakes to supply a multitude of ready-made opinions for the use of individuals, who are thus relieved from the necessity of forming opinions of their own"


And it doesn't help that most everything massed produced by the media is made for the consumption of people who have the reading and comprehension level of a 12 year old.




xssve -> RE: America: The Grim Truth (5/21/2011 9:40:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

I've never seen a study, but my sense is that these are people who feel really aggrieved. These people think, "I've done everything right all my life, I'm a god-fearing Christian, I'm white, I'm male, I've worked hard, and I carry a gun.

Yeah he's got a good grip..lol

Why I was just thinking those things! He must be gifted with special sight. Holy hell, what a visionary.

They're called AWM's, Angry White Men, and what they can't quite figure out is that the whole thing was turned upside down not by Liberals, but by Reagan and supply side economics in the Eighties, that shifted the economic dynamic from a debtor economy to a creditor economy - Kevin Phillips addresses the whole thing in "The Politics of Rich and Poor".

Remember how they're always talking about "wealth redistribution" w/regard to taxation, when in fact, they're been redistributing wealth upwards through monetary policy since supply side economics was first implanted - it's a basic tenant of supply side theory.

Leaving taxes aside for a moment, the metric here is the distribution of profit, i.e., what share of profit goes to inputs, what share to labor, and what share to management compensation and what share to shareholders.

Increasingly since then, the share of profit going to management and shareholders has risen steadily, while the share (of your surplus labor) going to labor, steadily shrinking.

Taxation isn't the only way to redistribute wealth, in fact at that point, taxation increasingly becomes a means of correcting the distortions in the labor market caused by those supply side monetary and fiscal policies - that's how you get socialism.

They will never talk about that, you have to dig pretty hard to even find the numbers, and even mention "labor theory of value" and get ready for a total shitstorm.

This was all addressed by Adam Smith in Wealth of Nations, and it's really pretty straightforward, but they make it sound so damn complicated, most people just give up.




Phoenixpower -> RE: America: The Grim Truth (5/21/2011 9:51:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

An essay by an expat:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25166.htm

And I cannot disagree. I've been to 16 different countries, and the best quality of life I have seen is Germany.


I haven't read all of it yet as I am quite busy right now but I do agree that I do value the quality of life in Germany since I left it some years ago and am looking forward to my move back home [:)]

It's certainly true that I do value the healthcare at home as well as the fact that you don't even need a degree to earn a pretty good living without killing yourself with overtime...as we have pretty good apprenticeships at home which do pay well, enabling you to live a comfortable life and to go on holidays, yes.

And if you do a degree...you pay 1000 euro per year (not per term) which is way cheaper than it is in the UK and the US...and only got introduced about five years ago, as until then it was completely free of charge.

Mr. A was an american who lived in Germany for a few years when we met in person and he enjoyed the slower pace of living...if I would have never lived abroad i would not really have been able to understand what he was talking about, but having lived in the UK now for seven years, I do know what he means.







bighappygoth39 -> RE: America: The Grim Truth (5/21/2011 9:54:14 AM)

That's a bit of a let down: I was hoping the "grim truth" about America was going to be that it's still here and the rapture hasn't happened.

"The man from Mars has stopped eating cars..."




xssve -> RE: America: The Grim Truth (5/21/2011 9:54:58 AM)

Truth is, and everybody knows it - if you're working your ass off all the time and still can't make ends meet, while others are swimmin' in it without lifting a finger, somethin' is funky in Denmark.

They tell you it's taxes, Mexicans, ect., blah, blah, but it's all Red Herrings - you need to pay less attention to what they're saying, and more attention to what they're not saying.




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