RE: Barnes and Noble censors image of androgynous model. (Full Version)

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DeviantlyD -> RE: Barnes and Noble censors image of androgynous model. (5/21/2011 5:56:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

This is bad business because opaque packaging doesn't let you provoke any kind of interest in your product.



I don't know about you, but it would certainly pique my curiosity over what was being covered up.



FullCircle -> RE: Barnes and Noble censors image of androgynous model. (5/21/2011 5:56:54 PM)

It asks the question why topless men are considered less explicit than topless women in certain societies but some seem to have missed this point and would instead like to believe it was intended for other nefarious means such as the sexualisation of the young.



DeviantlyD -> RE: Barnes and Noble censors image of androgynous model. (5/21/2011 5:59:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: popularDemand

Like Foyles?

pD


Having never been to Foyles, I can't say for sure. However, based on what there is on their web site, I'd say probably.



VaguelyCurious -> RE: Barnes and Noble censors image of androgynous model. (5/22/2011 1:05:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

some seem to have missed this point and would instead like to believe it was intended for other nefarious means such as the sexualisation of the young.

Several people looked at the image and saw a young girl at first glance. You don't think the magazine was aware of that before they put it on the cover? Do you not realise how carefully they choose a cover image? The cover image of a magazine seriously affects its sales - they consider every possible angle of it, and every aspect of it that makes it to the final version is deliberate. If you see someone waiflike to the point of apparent pubescence, that's what they meant to be there. Seriously, are you that naive?

I didn't say its purpose was the sexualisation of the young - you are putting words into my mouth. Do not do that, please. Its purpose is the titillation of adults using a childlike image. And that's not ok where kids can see it.

<ed for prepositions>



needlesandpins -> RE: Barnes and Noble censors image of androgynous model. (5/22/2011 1:29:39 AM)

i agree with VC on this. only the name made me think that i was maybe going to see a male. however, had i not known his name i would have thought i was looking at a very young girl. i then googled him as i wanted to see if this was his usual 'style' there are tons of pics of him and he looks like a girl in all of them. he has nothing about him that makes him look male, he looks like a prepubecent girl about to sprout breasts. if i'd been shown some of those pics and asked to say how old he is i would have said he's a 13ish year old girl made up to look older.

he's 18 i think, but very much photo'd as a girl and sexualised as any other woman in the market would be. he modeled for jean paul gaultier, i think, as both a man and a woman. gaultier himself is well known for using models who are very androgynous.

i just don't like the fact that he very much looks like a young girl. this is not a pic of an obvious man made up as a woman. there is a difference as far as what those images portray to an awful lot of people, be that right or wrong. i have no problem with him modeling as a woman, cudos to him for being pretty enough, and i hope mentally stable enough, to do it and make money from it.

needles



NocturnalStalker -> RE: Barnes and Noble censors image of androgynous model. (5/22/2011 4:26:40 AM)

If that is how a woman looks like to some people I hope you don't live near a school.



ParappaTheDapper -> RE: Barnes and Noble censors image of androgynous model. (5/22/2011 4:55:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Perhaps they should cater for the people that are actually going to buy rather than the ones that find a reason to object to anything trending away from the norm? It's a thought provoking image similar to what you are hoping to be confronted with when you visit art galleries. I don't see the big deal, it's a complete over reaction.

They don't cater for my whims I'm not their target audience but in terms of this publication probably nor is some conservative housewife with kid in tow. This is bad business because opaque packaging doesn't let you provoke any kind of interest in your product.



After all the media attention? This magazine wont have too, people will flock in just to buy it.


Yeah. I don't know what Dossier's circulation is off hand, and I don't know exactly how many units they move off racks, but it's traditionally very low. It's an expensive, prestige publication with very limited mass market appeal. I think I have a copy someplace that a boutique crammed into a bag when I bought a scarf for a girlfriend. My stylist keeps a copy flopped insouciantly on his table in the waiting area. This minor controversy will be good for sales, for what little that's worth since high sales volume are not almost surely not part of Dossier's market plan.

It's great for the model's career, though. I mean Pejic is working with Gautier so obviously his career is already in the stratosphere but this is still getting his name and his look out there!





needlesandpins -> RE: Barnes and Noble censors image of androgynous model. (5/22/2011 5:05:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

If that is how a woman looks like to some people I hope you don't live near a school.




that's my point, he doesn't look like a woman, he looks like a prepubecent school girl made up to look like a woman. the fashion industry have been done for that before, using very young girls made up to look older and told to stop. i see no reason why they should get away with it because he's a guy.

and yes i do live near a school and yes i'm a mum. it's bloody shocking the way some parents let their little girls dress.

needles



FullCircle -> RE: Barnes and Noble censors image of androgynous model. (5/22/2011 5:08:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious
I didn't say its purpose was the sexualisation of the young - you are putting words into my mouth. Do not do that, please. Its purpose is the titillation of adults using a childlike image. And that's not ok where kids can see it.

I wasn't really referring to you or anything you wrote so I don't understand how I'm putting words in your mouth? Just another example of how your perception is yours alone.

It would be fair to say I don't share your certainty in terms of what that cover was intended to do.



Jeffff -> RE: Barnes and Noble censors image of androgynous model. (5/22/2011 5:35:41 AM)

Perception is reality.



VaguelyCurious -> RE: Barnes and Noble censors image of androgynous model. (5/22/2011 7:03:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
I wasn't really referring to you or anything you wrote so I don't understand how I'm putting words in your mouth? Just another example of how your perception is yours alone.

It would be fair to say I don't share your certainty in terms of what that cover was intended to do.

I made an assumption based on you parroting my words. If that was wrong then I'm sorry.

You may not share my certainty. But would you agree that the image is sexual? Would you agree that the dude looks like a lady (as they say)? And a kind of young one at that?

Perhaps you have a higher opinion of their intentions than I do. Either that makes me cynical or you naive, or possibly both. But I'm not a particularly cynical person, and I'm inclined to think it's your perception that's at fault here, given that sexualised images of deliberately young-looking models are a common feature of that end of the arts/fashion world. It's an aesthetic choice that the fashion industry is pretty open about...



FullCircle -> RE: Barnes and Noble censors image of androgynous model. (5/22/2011 8:39:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious
would you agree that the image is sexual?

Yes
quote:


Would you agree that the dude looks like a lady (as they say)?

From the neck up perhaps.
quote:


And a kind of young one at that?

No, I made no judgement about his age from that image assuming by law he'd meet the minimum age for such work.
quote:


But I'm not a particularly cynical person, and I'm inclined to think it's your perception that's at fault here,

Naturally.



FullCircle -> RE: Barnes and Noble censors image of androgynous model. (5/22/2011 8:47:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff
Perception is reality.

Not always, attribution theory is a clear example of when it isn't



kalikshama -> RE: Barnes and Noble censors image of androgynous model. (5/22/2011 8:52:58 AM)

But 19-year old Andrej Pejic is not your usual male model as you can see from these pictures showing his two starring turns on the catwalk this past week for Jean Paul Gaultier.

The gorgeous blonde Veronica Lake ringer in gold and furs at Gaultier's menswear show? Pejic. The beautiful hourglass bride at the finale of Gaultier's haute couture show in Paris, resplendent in ruffled tulle and feather headdress? Pejic again.

[image]http://ris.fashion.telegraph.co.uk/RichImageService.svc/imagecontent/1/TMG8285904/m/gaultier-main_1812565a.jpg[/image]

Pejic declined to answer a question asking whether he identified as LGBTQ—and, when asked if he has a boyfriend or a girlfriend, responded: “I have Paris and I have dessert wine.”

When he dresses himself, Pejic occasionally chooses to wear heels and makeup. “I like to dress up but I’m not so concerned with looking very sexy, it’s really more the art of dressing,” he says. He has not had any kind of surgery—but wouldn’t rule it out. “I’ve never had any operations,” he says. “I’m not opposed to any plastic surgery, but until now I haven’t had any.”

Here's some pics of him modeling men's clothes, which he does not do as well, IMO: http://www.malemodelscene.net/ad-campaigns/andrej-pejic-marc-marc-jacobs-spring-summer-2011/





VaguelyCurious -> RE: Barnes and Noble censors image of androgynous model. (5/22/2011 8:53:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

quote:


And a kind of young one at that?

No, I made no judgement about his age from that image assuming by law he'd meet the minimum age for such work.

So don't make a rational judgement - go back, take an actual look at the photo and tell me that doesn't look like a child. Magazines are not sold on rational judgements, they are sold on appearances.



needlesandpins -> RE: Barnes and Noble censors image of androgynous model. (5/22/2011 9:32:16 AM)

i'm just taking a quick break from gaming (it's not something i usually do this gaming lark, but little robot has me hooked lol) and thought i'd catch up with this.

having looked at the link above, modeling male clothes.....uuummmmmm......still looks like a girl trying to wear boys clothes.

dude looks like a girl and i see why the want him covered. it makes no difference what his sexuality or orientations are. he looks like a girl. he doesn't look like a skinny man, his pecs look like a girl about to sprout breasts.

needles



LadyPact -> RE: Barnes and Noble censors image of androgynous model. (5/22/2011 9:57:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Perhaps they should cater for the people that are actually going to buy rather than the ones that find a reason to object to anything trending away from the norm? It's a thought provoking image similar to what you are hoping to be confronted with when you visit art galleries. I don't see the big deal, it's a complete over reaction.

They don't cater for my whims I'm not their target audience but in terms of this publication probably nor is some conservative housewife with kid in tow. This is bad business because opaque packaging doesn't let you provoke any kind of interest in your product.


I think the highlighted above is where you're making your mistake.  Barnes and Noble doesn't just have to concern themselves with the folks who would buy the magazine.  They have to concern themselves with the customers who are buying anything. 

I never heard of the guy before this thread.  However, yes, he does look like a pre-pubescent girl trying to look like an adult woman.  If that's his "look" cool, but had I seen that cover, I'd have thought it was a chick without a shirt.


Edited because I missed a word.



DesFIP -> RE: Barnes and Noble censors image of androgynous model. (5/22/2011 10:10:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
I guess it is provocative so I can understand their concern but really I wonder if its more about him being a transvestite in a sexualised image than actually being mistaken for a topless woman?


He's a transvestite? News to me.You would have to know that this was a sexualized transvestite image to be concerned on that account. I bet most customers have never heard of the model nor seen a picture of him. Most will be like me, walk past, see this pic and be affronted.

Because as I said, the image I googled does not appear to be male, judging by the image only I would have been sure this was a female just on the cusp on puberty who had bumps only and wouldn't develop breasts for another year. A nude preteen. And as a mother, I would have been the first to go up to the customer service desk and raise a fuss.

I would not have picked up the magazine and bothered to read the article to make sure I was wrong.



FullCircle -> RE: Barnes and Noble censors image of androgynous model. (5/22/2011 10:27:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
I think the highlighted above is where you're making your mistake. Barnes and Noble doesn't just have to concern themselves with the folks who would the magazine. They have to concern themselves with the customers who are buying anything.

I don't know that's true, it's certainly how it should be, however I assume everyone has their target audience; the people they are trying to get the attention of. Take for example technology or gaming publications these often contain overt sexual imagery on the cover. This imagery has nothing to do the latest HDD technology or gaming release but everything to do with the fact they are aiming it at adolescent males. Organisations have a good idea, from market research, of the demographics interested in certain things and they try to compound that rather than using a non targeted approach.
quote:


I never heard of the guy before this thread. However, yes, he does look like a pre-pubescent girl trying to look like an adult woman. If that's his "look" cool, but had I seen that cover, I'd have thought it was a chick without a shirt.


I've taken another look, do they look muscular? I don't know.


edit: -like



VaguelyCurious -> RE: Barnes and Noble censors image of androgynous model. (5/22/2011 10:48:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

I've taken another look, do they look muscular? I don't know.

I've no idea of your background (or even your gender), so I don't know how much time you've spent with girls whose breasts are just starting to develop. But I went to an all girls school, and hey! I'm a girl too, so let me tell you, if you don't know: that's what developing breasts look like at the beginning.



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