RE: Netanyahu:Israel ready for "painful compromises" for peace (Full Version)

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juliaoceania -> RE: Netanyahu:Israel ready for "painful compromises" for peace (5/25/2011 2:03:40 PM)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement_timeline#2010

March
Israel announces plans to construct 1600 settler homes in the Ramat Shlomo settlement in East Jerusalem during United States Vice President Joe Biden's visit to the region. Biden condemns the decision saying "The substance and timing of the announcement, particularly with the launching of proximity talks, is precisely the kind of step that undermines the trust we need . . . and runs counter to the constructive discussions I've had in Israel." [27]

United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon stated "The world has condemned Israel's expansion plans in East Jerusalem. Let us be clear: all settlement activity is illegal anywhere in occupied territory, and this must stop." He spoke both for the United Nations and the Middle East Quartet.[28]

The mayor of Jerusalem unveiled a plan to demolish 22 Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem to make way for a public park and tourist site.[29]



mnottertail -> RE: Netanyahu:Israel ready for "painful compromises" for peace (5/25/2011 2:05:33 PM)

there was no last.  they're building them now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/23/world/middleeast/23settle.html



juliaoceania -> RE: Netanyahu:Israel ready for "painful compromises" for peace (5/25/2011 2:18:37 PM)

They are planning future settlements, complete with demo crews to rip down existing Palestinian homes.... lovely government there.




tweakabelle -> RE: Netanyahu:Israel ready for "painful compromises" for peace (5/25/2011 2:23:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

Like I have said before, building settlements while supposedly negotiating peace is what we call "bad faith negotiations". It shows what Israel's true intent is. It shows that they say they want peace, but they are LYING. You do not put civilians in a settlement unless you want to stay there.


How long ago was the last settlement built? I'm curious about that.




Perhaps this will help clarify what the settlement movement is about, and why Netanyahu's 'commitment' to a two-state solution cannot be trusted.

"We've [settlers] tripled ourselves, to 325,000 [since the 1993 Oslo Peace Accords]. With East Jerusalem, that pumps it up to 550,000. My vision is 1 million Jews living in Judea and Samaria, putting an end to the notion that we can have a Palestinian state in the heart of Israel."

"Netanyahu was elected on a platform against Palestinian statehood and pro-settlements. I know because I helped him. We need to help Netanyahu back and help him keep to his beliefs and promises. "

"Netanyahu agreed to a Palestinian state, but he doesn't believe in a Palestinian state. If we were going to agree to a Palestinian state, then it makes sense to have a moratorium. But that's all nonsense."

Extracts from an interview with Naftali Bennett, Netanyahu's former chief of staff and the recently named director-general of the settler advocacy group the Yesha Council in an interview, LA Times 29 Aug 2010
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/aug/29/world/la-fg-israel-settlement-qa-20100829

BTW Israel committed to ceasing settlement activity as part of the Roadmap to Peace in 2003. It has never honoured that commitment except for short spells.

Googling "Netanyahu cannot be trusted" gets about 953,000 results (0.08 seconds)



SternSkipper -> RE: Netanyahu:Israel ready for "painful compromises" for peace (5/25/2011 2:43:47 PM)

quote:

The second issue, is the Palestinian "right of return", which the Palestinians would have to give up on, since taking in millions of Arabs into Israel, would be effectively the end of Israel and you can't very well expect a country to sign it's own death sentence. it kind of negates the point of signing a peace treaty. the most the Palestinians would get, is some sort of monetary compensation.


Has anyone proposed adequate compensation in lieu of this 'right' perhaps payed to the new Palestinian nation for development purposes?





juliaoceania -> RE: Netanyahu:Israel ready for "painful compromises" for peace (5/25/2011 3:01:41 PM)

They do not only want to keep the Palestinians from returning to their lands in Israel, they fear them going to Palestinian territory, too.

There is photographic evidence of the Palestinian diaspora... the Israelis know that there is a case for some Palestinians having the right of return. I do not think that they should be forced to take payment for not exercising the right to return

quote:

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) article 13 states that "[e]veryone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each State. Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country." (emphasis added). There is disagreement as to what this actually means in practice as well as whether country refers to a state or a specific area of land. In addition, the change from State to country from the first sentence to the second clouds the issue.
Much of the controversy surrounding such a right, however, derives from disagreement surrounding what in UDHR article 13 is referred to as "his own". Because many countries are nation states predicated on the right to national self-determination, such countries often identify a special link between them and persons identified with the nation, or people, whose self-determination that country enables. National laws implementing a "right of return" tend to be predicated on that link. Because they give people of a certain background preferential immigration, however, such laws are controversial, especially where they are perceived to be at the expense of other people who want to immigrate or return.



PROMINENTtool -> RE: Netanyahu:Israel ready for "painful compromises" for peace (5/25/2011 3:22:03 PM)

quote:

Has anyone proposed adequate compensation in lieu of this 'right' perhaps payed to the new Palestinian nation for development purposes?


The issue had been brought up a number of times, however, in my opinion, they should get nothing.

for starters. a similar number of Jews living in Arab countries, were persecuted and forced to leave with nothing but a suitcase, while many of them were quite wealthy. however, Israel absorbed these people, while the Arabs treat the Palestinians who fled to their countries, as second class "citizens", limiting many of their rights, so they will not settle in and continue to hold the dream of returning to their homeland, despite the fact that there are already 4th generation Palestinians, which are still considered as refugees, which is another problem, i'll return to later.

So, what we had here, is an exchange of populations, where one sided accepted their refugees and the other side treats them like dirt and useses them as a battering ram.

As for the matter of who exactly is a refugee, well, in general, all refugees around the world, are cared for under the UNHRC and according to that UN body, if a person flees to another country, he is a refugee, but if he has children born in the country he fled to, those children become a citizen of that country and are not considered as refuges. however, it seems that the Palestinians are the "royalty" of refuges, being the only group of people with their own UN body to care for, just for them, the UNRWA. and according to UNRWA, even the great grandchildren of the actual Palestinians who fled to other countries in 1948, are still considered to be refugees, so they are the only group of refugees to have their numbers grow exponentially, despite the conflict which caused the refugee problem in the first place, being over for more than 60 years ago.

So who do you compenstate? the original 750,000 refugees from 1948? or to the millions they have become now? in my opinion, the Arab states who stole Jewish property should give money to the Palestinians and everyone will call it even, but obviously that's not going to happen...



SternSkipper -> RE: Netanyahu:Israel ready for "painful compromises" for peace (5/25/2011 3:33:33 PM)

quote:

They do not only want to keep the Palestinians from returning to their lands in Israel, they fear them going to Palestinian territory, too.

There is photographic evidence of the Palestinian diaspora... the Israelis know that there is a case for some Palestinians having the right of return. I do not think that they should be forced to take payment for not exercising the right to return


Okay, great but my question was has compensation been offered? That's what I asked.
And PLEASE, I've read UN Article 13. So respect that I didn't sign up for a class here.

CLEARLY Israel is going to have to give in to a number of items they have traditionally felt they are entitled to and Palestine will have to be giving up on several of theirs. But it's the way it comes about that interests me. When the Palestinian stae goes up in front of the UN, it's preety clear at this point there are sufficient votes to be recognized (least that;s what it sounds like in the media). What I am trying to sort out here is will it happen before?.Or, will they first recognize statehood, the lines get drawn and years of new skirmishes start. Don't answer it, I kind of know the answer on that part already. I just want to know if compensation has or will be proposed?

 



PROMINENTtool -> RE: Netanyahu:Israel ready for "painful compromises" for peace (5/25/2011 3:52:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper
I just want to know if compensation has or will be proposed?


As i've stated in my previous post, yes.

The issue of compensation instead of the right of return, has been suggested in every Israeli-Palestinian peace talks, since 1991.



WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Netanyahu:Israel ready for "painful compromises" for peace (5/25/2011 4:04:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PROMINENTtool
The issue of compensation instead of the right of return, has been suggested in every Israeli-Palestinian peace talks, since 1991.

Yeah it was proposed as lately as 2007/8 in an effort for peace with Abbas in negotiations with Olmert http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3382162,00.html - worth noting Olmert had also agreed to the PA counter-proposal of taking in 100,000 refugees into Israel.



SternSkipper -> RE: Netanyahu:Israel ready for "painful compromises" for peace (5/25/2011 4:19:11 PM)

quote:

there was no last. they're building them now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/23/world/middleeast/23settle.html


Okay, so there are a couple active projects underway now. Good that is what I needed to know.




Aneirin -> RE: Netanyahu:Israel ready for "painful compromises" for peace (5/25/2011 4:28:26 PM)

quote:

The second issue, is the Palestinian "right of return", which the Palestinians would have to give up on, since taking in millions of Arabs into Israel, would be effectively the end of Israel and you can't very well expect a country to sign it's own death sentence. it kind of negates the point of signing a peace treaty. the most the Palestinians would get, is some sort of monetary compensation.


Whoever said they would have to give up on it,the Israelis? For does it not occur that if Israel housed both Jewish and Palestinian peoples,any attack by others outside might have the effect that outside attack might be curtailed for fear of killing their own people, a human shield if you like, but those Palestinian people who have the right of return, might just be the thing, if they were to be given equal status as people, not their ethnicity or belief, as anything else just adds fuel to the fact that Israel is a racist state that forget their history all too easily.



tweakabelle -> RE: Netanyahu:Israel ready for "painful compromises" for peace (5/25/2011 4:31:00 PM)

From WOTF's link:
"Saudi Arabia, the United States, and Israel have recently held secret talks to formulate a new diplomatic-financial initiative aimed at resolving the Palestinian refugee problem, by offering compensation to those willing to stay in their countries of residence."

This report appears to referring to a plan that was at discussion stage only. Whether this matter has ever been agreed in negotiations between the Israelis and the Palestinians is unclear to me. I haven't seen that reported.

Compensation has never been offered to the refugees themselves. In the only poll I have ever seen on the subject, something like 90% of Palestinians preferred cash compensation to exercising their right of return to their homes in Israel. That poll was held in 2003 IIRC.



WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Netanyahu:Israel ready for "painful compromises" for peace (5/25/2011 4:41:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
From WOTF's link:
"Saudi Arabia, the United States, and Israel have recently held secret talks to formulate a new diplomatic-financial initiative aimed at resolving the Palestinian refugee problem, by offering compensation to those willing to stay in their countries of residence."

This report appears to referring to a plan that was at discussion stage only. Whether this matter has ever been agreed in negotiations between the Israelis and the Palestinians is unclear to me. I haven't seen that reported.

Compensation has never been offered to the refugees themselves. In the only poll I have ever seen on the subject, something like 90% of Palestinians preferred cash compensation to exercising their right of return to their homes in Israel. That poll was held in 2003 IIRC.

Compensation for refugees and their descendants wasn't offered directly to the refugees but was an important part of the negotiations with Abbas/PA in 2008. It was also a feature of Camp David where Israel would fund their resettlement along with some other countries.



PROMINENTtool -> RE: Netanyahu:Israel ready for "painful compromises" for peace (5/25/2011 4:50:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

quote:

The second issue, is the Palestinian "right of return", which the Palestinians would have to give up on, since taking in millions of Arabs into Israel, would be effectively the end of Israel and you can't very well expect a country to sign it's own death sentence. it kind of negates the point of signing a peace treaty. the most the Palestinians would get, is some sort of monetary compensation.


Whoever said they would have to give up on it,the Israelis? For does it not occur that if Israel housed both Jewish and Palestinian peoples,any attack by others outside might have the effect that outside attack might be curtailed for fear of killing their own people, a human shield if you like, but those Palestinian people who have the right of return, might just be the thing, if they were to be given equal status as people, not their ethnicity or belief, as anything else just adds fuel to the fact that Israel is a racist state that forget their history all too easily.


There are already over a million and a half Arabs living in Israel, out of a general population of just over seven million Israelis. Arabs have been living in Israel since Israel was created, want to count the wars and terror attacks since then, with me? aside from that, absorbing millions of Arabs who have been bred to hate Israel since the day they were born, would completly change the demographics of Israel and send the idea of a Jewish homeland into the trash can.

If it's annihilation or continued conflict, obviously Israel would choose the second option, as no sane nation, will willingly sign it's own death sentance. so yes, israel says it's not going to happen, the Palestinians can disagree with it, but it's not going to change anything.



tweakabelle -> RE: Netanyahu:Israel ready for "painful compromises" for peace (5/25/2011 5:34:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PROMINENTtool

quote:

Has anyone proposed adequate compensation in lieu of this 'right' perhaps payed to the new Palestinian nation for development purposes?


The issue had been brought up a number of times, however, in my opinion, they should get nothing.

for starters. a similar number of Jews living in Arab countries, were persecuted and forced to leave with nothing but a suitcase, while many of them were quite wealthy. however, Israel absorbed these people, while the Arabs treat the Palestinians who fled to their countries, as second class "citizens", limiting many of their rights, so they will not settle in and continue to hold the dream of returning to their homeland, despite the fact that there are already 4th generation Palestinians, which are still considered as refugees, which is another problem, i'll return to later.

So, what we had here, is an exchange of populations, where one sided accepted their refugees and the other side treats them like dirt and useses them as a battering ram.





The right to return to one's home (or ancestral home) is a right. It is a right that underpins the existence of Israel - the right of return of Jewish people, many of who have had no physical connection with the land for centuries, to return to their homeland. Rights are not subject to a statute of limitations. (Otherwise those 'returned' Jews would have lost their right to return centuries ago)

Rights are the same for all people - Israeli Palestinian you and me. Palestinian refugee rights cannot be 'swapped' for the rights of Jews said to be expelled from Arab countries. Palestinian rights exist until they are exercised or surrendered independently of everything else. Just as you and I have a right to inhabit our homelands independently of all other factors, inalienably. Those aggrieved Jews have claims against the countries that expelled them, not the Palestinian people. It is a bizarre claim to hold the Palestinians accountable for the actions of say, Tunisians or Iraqis.

To me it seems impossible to form opinions such as those advanced above if one values the rights of all people equally. To form such views, one must place a lesser value on Palestinian rights than one places on the rights of others. To argue it is an "exchange of populations" issue extinguishes Palestinian rights without consent or even reference to the right holders. I'm sure the writer would never accept that in relation to their own rights nor would I accept that in relation to mine. Clearly Palestinian rights are given a lesser value.

In the same vein, to treat all Arabs as one collective unit is to consider them on purely racial grounds. It ignores the fact that there are many diverse Arab nationalities. Australians, Germans and Canadians are all members of the same racial group - Caucasian - but no one would dare suggest they are responsible for each others' welfare. Such a proposal would be dismissed as preposterous. Yet we are being asked to consider it seriously in the case of Arabs.

So, we are left with a seriously flawed proposal to extinguish Palestinian rights to the benefit of a nation populated to a significant extent through the exercise of the exact same rights denied to Palestinians .......



PROMINENTtool -> RE: Netanyahu:Israel ready for "painful compromises" for peace (5/25/2011 6:18:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
The right to return to one's home (or ancestral home) is a right. It is a right that underpins the existence of Israel - the right of return of Jewish people, many of who have had no physical connection with the land for centuries, to return to their homeland. Rights are not subject to a statute of limitations. (Otherwise those 'returned' Jews would have lost their right to return centuries ago)

Rights are the same for all people - Israeli Palestinian you and me. Palestinian refugee rights cannot be 'swapped' for the rights of Jews said to be expelled from Arab countries. Palestinian rights exist until they are exercised or surrendered independently of everything else. Just as you and I have a right to inhabit our homelands independently of all other factors, inalienably. Those aggrieved Jews have claims against the countries that expelled them, not the Palestinian people. It is a bizarre claim to hold the Palestinians accountable for the actions of say, Tunisians or Iraqis.

To me it seems impossible to form opinions such as those advanced above if one values the rights of all people equally. To form such views, one must place a lesser value on Palestinian rights than one places on the rights of others. To argue it is an "exchange of populations" issue extinguishes Palestinian rights without consent or even reference to the right holders. I'm sure the writer would never accept that in relation to their own rights nor would I accept that in relation to mine. Clearly Palestinian rights are given a lesser value.

In the same vein, to treat all Arabs as one collective unit is to consider them on purely racial grounds. It ignores the fact that there are many diverse Arab nationalities. Australians, Germans and Canadians are all members of the same racial group - Caucasian - but no one would dare suggest they are responsible for each others' welfare. Such a proposal would be dismissed as preposterous. Yet we are being asked to consider it seriously in the case of Arabs.

So, we are left with a seriously flawed proposal to extinguish Palestinian rights to the benefit of a nation populated to a significant extent through the exercise of the exact same rights denied to Palestinians .......


You speak as if the right of return is some sort of international law, it's not an actual right, it's simply the name given to a demand, by the Palestinians.

At the end of the day, the UN offered to create two states, one Jewish and one Arab (yes, Arab and not Palestinian, at that time, the Jews were the ones being referred to as Palestinians). the Jews agreed, and the Arabs refused and preferred to try and take it all by force.

They lost.

Modern Israel shouldn't meet it's demise, due to bad decision making, by the Arab leadership, over 60 years ago. they've made their bed and now they are sleeping in it. Israel is offering a compromise, a middle ground. and that's what peace talks are about. even if you believe it's right, people sharing your opinions, are part of the reasons there is no peace, as wheter you believe it's right or not, obviously Israel will not agree to cease to exist as part of a peace treaty. Israel is doing just fine now, with a good life quality and strong economy. Israelis aren't going to wake up one day and say : "hey! let's commit a national suicide!". and so this conflict will simply continue to perpetuate itself.

And now, let's talk about reality for a second, even the Palestinian leadership doesn't have a real interest in the right of return to their own territory - Gaza Strip with 1.6 million people and the West Bank with 2.5 millions, cannot absorb millions of people. their fragile economies would collapse in an instant, so having the Palestinian's living abroad, agreeing to accept compensation and staying where they are, except for a trickle here and there, should be their interest too.



SternSkipper -> RE: Netanyahu:Israel ready for "painful compromises" for peace (5/25/2011 6:53:43 PM)

quote:

As i've stated in my previous post, yes.
The issue of compensation instead of the right of return, has been suggested in every Israeli-Palestinian peace talks, since 1991.


Jesus... how hard is present tense for you guys to understand.....no offense  intended, but I knew I would be talking to a friend in DC tonight during the Bruins game and I needed two pieces of information so I could ask someone who actually has a current view of the events unfolding.That's all. Course now that that the Darlings of the denture croed have regained the lead, we're going to talk later.
   I would rather know we're headed to the Stanley cup than know what the prognosis on Netanyahu's visit is from inside the beltway.
Go Bruins





tweakabelle -> RE: Netanyahu:Israel ready for "painful compromises" for peace (5/25/2011 7:09:13 PM)

I don't know what reality you inhabit Prominent, but this is the one I inhabit.

After North Korea, Israel is the world's most loathed State. It has worked hard to achieve this status - 40+ years of brutal military occupation, sabotaging peace talks, barbarity in Gaza numerous atrocities and war crimes , ... it's a long long list. You can agree or disagree but that is the way Israel is seen outside of the US and Israel itself.

Israel has one sole friend in the world - the US. Obama's impatience with Netanyahu is just one of the many signs that US support for Israel is fading. In Sept, the UN will admit Palestine as a full member. That will mean the Palestinians have sole inalienable legal right to the West Bank Gaza and Ease Jerusalem. That means the Palestinians are not going to go away. Ever. To date, time has worked in Israel's favour. That reverses in Sept. Forever.

There are 3 possible outcomes :
(i) a one-State solution. Almost no one wants this;
(ii) a two-State solution. Every one in the world wants this bar Israel
(iii) continuation of the status quo. No one wants this.

Israel has chosen theft of the West Bank over peace. Everyone in the world knows this. This is a very poor option.

Israel's sole viable long term survival strategy is a just lasting peace with Palestine, mutual prosperity and economic inter-dependence. That requires urgent compromises far more "painful" than Netanyahu is currently prepared to consider. Israel cannot survive on its own in the long term - whatever the current situation.

Survival means peace. No peace is a slow suicide option for Israel. I hope Israel chooses peace but I have no confidence that Netanyahu is prepared to pay the necessary price. If you are concerned about Israel's long term survival, I invite you to think the all the options through. There is only one viable option. The sooner Israel realises this, the better for all of us.



WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Netanyahu:Israel ready for "painful compromises" for peace (5/25/2011 7:36:36 PM)

Similar to the above, on the other thread http://www.collarchat.com/m_3682578/mpage_18/tm.htm a mo' ago Tweak said:

“Israel cannot survive occupying Palestine forever. Nor can it survive as a Jewish State for long unless it adopts a full apartheid stance. And that would only alienate the world even more. Going it alone is simply not a viable long term option.

Continuing to occupy the sovereign territory of another UN member invites sanctions, trade embargoes, boycotts, universal odium ......... The longer it puts it off, the more it will have to compromise and the harder that compromise will be, the higher the price will be. Intransigence is a suicide option. If Israel wants to survive, it has to compromise.”

Its quoted be clear folks. Israel must dismantle every settlement, returns to very vulnerable borders, allow all the refugees and their descendants (according to iffy UNRWA definitions) in, thereby loosing its Jewish majority. What does it get in return? Well it gets to keep the name "Israel" on the map I suppose!!! [8|] The prime reason for the state was Jewish self determination to avoid the vicious persecution the Jewz were subjected to for centuries, and perhaps as sort of a safety buffer should another Holocaust arise. Folks like Tweak want its citizens subject to a populace that's expressed openly more genocidal intent than any other race. Can't see it resultin' in anything other than civil war and mass genocide.



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